Mel Gibson pushed for President

[TarAshly]

Steph700:

How arrogant of you to believe that your perspective would not be changed by experiences. .

How arrogant of you to assume it would.

 

[Steph700]

TarAshly:

How arrogant of you to assume it would.

It’s not arrogant. It’s based off experience. I think it’s very arrogant when people assume they can’t learn from others, because that is what you’re saying- “oh, well steph I’m such a good Christian American woman, I know if I went abroad or made friends from other cultures it wouldn’t change my perspective”.

You know what though, with an attitude like that, it very well may be a self-fulfilling prophesy TarAshly. That attitude is exactly what the rest of the world cannot understand. That attitude is exactly what makes them wary of Americans. And that attitude is exactly what turns them off from Christ b/c some Americans too closely associate their faith with their country.

You can pray out loud at your local restaurant all you want… if you’ve already offended people so much by your ethno-centric attitude, they won’t be interested in learning about the Jesus you’re praying to.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Steph700:

It’s not arrogant. It’s based off experience. I think it’s very arrogant when people assume they can’t learn from others, because that is what you’re saying- “oh, well steph I’m such a good Christian American woman, I know if I went abroad or made friends from other cultures it wouldn’t change my perspective”.

You know what though, with an attitude like that, it very well may be a self-fulfilling prophesy TarAshly. That attitude is exactly what the rest of the world cannot understand. That attitude is exactly what makes them wary of Americans. And that attitude is exactly what turns them off from Christ b/c some Americans too closely associate their faith with their country.

You can pray out loud at your local restaurant all you want… if you’ve already offended people so much by your ethno-centric attitude, they won’t be interested in learning about the Jesus you’re praying to.

Oh Steph. Calm down and have some caprese and a glass of Pinot Grigio.
http://www.punchstock.com/image/ita...urleystyrone.com/images/white_wine_bottle.jpg

 

[Steph700]

Goodness knows I love my Pinot Grigio.

Thanks, Scott.

 

[Fitz]

Scott_Lafrance:

I think that onces all of the cards are laid out on the table, hillary Clinton will do a great job at beating herself.

:clapping:
I don’t mean to break up a battle here, but the Hillary comment made my day!

 

[Fitz]

Gene C.:

Don’t give Hillary Clinton that much credit. Not only is she not a shoo-in for the Presidency, I don’t think she has a lock on the Democratic nomination. Gene

I agree. I keep hearing that she has it if she wants it. I doubt it. I know a woman will be president some day. I just don’t think she has that much support from even her party.

 

[Brad]

Steph700:

Let’s be honest here. Our founding fathers were slave-owning protestants, not saints like JPII and Mother Theresa. And just because something isn’t in the constitution doesn’t mean it isn’t a good thing. This reminds me of my sola-scriptura days of being a protestant!

I love my protestant brothers and sisters, don’t you?

I’m glad you understand that the founding father’s intent and the constitution both do not include separation of church and state.

Now we can get to some basis of understanding. You think that it is a good idea to separate church and state and so do some other people. Why do you think this is a good idea to separate Christian principles from anything public? Are these principles bad? Do you NOT want children to see the 10 commandments as guiding principles? Do you NOT want children to be taught intelligent design simply because it isn’t scientific enough but think they should be forced to learn evolutionary theory as fact simply because it excludes God? Should God not be part of our Pledge of Allegiance? As a Christian, how are these things good or bad? Remember, you have to come up with a pretty good case considering you are essentially proposing an amendment to the constitution to go against the founding father’s intent.

I strongly encourage you to read about the reality of how “separation of church and state” became a national clause and the dangers of it. Here is just one example:

noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html

Steph700:

A person’s religious views should not interfere with his/her ability to lead. Period. Either they’re good at their job or they aren’t. This isn’t about chosing a priest or a bible study leader, it’s about choising a politician.

Again, you are saying that someone strongly grounded in the Bible or the Church is EXCLUDED as a leadership candidate. I’m not saying that someone’s only criteria should be that they are a strongly grounded Christian. I’m saying, as Christians, this should be one of the criteria. The greatest leader that ever lived was pretty religious. All the criteria that you listed as being a good president could have applied to the Pope. We want leaders that share strong Christian values. That is why we have elected Christian presidents over and over again. Did you know that most of them consistently and persistently quoted from the Bible to support their decisions?

For example, if you are so against abortion then wouldn’t you want someone leading who shares those views based on religous conviction?

