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retina_md
Guest
You seem to have the answer to the question you are asking. Can you support your answer historically?
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quasimodo
Guest
I think WC was banned, so you may not get a response
R
retina_md
Guest
How does one go about getting banned?
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quasimodo
Guest
There should be some rules posted somewhere. Being too rude or slamming the church or pope are possibilities. Not that you can’t question or criticize politely.
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retina_md
Guest
“There’ll be plenty of time for liturgical dance in purgatory.” Just saw this. Love it!
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quasimodo
Guest
retina_md said:
I think I stole it from Salmon when he wasn’t looking. Us Bell Ringers are sneaky)
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
“Pre-Vatican II Ecumenism”
“Dialogue on ‘Salvation Outside the Church’ and Alleged Catholic Magisterial Contradictions (Particularly in the Middle Ages: With Emphasis on St. Thomas Aquinas’s Views)”
The fact is, as I documented earlier, the Church has traditionally differentiated Islam from “Paganism,” placing it in the same category as Judaism (i.e. “infidel”). This makes absolutely no sense unless there is some sense in which Muslims can be said to worship the same God as Catholics.
I think I’ll leave this debate. There’s no point in debating with pseudo-Protestants who cannot differentiate, as the Church traditionally has, between the worship of God, and said worship’s fruitility. And who cannot grasp the traditional distinction between formal and material apostasy.
Just keep praying for them, guys.
(I would be interested in seeing what Karl Keating would have to say about this.)
“Dialogue on ‘Salvation Outside the Church’ and Alleged Catholic Magisterial Contradictions (Particularly in the Middle Ages: With Emphasis on St. Thomas Aquinas’s Views)”
The fact is, as I documented earlier, the Church has traditionally differentiated Islam from “Paganism,” placing it in the same category as Judaism (i.e. “infidel”). This makes absolutely no sense unless there is some sense in which Muslims can be said to worship the same God as Catholics.
I think I’ll leave this debate. There’s no point in debating with pseudo-Protestants who cannot differentiate, as the Church traditionally has, between the worship of God, and said worship’s fruitility. And who cannot grasp the traditional distinction between formal and material apostasy.
Just keep praying for them, guys.
(I would be interested in seeing what Karl Keating would have to say about this.)
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Boomer_Sooner
Guest
Hey DV,
I posted our questions from the thread in the “Ask an Apologist” section. I agree, I’m really interested in what the pros have to say about this argument. Because it seems like we’re all completely split on this issue of (1) do Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God, and (2) do Jews need to be “saved” and become Christians, or is their old covenant with God still unrevoked.
If seems as if people have Catholic documents (or claim to have them) that support both sides of each issue. So I guess it’s in the hands of the pro’s now to tell us what the real answer is.
I posted our questions from the thread in the “Ask an Apologist” section. I agree, I’m really interested in what the pros have to say about this argument. Because it seems like we’re all completely split on this issue of (1) do Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God, and (2) do Jews need to be “saved” and become Christians, or is their old covenant with God still unrevoked.
If seems as if people have Catholic documents (or claim to have them) that support both sides of each issue. So I guess it’s in the hands of the pro’s now to tell us what the real answer is.
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Matthew
Guest
LOL.
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Melchior
Guest
I hope you are kidding? If not you are seriously in denial. What did all those people fake their own deaths at the stake? All the deaths in that book are facts of history. To say otherwise is nonsense.
At least we can admit that there were similar atrocities against Catholics by some Protestants.
Mel
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
Documentation, please?
Its a very well-known fact that Foxe’s Book of Martyrs is, for the most part, unsubstantiatied Protestant propoganda aimed at discrediting Catholicism. It also contributed in large part to Spain’s “Black Legend.”
Serious scholars today recognize the book as being a milestone of English religious literature; it certainly has influenced Proestant thought, with repurcusions down to the present day. But it is not by any means a historically reliable document; rather, its a reflection of 16th century Proestant attitudes towards Catholicism and Church history in general.
If you find a reputable historian who says otherwise, I’d be surprised.
I mean, what can we say about a book that considers the Albigensians to be martyrs to the Protestant cause?
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agname
Guest
Next we’ll harp on Pope John Paul II praying at a mosque in Damascus.
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Tim_Hayes
Guest
The teaching of the CAtholic Faith has been so watered down it is not funny, I returned to the faith because it is the only faith and it can be the only faith if it matters greatly.
Personally I hope that basically everyone gets saved, but that is just a desire, I have to accept the truth of such statements below, I accept that I may be wrong, but what I ask people to do is show me where they same Pope also says that the below statement is not the significant Norm.
The below statement is abundently clear, Perhaps in some way you can say that those who are ignorant of Christ/Church through no fault of their own can be saved is the only possibility that saves any of the below people. However it is an extemely strong statement and essentially defines what 'THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS" for the purpose of salvation and defines those who aren’t, at any length, such a strong statement cannot be made unless it is the “Norm”
The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
Personally I hope that basically everyone gets saved, but that is just a desire, I have to accept the truth of such statements below, I accept that I may be wrong, but what I ask people to do is show me where they same Pope also says that the below statement is not the significant Norm.
The below statement is abundently clear, Perhaps in some way you can say that those who are ignorant of Christ/Church through no fault of their own can be saved is the only possibility that saves any of the below people. However it is an extemely strong statement and essentially defines what 'THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS" for the purpose of salvation and defines those who aren’t, at any length, such a strong statement cannot be made unless it is the “Norm”
The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
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