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RobbyS
Guest
No, only by your definition of the term. It is certainly very different from the pagan religions known to the earliest Chrustians.
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
Muslims are traditionally known as “infidels,” not “pagans.” From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
So the Church has always distinguished Judaism and Islam from other false religions (i.e. heathenism). This makes no sense unless there is some acknowledgement on the part of the Church that Christians, Muslims, and Jews all worship the same God.
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Salmon
Guest
Boomer Sooner:
Boomer, your posts are a joy as well.
Do you see that green dot to the right of your name? That means that other people feel the same way. Don’t be too concerned if someone with a blue dot judges you to be heterodox.
Peace in Christ…Salmon
Dittos. Happy birthday, Dom.
Boomer, your posts are a joy as well.
Do you see that green dot to the right of your name? That means that other people feel the same way. Don’t be too concerned if someone with a blue dot judges you to be heterodox.
Peace in Christ…Salmon
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gomer_tree
Guest
I hadn’t noticed that green dot / blue dot thing.
“gomer tree has yet to get the apologetical motor in gear.”
I guess I’ll just need to post more!
“gomer tree has yet to get the apologetical motor in gear.”
I guess I’ll just need to post more!
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
Aw, thanks guys!
Did you guys see what WanderingCathol’s dot says?
Did you guys see what WanderingCathol’s dot says?
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Schabel
Guest
Where can I find out more about these dots? I looked on the admin forum and couldn’t find anything.
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Matthew
Guest
What, pray tell, does “worship the true God” mean? You are placing a false dichotomy between “possessing” God and “worshipping” God. The latter is predicated on the former, or rather that God does indeed “possess” a man by sanctifying grace, by elevating his nature so as to elicit a supernatural act of love (i.e. adoration, worship). As Scripture says, God does indeed seek “true worshippers”, those that Adore Him in Spirit and Truth. The reason why only Catholics can truly worship God, and thus not engage in the sin of idolatry, is because of Jesus Christ and the Sacrifice of the Cross. It is in the Supreme Sacrifice that man is allowed to offer God true worship, adoration, propitiation, and thanksgiving. Outside of this, and all that flows from it, there is no efficacious, supernatural worship of God, period. Do you claim to speak for God and usurp His Divine Will which has revealed to man how He wills to be worshipped? I should think not.
I will refer you to the Scripture passages I posted. One cannot lack the theological virtue of Faith and still claim to possess belief. It is in the very nature of heresy to destroy belief. A fortiori, one cannot deny the Messiah, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity (i.e. an infidel), and claim true belief in God. To say otherwise is gross heresy. I don’t think you realize that such a doctrine that you are propounding destroys the very foundations of the Catholic religion and makes revelation superfluous. I would strongly suggest you investigate the logical implications of such a position before you so haphazardly spread such ideas.
What is taught today, on any level, should conform to Tradition and Scripture. Especially regarding the mere authentic magisterium that is not endowed with any divine protection, per se. I posit that you are not supporting the magisterium at all, but a novel current of thought deemed aptly, the Nouvelle Théologie. This perception, or I should say, re-interpretation of other religions is extremely popular today, yet it has absolutely no foundation in Catholic teaching. Ratzinger admitted that this “theology” was an entirely new way of viewing other religions recently born before the Council and subsequently adopted as a “refreshing” alternative. One does not have to search too long and too hard to see its connection with Modernism and its definition of ‘faith’ and ‘revelation’ as well as the essential nature of religion. To quote Pius XI speaking about false ecumenism, but is relevant here as well:
"But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a most grave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed …Let them hear Lactantius crying out: “The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind.”
DV, what is idolatry? Is it even possible under this new paradigm? You are confusing the depth and breadth of Catholic truth, which is able to be looked at from many different angles and the liberal error of placing the human conscience above God’s law. You are losing touch with the essences of things; the nature of things as such and replacing your loss with a vague sentimentalism.
How can you accuse Kasper of heresy while at the same time acquiting John Paul II of any wrong doing? Not only merely intellectually acquit him, but positively claim he is an extraordinary theologian who knows Scripture and Church teaching better than pretty much everyone else in the Church! Are you not impugning his integrity, his veracity, his judgement and theological prowess? Kasper simply takes what John Paul II says and expounds their logical conclusions.
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Matthew
Guest
Oops.
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Matthew
Guest
“In the meantime, a teaching had gained more and more acceptance…namely, that God wills and is able to save outside the Church, though, in the end, not without her. Thereby, an *optimistic understanding * of the world religions was recently brought forth, the consideration of which once again makes clear that not all of the favortie thoughts of modern theology are at the same time Biblically sound. For if anything may be called foreign, yes, even opposed to Sacred Scripture, then it is the current optimism with regard to the world religions which, in fact, conceives these religions as means of salvation, a view which can hardly be reconciled with their standing in Biblical (and the Church’s doctrinal-Ed.) perspective.” -Joseph Ratzinger, Die letzte Sitzungsperiode des Konzils (Cologne, 1966), p.60.