Steph700:

I’m not being PC, I’m telling it to you like it is.

Really? :bowdown:

Steph700:

Now if you think that this somehow makes me reject my Catholic faith (how much lower of a blow could you give), please tell me how? I am an orthodox girl through and through.

I’m glad you are orthodox. I am too. We should be proud of this and, as the Pope said, be unafraid to carry our faith with us wherever we are and with whatever we do.

 

[Brad]

Steph700:

You’re living in denial, Brad.

Ok. I’ll concede you this one. Bush is divisive. Just like Jesus said would happen. Jesus said he came to pit brother against brother and sister against sister. This would happend because those that stayed true to Him would be hated by the left, I mean world.

 

[Brad]

Steph700:

There’s always someone who wins with a majority. That isn’t up for debate. The point is, the mark of a good leader is someone who’s able to get the whole country behind him/her- not someone who is loved by half and despised by the other. People have extremely strong opinions about Bush both ways, you will meet very few people who are mediocre. That’s the point.

I think you are looking for traits in a leader that simply do not exist. Although what you are looking for is idealistic, it is not realistic in a world fallen by sin.

No president has ever had the whole country behind him.

The Pope (although noone will admit to it know) had many people in the Church that didn’t like him or his teachings and said so publically.

Abraham Lincoln was hated by a good chunk of the U.S. (so much so that states wanted to leave the union) and he was despised by Europe.

Moses lead the chosen people and they grumbled and complained and made vicious verbal attacks against him and God on a regular basis.

Now, nobody can deny that the Pope, Lincoln, and Moses were great leaders.

They key to success in leadership is not to always be liked but to always do what is right. That is the trademark of the greatest of our leaders throughout all of history. Study any one of them and you will see the same pattern.

 

[Steph700]

I love my protestant brothers and sisters, don’t you?

Yep. But that doesn’t have anything to do with my views on the founding fathers does it.

You think that it is a good idea to separate church and state and so do some other people. Why do you think this is a good idea to separate Christian principles from anything public?

To protect the Church. To protect people of all faiths from being forced to submit to the religion the gov’t supports. If there was a Muslim gov’t in place, I wouldn’t want to be forced to pray to Allah.

Do you NOT want children to see the 10 commandments as guiding principles?

When I have children I will teach them these things. The Church and its message are so powerful, they do not need the gov’t to post their 10 Commandments. The message we believe is so revolutionary! To act like a gov’t must display Christian symbols/beliefs goes against history. Last time I checked, Christianity has managed to survive w/o direct gov’t approval during the last 2000 years.

Do you NOT want children to be taught intelligent design simply because it isn’t scientific enough but think they should be forced to learn evolutionary theory as fact simply because it excludes God?

One does not have to turn their back on science- evolution theory- in order to believe in Creation.

Should God not be part of our Pledge of Allegiance?

I don’t see what purpose having God in our pledge of allegiance serves to be quite honest.

As a Christian, how are these things good or bad? Remember, you have to come up with a pretty good case considering you are essentially proposing an amendment to the constitution to go against the founding father’s intent.

Political science is like any other field- it develops over time. Just because a group of forward thinking, Bible-believing Christians got together in 1776 to start a new country does not mean they were right about everything or that they had all the kinks work out. The foundation was laid, but as responsible citizens we should be striving to make the country even better as we go along. At the same time, we must be aware of the fact that we live in a diverse country with people from many different backgrounds and belief. We must work to make sure they are not discriminated against. In order for America to be a free country, we can’t act like we are the Church, or even a branch of the Church.

Again, you are saying that someone strongly grounded in the Bible or the Church is EXCLUDED as a leadership candidate.

No, I’m not.

All the criteria that you listed as being a good president could have applied to the Pope.

I think JPII fit this model well, however, these are NOT the qualifications for a Pope. A Pope must be chosen by a group of cardinals lead by the Holy Spirit. He must lead the Church according to the Bible and the catechism. Some Popes have done this better than others. But the fact remains, the qualifications for a president of a country and the qualifications for a man leading the Church are different.

For example, if you are so against abortion then wouldn’t you want someone leading who shares those views based on religous conviction?

When voting I look at a whole spectrum of issues and try to be realistic about what difference the person will be able to make in the various areas- abortion is one of the important ones.

I’m glad you are orthodox. I am too. We should be proud of this and, as the Pope said, be unafraid to carry our faith with us wherever we are and with whatever we do.

