Meet the Next President: Kerry's Second Shot

[vern_humphrey]

I’m a member of the Catholic Church. Nothing else needed to see if my conscience and my knowledge of Church teaching gives me a strong opinion whether a war is just or not.

From the Catechism:

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

• the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

• there must be serious prospects of success;

• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good

(My emphasis)

The Church herself does not maintain the right to decide if a war is just or not – she reserves that “to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.”

And she certainly does not say that those with neither training nor experience have that in their purview.

I’m not in the military and I have never been, no indeed. I still think I can make the statement

You can make the statement the Earth is flat – but you have no credibility when you do.

 

[MikeWM]

From the Catechism:

Yes, I’m aware of 2309, we’ve discussed it at great length previously. Nevertheless, there are many many problems with this paragraph - not the least of which is that the President of the United States isn’t a Catholic. Apparently if I was living in Germany in 1939, I’d have to assume the invasion of Poland was just, because Hitler ordered it? Or Iraq invading Kuwait in 1990, because Saddam (certainly not a Catholic!) ordered it?

By this interpretation of 2309, we can’t say any war at all, now or in the past, was either just or injust. I don’t think that was the intention of the writers of the Catechism.

You can make the statement the Earth is flat – but you have no credibility when you do.

Your reaction strikes me as very odd. I made the asumption that most people didn’t go into the military because they just wanted to go kill people - any people. I’d expect anyone to just agree with that. Unless, of course, you’ve encountered lots of people in the military who did just want to get weapons and kill anyone who came along. I don’t know…

You have the experience, so you tell us. I assumed something, based on some, but incomplete, evidence. If it was right, then stop making such a fuss. If it was wrong, then tell us what is actually the case.

Mike

 

[estesbob]

That assumes people are fully aware of all the facts. We know very well that there is a large number of people who even now believe Iraq was behind 9/11.

Mike

And there is a large number of people who believe Bush was behind 9-11…

 

[estesbob]

Yes, I’m aware of 2309, we’ve discussed it at great length previously. Nevertheless, there are many many problems with this paragraph - not the least of which is that the President of the United States isn’t a Catholic. Apparently if I was living in Germany in 1939, I’d have to assume the invasion of Poland was just, because Hitler ordered it? Or Iraq invading Kuwait in 1990, because Saddam (certainly not a Catholic!) ordered it?

Nazi Analogy Alert! Nazi Analogy Alert.

Your assertions fall apart not becuase Bush it not catholic but becuase Bush is not Hitler.

 

[mary_bobo]

And there is a large number of people who believe Bush was behind 9-11…

You can say or hear something often enough and a percentage of the people on the receiving end will believe anything they hear. Sad, but true, and too many of them vote.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Yes, I’m aware of 2309, we’ve discussed it at great length previously. Nevertheless, there are many many problems with this paragraph - not the least of which is that the President of the United States isn’t a Catholic. Apparently if I was living in Germany in 1939, I’d have to assume the invasion of Poland was just, because Hitler ordered it? Or Iraq invading Kuwait in 1990, because Saddam (certainly not a Catholic!) ordered it?

By this interpretation of 2309, we can’t say any war at all, now or in the past, was either just or injust. I don’t think that was the intention of the writers of the Catechism.

If you don’t like 2309, go talk to the man responsible for putting the Catechism together – he lives in the Vatican.

In the meantime, all the sophistry in the world won’t change Catholic moral teaching – and won’t twist the Catechism to say that people with no training or experience are the ones that make these judgements.

Your reaction strikes me as very odd. I made the asumption that most people didn’t go into the military because they just wanted to go kill people - any people. I’d expect anyone to just agree with that. Unless, of course, you’ve encountered lots of people in the military who did just want to get weapons and kill anyone who came along. I don’t know…

Smarmy, aren’t we?

You have the experience, so you tell us. I assumed something, based on some, but incomplete, evidence. If it was right, then stop making such a fuss. If it was wrong, then tell us what is actually the case.

Mike

We went into Iraq persuant to UN findings, and Saddam’s violation of the terms of the truce.

 

[Robert_Bay]

NOTICE

This thread is off topic

Please return to the topic of the original post

 

[Darrel]

That assumes people are fully aware of all the facts. We know very well that there is a large number of people who even now believe Iraq was behind 9/11.

Mike

I don’t know anyone who believes Iraq was behind 911. People seem to feel like we need to stay with the fight until it’s finished, period. People are also upset that it is taking so long for the Iraqi government to take control so we can leave. And Vern, you are so right when you say you can’t be Catholic and pro abortion. To vote for a pro abortion candidate is to participate in the furtherance of death. Abortion is not a political issue that is on the table for debate. I think calling abortion an “issue” is where the real problem is. Welfare reform is an issue. Baby’s dying by the million is a surrealistic nightmare happening right now at an abortion clinic near you.

-D

 

[estesbob]

To get Back on topic I hope Kerry deos run again. He is the same deeply flawed dincompetent man he has always been. All another run will do is expose once again the bankruptcy of the party he represents