So you can see, DV (and others on this board), that you are not supporting sound theology, nor the Church’s traditional understanding, but a dangerous novelty born of modern theology. As an act of fraternal charity, I feel compelled to give you some ipecac so you can bring up that poison you have drunk from the dregs of modern thought.
So you can see, DV (and others on this board), that you are not supporting sound theology, nor the Church’s traditional understanding, but a dangerous novelty born of modern theology. As an act of fraternal charity, I feel compelled to give you some ipecac so you can bring up that poison you have drunk from the dregs of modern thought.
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otm
Guest
Oh, I just love it when people want to be more Catholic than the Pope. What never ceases to amaze me is how rigid and authoritarian the conservatives can be! But , then, there is more than a smattering of truth in the old saying, “There is no one so reactionary as aradical who has achieved his objective.”.
The Pope kissing the Koran is an obomination? Who made white anglo saxon middle class American conservatives the arbiter of culturally accepted behavior? He is the Pope, not of the Catholic Church in America, but the Universal Church. And this pope has more than just a clue as to what is culturally acceptable or not.
So he kissed the Koran, as a sign (culturally) of thanks for the gift, and as a sign of respect to the giver, and as a sign of respect for the truth and Truth, that may be contained therein.
So GET OVER IT!
And while you are at it, you might want to find out what the Church really teaches… you got the part of Transubstantiation; you might want to learn a little bit more…
The Pope kissing the Koran is an obomination? Who made white anglo saxon middle class American conservatives the arbiter of culturally accepted behavior? He is the Pope, not of the Catholic Church in America, but the Universal Church. And this pope has more than just a clue as to what is culturally acceptable or not.
So he kissed the Koran, as a sign (culturally) of thanks for the gift, and as a sign of respect to the giver, and as a sign of respect for the truth and Truth, that may be contained therein.
So GET OVER IT!
And while you are at it, you might want to find out what the Church really teaches… you got the part of Transubstantiation; you might want to learn a little bit more…
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Mandi
Guest
dc
otm:
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Melchior
Guest
O.k. How about heathen?
They do not Worship the same God. God is Triune. They deny this. They do not Worship Jesus, they are not Trinitarian therefore they do not worship the true God. It is really pretty simple unless you complicate it.
Mel
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Melchior
Guest
That’s because they did not exist until the 7th century. I am quite certain the early church would have no trouble calling the Zoroastrians pagans. They were monotheistic. But the God they worshipped was a false God. Just like Allah was originally one of the Arabian pantheon. The Moon god. Mohammed just decided to make him the only God. So in this sense the Muslims worship a Pagan god.
But this is semantics. And distracts from the main point.
Mel
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Melchior
Guest
I am about one quarter Anglo-Saxon and my middle class status keep fluctuating.
But the original comment reminds me of the the leftist cultural elitists back in college who thought white conservative males were the root of all evil. Remember the whole “dead white males” mantra? OTM, your caricature is so 1992. Don’t you know the Jews, Israel and George Bush are the new pariahs of the left?
Mel
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Boomer_Sooner
Guest
I am by no means a defender of the Muslim faith… at all. But I am a defender of the Pope… and I don’t see how people can come out and make claims that “the Pope must be crazy”… or “he just doesn’t know what he’s talking about” when he says that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. Don’t you think the Pope is fully aware of the differences between these two faiths? Or how you could claim that Allah is from the Arabic pantheon of gods, when any encyclopedia says Islam is a branch off of Judaism and Christianity.
I am by no means saying that I am right, or that I have the answers. You could be 100% correct. I am merely a student here on these forums. But you’re going to have to show me some hardcore evidence if you want me to discredit what Pope John Paul II is saying.
I am by no means saying that I am right, or that I have the answers. You could be 100% correct. I am merely a student here on these forums. But you’re going to have to show me some hardcore evidence if you want me to discredit what Pope John Paul II is saying.
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Malachi4U
Guest
So there have been many good responses above and I’ll add mine.
Foxe’s Book of Martyrs is clearly bigoted hate fiction.:yup: Don’t believe what you read in it. It is propaganda and full of lies. Only ignorent or decieved people could believe what it says.
education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry?id=17590
infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0819389.html
See it here:
infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0819389.html
Desperate protestants will use anything at all to degrade RC’s. Surely they could find something more then this petty little argument.:banghead:
The inquisition would not have punished them at all for this! Why should they? Do you have any proof otherwise? Proof is a protestants worst enemy? Also the RCC (not to be confused with the Eastern rite) only tried the defendant, the “State” carried out the execution. So the ‘Church’ would not have burned anyone anyway! Were there exceptions? Maybe? How many inocent witches burned in the USA/Colonies at the hands of protestants? How many followers of Luther burned Bibles, and churches and put men to death in the Peseants Revolt for nothing more then being loyal to God and His Catholic Church? Etc… The Pope actually tried to stop witch burning but the protestants refused.