I greatly admire the example of the holy father.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Steph700 http://images.animationfactory.com/...ters_fighting/roosters_fighting_lg_wm.gifBrad

 

[TarAshly]

i again restate that religion should not be left in the pews on sundays. it has a rightful place in government. i pray for a good Catholic president to lead this country out of the society of death and into a society of life and good values, morals and ethics. the purpose of GOD in our pledge that we are a nation of God because after all honey GOD made this nation and this world in its entirety. and as far as turning your back on science…Well yeah, you do. especially if you are Catholic.

 

[Lucania]

Brad:

I can’t name one politician, Catholic or non-Catholic that has been as courageous and truthful as him in the past few years aside from maybe Fr. Pavone. Can you?

I can’t either, Brad. I have alot of respect and admiration for Mel Gibson but I can’t see him putting his family through the scrutiny, especially after what was already done to his Father by the Media. I think we’ll have to put our hopes into someone else, WHO I don’t know.

 

[Brad]

Steph700:

Yep. But that doesn’t have anything to do with my views on the founding fathers does it.

I don’t know. You implied that they were flawed and only offered some of them being slave owners and protestant as supporting material.

Steph700:

To protect the Church. To protect people of all faiths from being forced to submit to the religion the gov’t supports. If there was a Muslim gov’t in place, I wouldn’t want to be forced to pray to Allah.

This is a noble concept. I understand why your motivation.
The Christian faith allows for freedom of other faiths. It does not require conversion as the Muslim faith does. You have to accept the key differences between the Christian and Muslim faith to catch this. See the difference? If not, there is plenty of supporting material in the New Testament. Jesus said if someone does not convert, you love them anyways. Muhammed said if someone doesn’t convert, make them.

Steph700:

When I have children I will teach them these things. The Church and its message are so powerful, they do not need the gov’t to post their 10 Commandments. The message we believe is so revolutionary! To act like a gov’t must display Christian symbols/beliefs goes against history. Last time I checked, Christianity has managed to survive w/o direct gov’t approval during the last 2000 years.

If the message is so powerful then why do we specifically not allow the 10 commandents which are central to the message? It sure is revolutionary. Why don’t we live like it? The Church has survived. But not withouth massive persecution. Do you want to live in a country that persecutes Christians?

Steph700:

One does not have to turn their back on science- evolution theory- in order to believe in Creation.

No. But one can turn their back on purposeless, material evolution based on bad science. Why is it that schools force this to be taught anyhow, even though it is based on bad science? Why is it that Hitler and the Soviet Union surrounded themselves with evolutionary theory scientists to gradually eliminate the dignity of the “weak” human beings. Why does the ACLU fight intelligent design tooth and nail?

Steph700:

I don’t see what purpose having God in our pledge of allegiance serves to be quite honest.

I’d rather pledge allegiance to a country that submits to God than a country that puts itself overtop of God. The latter might just lead to accepting things such as starving disabled people to death.

Steph700:

Political science is like any other field- it develops over time. Just because a group of forward thinking, Bible-believing Christians got together in 1776 to start a new country does not mean they were right about everything or that they had all the kinks work out. The foundation was laid, but as responsible citizens we should be striving to make the country even better as we go along. At the same time, we must be aware of the fact that we live in a diverse country with people from many different backgrounds and belief. We must work to make sure they are not discriminated against. In order for America to be a free country, we can’t act like we are the Church, or even a branch of the Church.

So you know more than Ben Franklin? He was full of kinks?

Isn’t it great that we have a diverse country and that our guiding principles are Christian, which allows people of many different faiths and backgrounds to live in freedom? You are right. We should never discriminate. That is guiding principle of Christianity. So why is it acceptable to discrimate against Christians in the U.S. and Candada when they read certain parts of the Bible (Hate speech or free speech)? Why is it acceptable to discriminate against a Christian pharmacist in Illinois that cannot in good conscience fill a prescription for birth control by forcing him to fill it or lose his license?

 

[Brad]

Scott_Lafrance:

Steph700 http://images.animationfactory.com/...ters_fighting/roosters_fighting_lg_wm.gifBrad

That will be $5 please.

 

[Brad]

Lucania:

I can’t either, Brad. I have alot of respect and admiration for Mel Gibson but I can’t see him putting his family through the scrutiny, especially after what was already done to his Father by the Media. I think we’ll have to put our hopes into someone else, WHO I don’t know.

