Mel Gibson pushed for President

[Steph700]

TarAshly:

Again you ask us to leave our Faith in the pews most people wont do that out of respect for God.

No I don’t. I’m just saying it shouldn’t be imposed on others through our government. Would you like state-sponsored Islam if a Muslim would come into power?

I Thank GOD every day i was born a woman in America, and im not afraid to show that gratefulness to God after sunday mass. are you?

Once again, you are making inappropriate assumptions. And once again, I will tell you that you have no place implying that I do not live out my faith fully. Do you still think it is ok to hurl insults about someone’s faith? Must one live as you live, and believe what you believe politically to be a true follower of Christ?

Just what, TarAsly, are you implying I am afraid of? I am out living IN the world… amongst non-believers… and I never hide my faith, but I would never assume it forced on anyone either.

 

[Richardols]

Brad:

The Christian faith allows for freedom of other faiths.

Historically, this is incorrect. Look at Church approved persecutions of other Christian groups in medieval France, for one example.

Isn’t it great that we have a diverse country and that our guiding principles are Christian, which allows people of many different faiths and backgrounds to live in freedom? You are right. We should never discriminate. That is guiding principle of Christianity.

I believe that the guiding principle of Christianity, at least as Christ taught it, was to love God above all, and your neighbor as yourself. And the reason people of many different faiths can live together in freedom here is precisely because we are NOT a Christian or other such country.

If you want a theocracy, move to Iran.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Richardols:

Historically, this is incorrect. Look at Church approved persecutions of other Christian groups in medieval France, for one example.

You wouldnt happen to be talking about the Abigensian Heresy, would you? They were hardly Christian. And it isn’t fair to compare medival europe with modern society.

 

[Richardols]

Scott_Lafrance:

You wouldnt happen to be talking about the Abigensian Heresy, would you?

Yes, in that case.

They were hardly Christian.

But, it was still persecution.

And it isn’t fair to compare medival europe with modern society.

The statement made was that the Christian faith allows for the freedom other faiths, not that modern Christianity allows for the freedom of other faiths.

And, the Christian faith didn’t allow all that much freedom to the Jews over the centuries either.

No question but that has changed today, however.

 

[Brad]

Steph700:

There are radicals on both sides. The Christians went on the crusades, you know, and conquistadors in the new world were not known to be peace-loving bearers of good news. If gov’t is secular- keep all religions out- it protects society from presidents who would try to force their religion on the general public.

Oh the crusades. Perhaps next you will bring up the Inquisition, followed closely by Galileo and the Reformation. Again, I suggest your read up on these events from accurate sources rather than accepting secular academic collegiate education as the final word.

So you are saying a secular government protects everyone? What is the guiding principles of all atheists if they get into office? What if they all decided all the Bibles in the country should be burned? You can make a secular moral judgement that this is a good thing to do - after all, we would get rid of all that hate speech in the Bible.

I’m looking for good people in office. Not radicals - unless they are radicals for Christ - the most peaceful person ever.

Steph700:

b/c others should not be subjected to having gov’t sponsored support of one religion. either all religions should get equal play time, or none at all. I prefer none at all.

You prefer this great message doesn’t get out except is someone randomly walks into Church? You want to keep it all to yourself? No Christianity in public schools, colleges, hospitals, government buildings, parks, courts, streets, comanies that accept government aid…? What should our laws be based on if not the 10 commandments? Some personal whimsly of a secularist who was elected into office or appointed to the courts?

Steph700:

No. That’s my whole point in the importance of a secular gov’t. I don’t consider the 10 Commandments being taken down persecution. I consider the gov’t interferring with my wishes to attend mass persecution, and i consider being physically harmed persecution. But our Church and the message of our Church does not have to be ENDORSED by the gov’t. We just need people’s rights to be protected.

And you do not think that if we continue down this road that they will not interfere with the mass if “hate speech” is being taught? Do you not think the ACLU and those with an agenda for homosexual “rights” are not headed down this path? How about the pharmicist in Illinois who MUST prescribe birth control or Catholic Charities in California that MUST provide free birth control coverage. How about the 4 Christians that were arrested in Philadelphia for reading the Bible in public on a public street? How about Terri Schiavo being dehydrated directly against the teachings of her faith? Is none of this religous persecution? Whose rights are being violated when the government says Christianity is a good idea but you do not have to be a Christian?

Steph700:

I do not agree that evolution is bad through and through. I don’t understand it all, but what I do know does not contradict with what the Church teaches, so I don’t feel threatened by it in anyway.
Tell me this, if you want Christianity declared in the science classroom, do you want Islam declared in another classroom?

All of evolutionary theory does not contradict the teaching of the Church. However, portions of the theory taught as fact in school do violate teaching of the Church. In particular, the idea that humans are the random result of purposeless material evolution AND that the world came into being without a creator.

