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Boomer_Sooner
Guest
Ahh… well that’s explains a lot of things. 
If I may, could I ask what religious affiliation you adhere to?
If I may, could I ask what religious affiliation you adhere to?
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WanderingCathol
Guest
Boomer Sooner:
I am a roman catholic. Holy Mother Church. The church of Augustine, thomas, athanaius, Jerome, etc.Ahh… well that’s explains a lot of things.
If I may, could I ask what religious affiliation you adhere to?
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gomer_tree
Guest
My head hurts.
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Boomer_Sooner
Guest
Say wha?? My head hurts too… :whacky:
If I may, could I ask why – if you are Roman Catholic – you don’t follow any teachings of Pope John Paul II? Do you consider all popes after Vatican II invalid, just JPII, others? Please explain…
If I may, could I ask why – if you are Roman Catholic – you don’t follow any teachings of Pope John Paul II? Do you consider all popes after Vatican II invalid, just JPII, others? Please explain…
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Vincent
Guest
Until the liturgical developments of Pope Pius XII (I think), we prayed for the “perfidious Jews” in the Good Friday liturgy. Needless to say, “perfidious” had come to have a more derogatory meaning, so it was understandably dropped.
Yet, If Jews were called “perfidious” in older Catholic theology, I doubt that they would have been called “pagan”. Someone who believes in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob-- even if he knowingly rejects Jesus as the Messiah-- is in a different category than someone who believes in Zeus, Molech or Ra.
Now, since Muslims profess to believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, it would be interesting to see what category they would fall in.
Perhaps there’s a distinction between perfidel (if such a term exists) and infidel.
Yet, If Jews were called “perfidious” in older Catholic theology, I doubt that they would have been called “pagan”. Someone who believes in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob-- even if he knowingly rejects Jesus as the Messiah-- is in a different category than someone who believes in Zeus, Molech or Ra.
Now, since Muslims profess to believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, it would be interesting to see what category they would fall in.
Perhaps there’s a distinction between perfidel (if such a term exists) and infidel.
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Boomer_Sooner
Guest
In other news – I just became a “regular member” now… rock on!! 
haha
haha
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Mandi
Guest
NO, I must be the one who is naive, Catholics get Catholic!
Hmmm. where to start - How about a devotion to prepare yourself for confession. Examination of Conscience - Lets start with the 1st Commandment.
I am The Lord Thy God, Thou shalt not have strange gods before Me.
Examination
Have you doubted in matters of faith?
Murmured against God at your adversity or at the prosperity of others?
Dispaired of Hismercy?
Believed in fortune telllers or consulted them?
Gone to places of worship belonging to other denominations?
Not recommended yourself daily to God?
Don’t be blind by false charity!!!
Read the story of St. Francis Xavier!!!
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gomer_tree
Guest
Have you ever attended a Protestant wedding? A Mormon wedding?
A Jewish wedding? Do you believe it’s a sin?
No way.
There are certain things we can do if we are worshipping in common to the Father. There are certain things we should avoid as well.
The statement in question isn’t quite as simple as you make it sound. Those are guidelines for reflection. If you went to a Protestant Church and made a statement of faith contrary to your Catholic faith, and/or received their communion, then there’s a problem. If you go to an ecumenical prayer service or a wedding, or a funeral, etc. there is no problem.
We need to think these things through a little bit.
A Jewish wedding? Do you believe it’s a sin?
No way.
There are certain things we can do if we are worshipping in common to the Father. There are certain things we should avoid as well.
The statement in question isn’t quite as simple as you make it sound. Those are guidelines for reflection. If you went to a Protestant Church and made a statement of faith contrary to your Catholic faith, and/or received their communion, then there’s a problem. If you go to an ecumenical prayer service or a wedding, or a funeral, etc. there is no problem.
We need to think these things through a little bit.
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WanderingCathol
Guest
gomer tree:
I have never stepped foot in a protestant, muslim, jewish houses of woorship. God is not found there. Nor will I ever since it is against the catholic faith.
Now it is different. we are all one. we worship the same God.
Did you know that once is what forbidden for a catholic to step inside a protestant church. let alone a muslim or jewish one.
I have never stepped foot in a protestant, muslim, jewish houses of woorship. God is not found there. Nor will I ever since it is against the catholic faith.
Now it is different. we are all one. we worship the same God.