Find another topic to defame the RCC as this one is silly.:clapping:
A prisoner of Christ
PS, wonderingcatholic I hope you find peace someday and come home to His body, the Catholic Church. If you don’t like the Pope join an Eastern Rite of the Church. We love you and hate to see Christians missled like this. I would never kiss the Koran but the Pope had his reasons and thats good enough for me. After all, he has the ‘keys’ and not us. Have you ever read the Koran by the way to see whats in it? Don’t always believe what you read since people like to lie about other religions like Luther and Foxe.:nope:
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Matthew
Guest
Who’s trying to be “more Catholic than the Pope”? I would say that’s a metaphysical impossibility, seeing as how one is either Catholic or not Catholic. There is no such thing as a “semi-Catholic”.otm said:
I haven’t focused on the Pope kissing the Koran, though it is symptomatic of a larger issue. I am curious as to how you can so absolutely divorce culture and religion in order to defend such actions anyway. The Pope understands that culture is imbued with religion and the two are inseparable. Do you understand this? Also, as he is the Vicar of Christ you know, I also wonder how you can hold him up as a diplomatic sociologist without any reference to his Office as Christ’s supreme representative on earth. The Pope is not a politician nor is he a philanthropist. The Muslims didn’t see the gesture as a mere cultural nod of the head at all, but a confirmation of their religion, since, obviously it *is * their religious book. It certainly isn’t a collection of cultural recipes, but rather contains explicit denials of the divinity of Jesus Christ, Who should be our main reference point, not foreign cultural polities. But what do I know, since I’m an ignorant anglo-saxon.
To put it succinctly, the Pope would most certainly not have offended anyone for **not ** kisssing the book. But enough about that.
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otm
Guest
It is not a metphysical impossibility if you understand hyperbole and satire.
Iam not trying to divorce culture and religion; I am trying to say that we are judging another culture through our own culture; and “not getting it”.
I would like to know the source of your information that the Muslims see his gesture as a “confirmation of their religion”; perhaps a news article or a public statement by some authority (muslim, that is).
I see a good bit of ignorance of what the Church teaches. Both in this thread, and another, a few people are treading awfully close to what got a Catholic priest excommunicated.
And as to the comment that the Jews were cut off; God does not go back on His covenenant; some may have cut themselves off by direct denial of Christ. But it is also a rule of moral theology that to sin, one must know that the issue is a sin. To reject Christ takes much more than just a disbelief that he is the Chosen One; it takes an understanding that he is the Chosen One and refusal to accept him as such.
Iam not trying to divorce culture and religion; I am trying to say that we are judging another culture through our own culture; and “not getting it”.
I would like to know the source of your information that the Muslims see his gesture as a “confirmation of their religion”; perhaps a news article or a public statement by some authority (muslim, that is).
I see a good bit of ignorance of what the Church teaches. Both in this thread, and another, a few people are treading awfully close to what got a Catholic priest excommunicated.
And as to the comment that the Jews were cut off; God does not go back on His covenenant; some may have cut themselves off by direct denial of Christ. But it is also a rule of moral theology that to sin, one must know that the issue is a sin. To reject Christ takes much more than just a disbelief that he is the Chosen One; it takes an understanding that he is the Chosen One and refusal to accept him as such.
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ralphinal
Guest
And the Lord said to ralphinal, “All who disagree with your thinking are doomed to hell. There is no chance for their salvation. Yea, know that the Lord has written into men’s hearts the truth of your doctrines. Verily, I promise to you, as I did Abraham and David, that anyone who does not follow your doctrine shall not have eternal life.”
And ralphinal said, “But Lord, why should I be the standard and measure of others? For surely, I have sinned and cause scandel by my actions, even those that were in fact good and wholesome but misuderstood.”
And the Lord said, “It is not for you to question the Lord. Even if you do not like this pronouncement, it is so. Therefore, all non-Catholics and those Catholics who do not agree with ralphinal are doomed to hell.”
And ralphinal was sad, for as much as he has sinned, he is now the measure by which all shall be judged. Thus spoke ralphinal, “Then all shall try to be holy as I try, and I think we are all doomed.”
See how funny that is? Look, many people that I love do things that I do not like, and sometimes they are right!! Everyone who is not like me is not going to hell, but anyone who refuses to act upon the grace given to them By God is.
And ralphinal said, “But Lord, why should I be the standard and measure of others? For surely, I have sinned and cause scandel by my actions, even those that were in fact good and wholesome but misuderstood.”
And the Lord said, “It is not for you to question the Lord. Even if you do not like this pronouncement, it is so. Therefore, all non-Catholics and those Catholics who do not agree with ralphinal are doomed to hell.”
And ralphinal was sad, for as much as he has sinned, he is now the measure by which all shall be judged. Thus spoke ralphinal, “Then all shall try to be holy as I try, and I think we are all doomed.”
See how funny that is? Look, many people that I love do things that I do not like, and sometimes they are right!! Everyone who is not like me is not going to hell, but anyone who refuses to act upon the grace given to them By God is.
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