I don’t want Christianity declared in the science classroom. I want science to be taught within it’s own limitations and admit when it does not know something or is unclear on something.

Would I object to a class that taught different tenants of all major religions? Not at all. That would actually be a good idea.

Steph700:

Every mass you have the opportunity to declare before God and man your beliefs and dedication to the Church through the Creed. Take advantage of this, this is a wonderful thing. Pledging allegiance to a country or other organization is different though.

I agree. It is much different. The pledge doesn’t make great religous claims though and it is a way of uniting people that live in the same country.

Steph700:

Ok, are you done putting words in my mouth?

Nope. Can I buy a vowel?

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

Mel Gibson, and the movies he made, not to mention Passion of The Christ which was at least a religious expeierience unlike many things i have ever experienced. However, how Catholic is Mel Gibson, was he this great Catholic peerson like everyone says, besides the interview with Diane Sawyer, and The Passion of The Christ. other than that i have not seen much more evidence. Any thoughts? Please!

 

[Brad]

Richardols:

Historically, this is incorrect. Look at Church approved persecutions of other Christian groups in medieval France, for one example.

Why is this so difficult to grasp? I’m not talking about baptized Christians that sin. I’m talking about the fundamental tenants of a philosophy, in this case Christianity. The principles of Christianity allow for freedom, in particularly of faith.

Richardols:

I believe that the guiding principle of Christianity, at least as Christ taught it, was to love God above all, and your neighbor as yourself. And the reason people of many different faiths can live together in freedom here is precisely because we are NOT a Christian or other such country.

If you want a theocracy, move to Iran.

Christ raised up the dignity of every human person. Ever wonder why the Pope talked about a “culture of life” and “human dignity”? These were not his ideas. These were Christ’s ideas. Loving your neighbor as yourself means loving everyone, no matter what they look like or what they believe. A theocracy implies forcing your beliefs on others. Why do you confuse a theocracy with Christian-based leadership? What are you so afraid of? Do you think GW is going to lock you up if you aren’t praying at 9pm daily?

This country was founded by Christians and it’s leaders have been Christian since it’s inception. To deny this is to deny history and to deny reality. And it is for this reason (being a Judeo-Christian law based country) that we have freedom. Next time you go see Jesus, thank Him for that.

 

[Brad]

Richardols:

The statement made was that the Christian faith allows for the freedom other faiths, not that modern Christianity allows for the freedom of other faiths.

And, the Christian faith didn’t allow all that much freedom to the Jews over the centuries either.

No question but that has changed today, however.

Any Christians that have persecuted others (and again, let’s be clear, the scale of persecution against Christians historically tramples any persecution by Christians), were sinning and were not following the Christian faith. Why do you think atheists would make better leaders that solid Christians? You think they would be automatically against persecution? Have you asked any survivors from the Soviet Union if this is true?

 

[Richardols]

Brad:

The principles of Christianity allow for freedom, in particularly of faith.

Give me a Scriptural citation. Chistianity is in fact a very jealous religion.

This country was founded by Christians and it’s leaders have been Christian since it’s inception.

Some founders were Christians, some not. Some leaders have been Christian, some not.

And it is for this reason (being a Judeo-Christian law based country) that we have freedom.

We’re free because we are a secular nation where all are equal where no particular faith dominates. The U.S. Constitution makes no reference to “Judeo-Christianity.”

 

[Brad]

Sean.McKenzie:

Mel Gibson, and the movies he made, not to mention Passion of The Christ which was at least a religious expeierience unlike many things i have ever experienced. However, how Catholic is Mel Gibson, was he this great Catholic peerson like everyone says, besides the interview with Diane Sawyer, and The Passion of The Christ. other than that i have not seen much more evidence. Any thoughts? Please!

He stood up against the killing of Terri Schiavo in a large way.

He gave many interviews regarding the Passion in which he publically expressed his faith quite often.

He was persecuted relentlessly during the making of the film but did it anyways because it was the right thing to do.

He’s working on additional Catholic based movies.

 

[Fiat]

Richardols:

We’re free because we are a secular nation where all are equal where no particular faith dominates. The U.S. Constitution makes no reference to “Judeo-Christianity.”

Imposing your secularism on anyone hardly makes that person free. Come on Richardols, you’re an attorney. You know as well as I do that there are an awful lot of laws lining the shelves of our U.S. Law Libraries. How do those laws make us free, exactly, particularly when the very nature of secular laws are designed so that you are protected from me?

Likewise, I would point out that Christ very clearly says that the TRUTH will set us free. In case you don’t know, we Catholic Christians are to believe that Jesus Christ is the way, the TRUTH, and the life. If you think that true freedom is found in an atheistic form of government, then I worry about the nature of your faith.