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Boomer_Sooner
Guest
(1) We’ve already established that:Christians and Muslims believe in the same God, the one God
(2) Who said that the Pope worshipped at an Islamic mosque? He didn’t. Rather, he met a Muslim delegation, which at the end, he kissed the Koran as a sign of respect.
Like Gomer said, this would be a problem if the Pope was rejecting Catholicism, or the Gospels – and putting Islam or the Koran in its place. Rather, he didn’t. At all.
Once again, if the Catholic patriarch whose flock actually lives in the country under Islamic rule and who is perhaps a bit closer to knowledge of the situation of the Church in the Islamic world than we are… if he thought (a) that this in no way signaled the abandonment of the gospel by John Paul, and (b) that Muslims understood it as the gesture of respect… not that he was “accepting Islam” or anything… nor did any Vatican official get upset over it…
I don’t see why some of us are getting all upset over it. Only if you take the act extremely out of context do you have grounds for being upset.
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Jennifer_J
Guest
So, when my Father dies (who is not Catholic–I’m a convert) I’m not allowed to attend the Protestant funeral?? Gosh, I must be going to Hell since I’ve also gone to my Grandparent’s funeral. I didn’t realize Protestants didn’t worship the same God, must have missed that when I was Baptised in a Baptist church (name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, valid and all, you know). I pray the scales fall from your eyes soon.Did you know that once is what forbidden for a catholic to step inside a protestant church. let alone a muslim or jewish one.
I have never stepped foot in a protestant, muslim, jewish houses of woorship. God is not found there. Nor will I ever since it is against the catholic faith.
Now it is different. we are all one. we worship the same God.
Jennifer
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gomer_tree
Guest
Wow. WanderingCathol was banned…
Anyone know what happened?
Anyone know what happened?
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Hananiah
Guest
Boomer Sooner:
Boomer Sooner:
There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved. (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
See also Acts 4:12.
He’s contradicitng the Bible here: Romans 11:15,17. Jews are cut off from the tree of the family of God until such time as acknowledge Christ as their Savior.
Boomer Sooner:
The Cardinal is here teaching blatant heresy.
There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved. (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
See also Acts 4:12.
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Matthew
Guest
Eh? We have?? What does this mean to you, Boomer:
Or this:
I could quote half-a-dozen authoritative Papal statements that say exactly the same thing, but I won’t burden you.
This doctrine is very clear. Those who do not possess the theological virtue of Faith in Jesus Christ, as True God, do not, cannot, possess God the Father, the the supposed “one god” of Islam and Judaism. In short, they cannot worship the one God at all, lest they have faith and charity in the God-Man. Scripture and Tradition are very clear in this matter. Please do not appeal to ignorance for its very nothingness does not supply for the debilitating defect that is the lack of supernatural, infused virtue. To profess a false religion is still idolatrous, no matter how many churchmen today say otherwise. This is simple catechism.
[/quote]
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Ham1
Guest
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
You forget, dear Matthew that one can still profess and worship the true God, and still not posess him. So there’s no contradiction
And this doesn’t just apply to Muslims. It applies to formal (but not material) heretics and schismatics, even Catholics who persist in manifest grave sin or heresy, but are not formally excommunicated. In short, anyone who professes belief in the one God, really does worship him, but this worship may be imperfect or even unfruitful, and the worshipper can lack sanctifying grace, which is the very life of God.
You can quote as many papal documents as you like, but they must always be read and interpreted in light of what the Magisterium teaches, and this includes what it teaches today as well as yesterday.
I can assure you that our Holy Father knows his Bible and his Catholicism better than you know the back of your hand. So before presumptuously accusing him of heresy (which is what your posts imply), try giving him the benefit of the doubt, and see if his current teaching can be reconciled to Tradition.
People often forget that in Catholicism there’s almost always two sides to every teaching, and these teachings often seem contradictory when in fact they are simply paradoxical.
For example.
We can look at non-Christian religions as false systems of beliefs, founded by demons. And at the same time we can see them as sincere, though misguided, attempts to understand the things of God, and see what truths they do have as prefigurations of the true religion of the Gospel (i.e. Catholicism).
Both these outlooks is completely true, both can be given Scriptural and Patristic support, yet clearly the emphasis is different. Its clear that conditions today warrant a less harsh, but no less truthful, stance than that adopted by churchmen long ago. It doesn’t mean you water down the faith; you just learn to present it more palatably.
