May I ask another potentially controversial question

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WanderingCathol

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I ask the following with all due respect.

What would have happen to a person, lets say a bishop, priest or cardinal or even a simple layperson during the middle ages ( for example) that believed that the Muslim and christians worshipped the same God and kissed the Koran so that all could see?

What would have been the punishment for such acts?
 
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WanderingCathol:
I ask the following with all due respect.

What would have happen to a person, lets say a bishop, priest or cardinal or even a simple layperson during the middle ages ( for example) that believed that the Muslim and christians worshipped the same God and kissed the Koran so that all could see?

What would have been the punishment for such acts?
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When the pope visits a foreign land, the first thing he does when he disembarks, is to kiss the ground.

In doing so, he claims that land and all of its inhabitants for Christ. This is similar to the practice of European explorers who did the same thing 500 years ago.

In kissing the Koran, the pope makes the claim for the small amount of truth contained and all those who follow it, for Christ, the King of all creation.

It’s a cultural thing that may seem odd to those who wish to disparage every action that this Vicar of Christ takes.

As far as someone doing the same in the middle ages, perhaps it would be best to make a distinction regarding their motives.

Tell me something, WC. What do you see when you look into his heart? My view is cloudy at best, but your view seems unobstructed.

Peace in Christ…Salmon
 
Gee, I must be naive or something because I don’t see the potential for controversy in that question.

Seems to me it’s a historical one. You’re asking what WOULD have been the punishment AT THAT time (defined as the Middle Ages).

Historically the Catholic Church has made mistakes…change that, the leaders of the church have made mistakes, just as recently some of our priests have made serrious mistakes - and historically they were dealt with in ways which were appropriate for their time.

I’m sorry I don’t have an answer for you, though. I just thought it was an interesting question, not controversial.

yym
 
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YinYangMom:
Gee, I must be naive or something because I don’t see the potential for controversy in that question.

Seems to me it’s a historical one. You’re asking what WOULD have been the punishment AT THAT time (defined as the Middle Ages).

Historically the Catholic Church has made mistakes…change that, the leaders of the church have made mistakes, just as recently some of our priests have made serrious mistakes - and historically they were dealt with in ways which were appropriate for their time.

I’m sorry I don’t have an answer for you, though. I just thought it was an interesting question, not controversial.

yym
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Let me put it to you this way. What would have the inqusition done to a person that claimed and did the above?

Please answer the question.
 
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Salmon:
When the pope visits a foreign land, the first thing he does when he disembarks, is to kiss the ground.

In doing so, he claims that land and all of its inhabitants for Christ. This is similar to the practice of European explorers who did the same thing 500 years ago.

In kissing the Koran, the pope makes the claim for the small amount of truth contained and all those who follow it, for Christ, the King of all creation.

It’s a cultural thing that may seem odd to those who wish to disparage every action that this Vicar of Christ takes.

As far as someone doing the same in the middle ages, perhaps it would be best to make a distinction regarding their motives.

Tell me something, WC. What do you see when you look into his heart? My view is cloudy at best, but your view seems unobstructed.

Peace in Christ…Salmon
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well the question asked was not about foreign protocols, was it?

What do you think would have happened to this person during the inquisition?
 
Frankly, the answer to your question is that there would have more than likely been an inappropriate overreaction that would have potentially led to that person being reprimanded, possibly even excommunicated. If I’m wrong, I’d happily hear otherwise. I think I’m just being honest.

There, are you happy?

Now, whatever your point is, I’m not sure. But it is probably to either condemn the previous practice or it is to condemn the actions of the current Pope.

The current Pope’s actions are not condemnable for the reasons given. Which would lead us to the fact that the previous actions may be.

Guess what? Few people dispute that there were errors in judgment made on such issues. But what’s the point? That the Church has made mistakes? Guilty.
 
Which inquisition? Under what circumstances is the Koran being kissed?