 

[Richardols]

Fiat:

Imposing your secularism on anyone hardly makes that person free. Come on Richardols, you’re an attorney. You know as well as I do that there are an awful lot of laws lining the shelves of our U.S. Law Libraries. How do those laws make us free, exactly, particularly when the very nature of laws involves protecting you from me?

Thanks for correcting my misphrased sentence. We are not free because we are a secular nation. You are correct.

Being a secular nation means that no particular religious group can impose its ideology on us as a nation and that all religious groups are equal in America.

 

[Fiat]

Richardols:

Being a secular nation means that no particular religious group can impose its ideology on us as a nation and that all religious groups are equal in America.

That’s the definition??? Has anyone told this to Deng Xiaoping?

 

[Richardols]

Fiat:

That’s the definition??? Has anyone told this to Deng Xiaoping?

I didn’t know that you were looking for a precise definition. There are pages and pages written on what it means to be a secular nation as opposed to a theocracy. I was just giving you my IMO about our secular government in America.

How would it matter to Deng?

 

[Fiat]

Richardols:

I didn’t know that you were looking for a precise definition. There are pages and pages written on what it means to be a secular nation as opposed to a theocracy. I was just giving you my IMO about our secular government in America.

How would it matter to Deng?

I find it disconcerting that you are quick and willing to triumph the blessings of a secular government when you either have not or cannot define what a secular government is for us; or recognize that one person’s idea of secularism differs from another; or appreciate the fact that truth is not found within the conceptual framework of secularism, but within the conceptual framework of Christ’s church.

Also, it matters to Deng because he’s part of the human race and he has a soul.

 

[Richardols]

Fiat:

I find it disconcerting that you are quick and willing to triumph the blessings of a secular government when you either have not or cannot define what a secular government is for us

I or any other American can be quick to triumph the blessings of living in our country without providing others with a definition of what the American Exprerience is.

or recognize that one person’s idea of secularism differs from another;

I did say IMO. You may have another definition. And someone else another still. Fine.

or appreciate the fact that truth is not found within the conceptual framework of secularism, but within the conceptual framework of Christ’s church.

I was speaking of the benefit of having a secular state, not of the truth of Catholicism.

Also, it matters to Deng because he’s part of the human race and he has a soul.

I doubt that he would agree with you.

 

[Bella3502]

Steph700:

Read my lips… I stand behind seperation of church and state.

Can we return to my hypothetical situation that a Muslim gov’t comes into power. Would you want your children bowing in prayer 5 times a day towards Mecca? Would you want excerps from the Koran displayed at courthouses? Do you want the name of Allah on your money?

If we allow America to be governed by religion, what happens when we are no longer safe and sound with leaders who happen to share our judeo-christian ethics?

Sounds like a scary scenario to me.

I totally agree… Why can’t you be Catholic and Patriotic, or Jewish and Patriotic, Baptist and Patriotic, or Muslim and Patriotic?

We ALL make up America. And we all should have Religious Freedom.

I don’t want the Koran displayed at courthouses any more than the Ten Commandments. I know what they mean, I don’t need to see them displayed. We take our children to Church for a reason. I don’t send them to Public schools to learn religion.

 

[Fiat]

I or any other American can be quick to triumph the blessings of living in our country without providing others with a definition of what the American Exprerience is.

Careful, ole boy…you’re changing the standard. My word wasn’t the “blessing of living in our country,” my phrase was secular government.

I doubt that he would agree with you.

He doesn’t have to agree with anyone. Whether he agrees with me or not is of little consequence to me. He just has to be prepared to confront Truth.

 

[Richardols]

Fiat:

Careful, ole boy…you’re changing the standard. My word wasn’t the “blessing of living in our country,” my phrase was secular government.

You said, “…you are quick and willing to triumph the blessing of a secular government” without providing a definition, as if that were a fault. My point is that one can triumph any number of things without providing a definition and I gave you an example of such. Catholics can triumph the blessing of Catholicism without having to provide a definition of it. Capish?

He doesn’t have to agree with anyone. Whether he agrees with me or not is of little consequence to me. He just has to be prepared to confront Truth.

If it’s of little consequence to you, why even mention it?

 

[Fiat]

You said, “…you are quick and willing to triumph the blessing of a secular government” without providing a definition, as if that were a fault. My point is that one can triumph any number of things without providing a definition and I gave you an example of such. Catholics can triumph the blessing of Catholicism without having to provide a definition of it. Capish?

Nope. Still don’t understand. You attempted to praise secularism, indicating that it is our secular government which makes us free. I corrected you on this, and you accepted the correction. Because you now agree that secularism does not make us free, you have offered nothing else of the American experience to praise. (This is not to imply that there IS nothing else in the American experience to praise. Surely there is. But you haven’t offered anything.)

And, I brought up Deng to illustrate that your notion that secularism equalizes religions would never be accepted by Deng. Do you care? Probably not.