Remember, “being all things to all men”?
And by the way, while Pope John Paul II’s statements on Judaism are orthodox, Cardinal Kaspar’s aren’t. His Eminence is a notorious heretic. Why he was amde Cardinal to begin with is beyond me; why he remains one even more so! In any event, pray for him, and the Holy Father.
Oh, and even “in the old days” Catholics were allowed to atted non-Catholic weddings and funerals and, with special dispensations from their pastors, could even attend non-Catholic services. How else could Catholic scholars write about them?
And this doesn’t just apply to Muslims. It applies to formal (but not material) heretics and schismatics, even Catholics who persist in manifest grave sin or heresy, but are not formally excommunicated. In short, anyone who professes belief in the one God, really does worship him, but this worship may be imperfect or even unfruitful, and the worshipper can lack sanctifying grace, which is the very life of God.
You can quote as many papal documents as you like, but they must always be read and interpreted in light of what the Magisterium teaches, and this includes what it teaches today as well as yesterday.
I can assure you that our Holy Father knows his Bible and his Catholicism better than you know the back of your hand. So before presumptuously accusing him of heresy (which is what your posts imply), try giving him the benefit of the doubt, and see if his current teaching can be reconciled to Tradition.
People often forget that in Catholicism there’s almost always two sides to every teaching, and these teachings often seem contradictory when in fact they are simply paradoxical.
For example.
We can look at non-Christian religions as false systems of beliefs, founded by demons. And at the same time we can see them as sincere, though misguided, attempts to understand the things of God, and see what truths they do have as prefigurations of the true religion of the Gospel (i.e. Catholicism).
Both these outlooks is completely true, both can be given Scriptural and Patristic support, yet clearly the emphasis is different. Its clear that conditions today warrant a less harsh, but no less truthful, stance than that adopted by churchmen long ago. It doesn’t mean you water down the faith; you just learn to present it more palatably.
Remember, “being all things to all men”?
And by the way, while Pope John Paul II’s statements on Judaism are orthodox, Cardinal Kaspar’s aren’t. His Eminence is a notorious heretic. Why he was amde Cardinal to begin with is beyond me; why he remains one even more so! In any event, pray for him, and the Holy Father.
Oh, and even “in the old days” Catholics were allowed to atted non-Catholic weddings and funerals and, with special dispensations from their pastors, could even attend non-Catholic services. How else could Catholic scholars write about them?
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Boomer_Sooner
Guest
First, it was “WanderingCathol” who was banned – not I. He was probably banned due to the fact that he was claming to be Roman Catholic, yet claimed anything John Paul II said was “invalid”. Thus, had a non-Catholic seen this thread they could have been incrediably confused by his false claim that Roman Catholics don’t listen to the Pope or accept his authority.
As for my quotes, they’re all taken from either:
(1) catholiceducation.org/
(2) ewtn.com/
(3) catholicculture.org/docs/documents.cfm
(4) css.catholicexchange.com/, or
(5) newadvent.org/cathen/
Take them for what they are. I was under the impression that these were all orthodox Catholic sites. If any of them are not, please let me know! My intentions are truely sincere, and by all means, I don’t intend to spread “heresy” or “contradict the Bible”.
As for my quotes, they’re all taken from either:
(1) catholiceducation.org/
(2) ewtn.com/
(3) catholicculture.org/docs/documents.cfm
(4) css.catholicexchange.com/, or
(5) newadvent.org/cathen/
Take them for what they are. I was under the impression that these were all orthodox Catholic sites. If any of them are not, please let me know! My intentions are truely sincere, and by all means, I don’t intend to spread “heresy” or “contradict the Bible”.
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Melchior
Guest
gomer tree:
Mel
Those who worship a false god and are members fo a false religion. How the heck is Islam not a pagan religion? It is by every Christian definition of the word.
Mel
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RobbyS
Guest
You can call them anything you please, but that does not mean that Muslims are pagans in the usual sense. The term, after all, implies polytheism.
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Boomer_Sooner
Guest
Hey, I just saw it was your birthday, Dominvs! On behalf of everyone here on the “May I ask another potentially controversial question” thread… here’s wishing you a happy birthday! :dancing:
Always enjoy reading your posts.
Always enjoy reading your posts.
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