In answer to your question: Who knows? What do you think?

Scott
 
I ask the following with all due respect.
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What would have been the punishment for such acts?
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No punishment at all. Depending on the context. Let’s take each one.
that believed that the Muslim and christians worshipped the same God
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There’s nothing heretical, or even “modern” about this idea. Pope Gregory VII made the following statement to Muslim King Anazir of Maurentania:
We and you must show in a special way to the other nations an example of this charity, for we believe and confess one God, although in different ways. Many of the Roman nobility, informed by us of this grace granted to you by God, greatly admire your goodness and virtues.
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[St. Gregory VII, Letter III, 21 to Anazir (Al-Nasir), King of Mauretania PL, 148. 451A.]
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As to your other objection:
and kissed the Koran so that all could see?
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It depends on the context. A kiss means different things in different contexts and different cultures. In the Middle East, its customary to kiss a gift when its given to you, as a mark of respect and gratitude to the one giving it. Its got nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not you like the gift or apporve of it. So the Pope kissing the gift of a Koran is like saying “Thank you” to your grandmother even when you don’t like the clothes she picked out for your birthday gift.

The same gesture in a different context would be blasphemous, even sinful, if by the kiss veneration of an object of false belief is meant.

Context is everything. Don’t forget that.
 
Scott Waddell:
Which inquisition? Under what circumstances is the Koran being kissed?

In answer to your question: Who knows? What do you think?

Scott
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any inquisition!
 
I’d say that the Church isn’t ignorant and is surely “aware” of how the religion of Islam was founded.

From the New Advent website:
On his commercial journeys to Syria and Palestine (Mohammed) became acquainted with Jews and Christians and acquired an imperfect knowledge of their religion and traditions… In his fortieth year (A.D. 612), he claimed to have received a call from the Angel Gabriel and thus began his active career as the prophet of Allah and the apostle of Arabia…
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The notion of Allah in Arabic theology is substantially the same as that of God among the Jews, and also among the Christians with the exception of the Trinity which is positively excluded in the Koran “Say God is one God, the eternal God, he begetteth not, neither is he begotten and there is not any one like unto him.”
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Obviously back in the Middle Ages, they would have been aware of this – how Islam evolved from Judiasm and Christianity. But as Gomer mentioned, sure, back then there probably would have been some reaction to that… but times have changed.

As for the Pope kissing the Koran… it is true that he often kisses the ground when he arrives in a country or kisses a gift that was given to him. That is most likely the answer to that. This question was also asked one time during a Q&A period on Catholic Answers Live. The guest speaker (I can’t remember who it was) mentioned that the Pope could also have kissed the Koran for the truths that it does contain in it. It does talk about Jesus, His virgin birth, the Virgin Mary, etc… although it is obviously way off in its teachings… it does contain some (I stress “some”) truth in it that is worthy of noting.
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
No punishment at all. Depending on the context. Let’s take each one.

There’s nothing heretical, or even “modern” about this idea. Pope Gregory VII made the following statement to Muslim King Anazir of Maurentania:

As to your other objection:

It depends on the context. A kiss means different things in different contexts and different cultures. In the Middle East, its customary to kiss a gift when its given to you, as a mark of respect and gratitude to the one giving it. Its got nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not you like the gift or apporve of it. So the Pope kissing the gift of a Koran is like saying “Thank you” to your grandmother even when you don’t like the clothes she picked out for your birthday gift.

The same gesture in a different context would be blasphemous, even sinful, if by the kiss veneration of an object of false belief is meant.

Context is everything. Don’t forget that.
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You are making excuses. We all know what the outcome would have been for those guilty of such offense. They would have been executed for heresy. Their flesh would have been consumed by the fire.

But times and teachings have changed. what was heresy back then is not any longer.
 
The reason I asked which inquistion is to get clear of the erroneous idea of a capital “I” Inquisition. One of the more annoying misrepresentations of Catholicism is that there was this monolithic Inquisition that was far-reaching and powerful like the Soviet NKVD.

Answer is still the same. Don’t know. Depends on context. Conceivably nothing would happen. What do you think?

Scott
 
Boomer Sooner:
I’d say that the Church isn’t ignorant and is surely “aware” of how the religion of Islam was founded.

From the New Advent website:

Obviously back in the Middle Ages, they would have been aware of this – how Islam evolved from Judiasm and Christianity. But as Gomer mentioned, sure, back then there probably would have been some reaction to that… but times have changed.

As for the Pope kissing the Koran… it is true that he often kisses the ground when he arrives in a country or kisses a gift that was given to him. That is most likely the answer to that. This question was also asked one time during a Q&A period on Catholic Answers Live. The guest speaker (I can’t remember who it was) mentioned that the Pope could also have kissed the Koran for the truths that it does contain in it. It does talk about Jesus, His virgin birth, the Virgin Mary, etc… although it is obviously way off in its teachings… it does contain some (I stress “some”) truth in it that is worthy of noting.
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No Pope, no council, no church father, etc. would have ever said that the muslim worship the same god as christians. Or would have dreamed of kissing the koran.
 
Scott Waddell:
The reason I asked which inquistion is to get clear of the erroneous idea of a capital “I” Inquisition. One of the more annoying misrepresentations of Catholicism is that there was this monolithic Inquisition that was far-reaching and powerful like the Soviet NKVD.

Answer is still the same. Don’t know. Depends on context. Conceivably nothing would happen. What do you think?

Scott
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They would have been found guilty of heresy and executed. That is what would have happen to them.
 
Ohh I see. This really wasn’t question. You already had an answer.

Scott
 
oh my goodness…this thread is too funny…

So THAT’s why WC raised the question…
I’m out of the loop, of course…but I take it the current Pope resently kissed a Koran somewhere, huh?

And so ‘respectfully’ WC, you were trying to get someone here to say he was wrong to do so? When you apparently had the answer all along, as you just posted:

You are making excuses. We all know what the outcome would have been for those guilty of such offense. They would have been executed for heresy. Their flesh would have been consumed by the fire.
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Why ask a question, respectfully or not, if you already have the answer, unless it is really an attempt to get others to say what you did not want to in the first place, apparently?

Well, I’m still respectfullyl chuckling over the transparency here. Thanks.

yym
 
They would have been found guilty of heresy and executed. That is what would have happen to them.

Ok…and so your point here would be… ???
 
You are making excuses. We all know what the outcome would have been for those guilty of such offense. They would have been executed for heresy. Their flesh would have been consumed by the fire.
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So, Pope Saint Gregory VII was a Modernist heretic? Good to know.

The Inquisitons were held in certain areas of Western Europe, where the kissing of a Koran would have had different cultural implications than the kissing of a gift in the Middle East.
 
No Popes believe that Muslims and Christians worship the same God? Well… evidently the current Pope… Pope John Paul II does:

Taken from:
L’Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
12 May 1999, page 11
Christians and Muslims believe in the same God, the one God
Along the path marked out by Abraham in his submission to the divine will, we find his descendant, the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Jesus, who is also devoutly invoked by Muslims, especially in popular piety.
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We Christians joyfully recognize the religious values we have in common with Islam. Today I would like to repeat what I said to young Muslims some years ago in Casablanca: “We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection” (Insegnamenti, VIII/2, [1985], p. 497). The patrimony of revealed texts in the Bible speaks unanimously of the oneness of God. Jesus himself reaffirms it, making Israel’s profession his own: “The Lord our God, the Lord is one” (Mk 12:29; cf. Dt 6:4-5). This oneness is also affirmed in the words of praise that spring from the heart of the Apostle Paul: “To the king of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen’”(1 Tm 1:17).
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Don’t believe me? Read it for yourself. 👍
 
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