Vision. Vision. Vision.

Hey. I’m not saying Mel IS THE guy. I’m saying that we, as Christians, need to look for people that are the best to lead us rather than settle. Anyone that takes a Christian stand in this country will be persecuted by the media. Must we exclude all such as possibilities?

 

[Steph700]

TarAshly:

i again restate that religion should not be left in the pews on sundays. it has a rightful place in government. i pray for a good Catholic president to lead this country out of the society of death and into a society of life and good values, morals and ethics. the purpose of GOD in our pledge that we are a nation of God because after all honey GOD made this nation and this world in its entirety. and as far as turning your back on science…Well yeah, you do. especially if you are Catholic.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you cross the line when you accuse others of not living out their Catholic faith fully. Debate is fine, insults are not.

How did God create our nation as opposed to him creating other nations? Does America have a higher status in God’s eyes than other countries? This is intriguing.

Actually, the study of science is glorifying to God because He made the natural world. One does not have to turn their back on science as far as Creation goes. Actually, did you know that the Catholic Church does not say that the 24-hour day theory of creation is right? It leaves this area open for us to decide and explore. This is an area where the Catholic Church differs from the Baptist church you grew up in, or the Evangelical Free Church I grew up in. Those types of churches tend to teach that one should ascribe to the theory of 24-hour day creation/young earth theory. Catholicism does not.

 

[Steph700]

This is a noble concept. I understand why your motivation.
The Christian faith allows for freedom of other faiths. It does not require conversion as the Muslim faith does. You have to accept the key differences between the Christian and Muslim faith to catch this. See the difference? If not, there is plenty of supporting material in the New Testament. Jesus said if someone does not convert, you love them anyways. Muhammed said if someone doesn’t convert, make them.

There are radicals on both sides. The Christians went on the crusades, you know, and conquistadors in the new world were not known to be peace-loving bearers of good news. If gov’t is secular- keep all religions out- it protects society from presidents who would try to force their religion on the general public.

If the message is so powerful then why do we specifically not allow the 10 commandents which are central to the message?

b/c others should not be subjected to having gov’t sponsored support of one religion. either all religions should get equal play time, or none at all. I prefer none at all.

Do you want to live in a country that persecutes Christians?

No. That’s my whole point in the importance of a secular gov’t. I don’t consider the 10 Commandments being taken down persecution. I consider the gov’t interferring with my wishes to attend mass persecution, and i consider being physically harmed persecution. But our Church and the message of our Church does not have to be ENDORSED by the gov’t. We just need people’s rights to be protected.

No. But one can turn their back on purposeless, material evolution based on bad science. Why is it that schools force this to be taught anyhow, even though it is based on bad science?

I do not agree that evolution is bad through and through. I don’t understand it all, but what I do know does not contradict with what the Church teaches, so I don’t feel threatened by it in anyway.
Tell me this, if you want Christianity declared in the science classroom, do you want Islam declared in another classroom?

I’d rather pledge allegiance to a country that submits to God than a country that puts itself overtop of God. The latter might just lead to accepting things such as starving disabled people to death.

Every mass you have the opportunity to declare before God and man your beliefs and dedication to the Church through the Creed. Take advantage of this, this is a wonderful thing. Pledging allegiance to a country or other organization is different though.

So you know more than Ben Franklin? He was full of kinks?

Ok, are you done putting words in my mouth?

 

[TarAshly]

Steph700:

Every mass you have the opportunity to declare before God and man your beliefs and dedication to the Church through the Creed. Take advantage of this, this is a wonderful thing. Pledging allegiance to a country or other organization is different though.

Again you ask us to leave our Faith in the pews most people wont do that out of respect for God. and no, i dont believe America is superior to other countries, did you miss the part where i stated God created this nation AND this world in its ENTIRETY?? I am PROUD through and through to be an American, but to be honest my favorite place on Earth is Cuernavaca Mexico. Its not about All America or All evil with me. it has to do with respect for the Country God gave us. I Thank GOD every day i was born a woman in America, and im not afraid to show that gratefulness to God after sunday mass. are you?

 

[springbreeze]

jlw:

My personal opinion is that we are better served with Mel in the private sector.

Although I would LOOOOOOOOVE to see Mel run against Arnold…Magesterial Catholic running against a Cafeteria Catholic??? Let’s get ready to RUUUUMMMMMBLLLLE!!

Dear friend

Yes …

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa