Mental Illness and Leaving the Church

[Knightswhosayni]

I’ll be honest. I got turned off by alot of Saints via reading their own words or actions. I never had a problem with asking their intercession. It was emulation that tripped me up. Some of their ways of perfection repulsed me so much, I just gave up on the concept of being a Saint. Example: physical neglect(can we say eating disorder?) , self-flagellation or fear of the slightest sin. Those practices turned me way off as being insanity.

 

[EllieC]

She is an example. And we continue to strive for greater holiness. She is always someone we can look up to. Have you read any of Therésè of Lisieux? She wrote a lot about feeling it was impossible to even climb one stair to holiness. That she could only do it if God carried her. I don’t know that that really answered your question though…

 

[Knightswhosayni]

Her small way is much more relatable and reasonable. Didnt she have excessive fear of the slightest sin? That always goes too far for me from what I remember reading.

 

[EllieC]

Yes, she did have scrupulosity. And scrupulosity is not good. That is definitely not what makes a saint, it is just something she struggled with. You don’t have to be a mystic. You don’t have to throw away all of your shoes and sleep on dirt. The saints are examples to look up to. Again you don’t need to do exactly what one of them does. God created you uniquely, and every saint is unique. You become the saint that you are becoming on your own path of holiness. You don’t have to go to Calcutta to help the poor, you can find Calcutta in your own backyard. Basically I am saying, you can live and strive to be a Saint right where you live as you are.

 

[Johncardic]

I am somewhat confused.What exactly are you suffering from?I have suffered and suffer from what you would call mental illness,but i think we can both agree that no mental illness is the same.the church wants every man and women to be saints.You see,it is through doing the right thing(with the lords help) that man comes to salvation,and to do the right thing always is to be a saint.We need to purify ourselves before being welcomed to heaven.Now,i am sure you have heard all of this before,but if you do not tell us what you need help,i am not sure we can give you any real advice.We both know that with this thread it was expected to hear common replies defending the church,but i assume you don’t want standard apologetic but something more concrete.i would recommend that you read the problem of pain by C.S Lewis.You most understand that man is faulty and that you can’t expect one single man to know all of your problems.Ask for help and we shall try our best,for a brother cares for a brother,a sister cares for a brother and vice versa.

 

[EllieC]

Also, saints did these things in response to that Jesus says “My will is to conquer the whole world and all my enemies and thus enter into the glory of my Father. Therefore, whoever wishes to come with me must labor with me, so that through following me in the pain he or she may also follow me in the glory.” And in response, the disciple not only devotes him or herself to laboring for the kingdom but also imitating Christ’s way of living. They desired to show greater devotion and total service to our loving God who sent His son that sacrificed all of himself for our sake. They worked against their fleshly and worldly desires to make offerings of greater service and praise.
“Fasting cleanses the soul, raises the mind, subjects one’s flesh to the spirit, renders the heart contrite and humble, scatters the clouds of concupiscence, quenches the fire of lust, and kindles the true light of chastity. Enter again into yourself.”
They focused on the fact that the things of this life are all temporary and realized the longing they had that only God could fill.
But, how does that look for you specifically? That does not mean, again, that you have to do crazy things to be a saint and to be holy. St. Pope John Paul II was not doing these intense types of things nor was Archbishop Fulton Sheen (soon to be on the steps to being a saint). Be the saint God created you to be in your life currently, know that you were not created to be a repeat of these other saints. We can look up to them. And pray for their intercession as well. I hope that is helpful.

 

[Knightswhosayni]

I have a degree in Psychology and I’m certain I have Borderline personality disorder and a good dose of Narcissism. ADHD as well. I’m not the worst, by any means. In fact, I have great compassion for those who’ve suffered horrendous abuse that I never did. I just find more comfort in analyzing my behavior from a Psychological and Scientific standpoint. I need practical help as does anyone who struggles with this. Religion just leaves me knowing that something I have is a complete roadblock to Sainthood, with no answer to stop it. And, it leads all my children into this pit as well. It’s conterintuiative to have a vocation to raise children, but not just with a tendency to sin. A tendency to be cruel and emotionally horrible. My selfishness isn’t regular selfishness. It’s rooted in emotional stressors and irrational needs from others. I’m trying to learn all the skills to get better. Religion does focus on behavior and character, but in an unhelpful way. Let’s be honest, the church rubs these things in your face. Their only answer is to pray and deny yourself. You cant deny yourself if you’re an emotionally immature child
So I pray and my kids pray, and their mother doesn’t change until she gets answers from Psychology. I’d rather not continue to seek help where their aren’t solutions.

 

[Knightswhosayni]

And, when religious and books talk about Saints, they gloss over the eating disorder, or the self-flagellation, or the scrupulousness as heroic and virtuous. That’s wrong and ridiculous in my opinion. Just because a behavior is for God does not make it wise or heroic.

 

[Knightswhosayni]

I have a degree in Psychology and I’m certain I have Borderline personality disorder and a good dose of Narcissism. ADHD as well. So, anxiety and depression go hand in hand with all of this. I’m not the worst, by any means. In fact, I have great compassion for those who’ve suffered horrendous abuse that I never did. I just find more comfort in analyzing my behavior from a Psychological and Scientific standpoint. I need practical help as does anyone who struggles with this. Religion just leaves me knowing that something I have is a complete roadblock to Sainthood, with no answer to stop it. And, it leads all my children into this pit as well. It’s conterintuiative to have a vocation to raise children, but not just with a tendency to sin. A tendency to be cruel and emotionally horrible. My selfishness isn’t regular selfishness. It’s rooted in emotional stressors and irrational needs from others. I’m trying to learn all the skills to get better. Religion does focus on behavior and character, but in an unhelpful way. Let’s be honest, the church rubs these things in your face. Their only answer is to pray and deny yourself. You cant deny yourself if you’re an emotionally immature child
So I pray and my kids pray, and their mother doesn’t change until she gets answers from Psychology. I’d rather not continue to seek help where there aren’t solutions.

 

[Knightswhosayni]

Oh, yeah. When I was in a Catholic support group for depression, m anxiety and depression got worse.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I feel that responsibility falls on the church here. You advertise perfection. You advertise having all the answers.

In my decades of experience as a Catholic, the Catholic Church has never claimed to be perfect or to have all the answers to everything in life. The vast majority of Catholics wouldn’t have believed such a claim even if the Church did make it.

They make it about us with homilies focusing on how we are all failing God all the time. Have you not heard those?

Can’t say I have. Most homilies I’ve heard in my life are “feel good” talks and do not focus on our “failings”. Even when they do focus on ways we could improve, it’s usually some suggestion like “be kind to others” that any rational human would have known they should do anyway, even if they didn’t come to Mass and hear about it.

I would gently suggest that you are projecting your idea of what the Church is, onto the Church, rather than seeing it as it truly is. You seem to need some kind of mental health or life skills help that the Church is not providing to you. That’s likely because the Church’s mission is not to help people with their mental health or their life skills like how to parent. The Church’s mission is to bring people closer to God through the Mass and the sacraments. To the extent the Church can also help with other needs, like providing food, clothing, shelter, and a limited amount of emotional support, it tries to do that, but it is not in the business of providing any of those things.

If you need mental health help, please see a mental health professional. Don’t expect a Church support group to fix that for you.

 

[Knightswhosayni]

I just don’t see how it’s not a reasonable assumption to make?? Especially for converts or those not growing up as church goers. Isnt having all the answers to your spiritual and behavioral problems what every church advertises?? Ask, and you shall receive. Seek and ye shall find. We have the grace you need here in our church. But, it’s the followers fault when it fails or doesn’t provide this?? That makes zero sense.

 

[Annie]

We could all be like her, if we weren’t raising sinners as sinners.

Mary had her troubles, and we have ours. Thinking that we could be holy if not for… {the other nuns I have to live with, my terrible parents, my being stuck alone, etc}, well it is those circumstances which seem to be blocking us from holiness that will be the means of our sanctification.

It would be like a person recovering from a broken leg saying, my leg would get better faster if I didn’t have to do all these PT exercises!

Maybe if I put my focus on her humility that would be helpful? Thanks.

Exactly

I’ll be honest. I got turned off by alot of Saints via reading their own words or actions. I never had a problem with asking their intercession. It was emulation that tripped me up. Some of their ways of perfection repulsed me so much, I just gave up on the concept of being a Saint. Example: physical neglect(can we say eating disorder?) , self-flagellation or fear of the slightest sin. Those practices turned me way off as being insanity.

I think this is a really hard thing to grasp about the saints. OTOH, I also can be inspired to do better. They fasted to the point of seeming to have an eating disorder… but is it an eating disorder? Or is it their love for God?

One thing I really like that St Therese of Lisieaux said is the part where the saints in Heaven are different “sizes.” So one saint is a “little” saint, maybe a forget-me-not, and another is a glorious rose!

So what we are supposed to do is to become the best of what we are: I should become the best me, and you should become the best you, and Mary succeeded in becoming the best her.

We should emulate the saints in love of God, desire and striving for holiness, and the virtues. But the actions of this or that saint might totally not work for us. We should not flagellate ourselves because a saint did, but we should strive to love and be grateful to Christ as much as that saint did. That might be seen in the plant world as being the best color we can be, while not changing our shape.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

And, when religious and books talk about Saints, they gloss over the eating disorder, or the self-flagellation, or the scrupulousness as heroic and virtuous. That’s wrong and ridiculous in my opinion. Just because a behavior is for God does not make it wise or heroic.

This is a huge overgeneralization. I’ve read quite a few books and articles on saints that did not “gloss over” any of those things and told it like it was, warts and all. As with any topic, some sources are better written and more comprehensive/ in-depth than others.

Nor have I seen any modern sources that present scrupulosity, self-flagellation, or eating disorders as wonderful things. When we’re talking about saints who lived many centuries ago, it’s important to understand the saint’s behavior in the context of their time, when extreme fasting or self-flagellation were not regarded as “disorders”. There are some very good sources recently written on St. Catherine of Siena and how her extreme fasting and other behavior actually put her in a powerful position to carry out Church reform; she wouldn’t have had that power otherwise. If you’re truly interested in reading about saints rather than just criticizing the Church, you could seek out these types of books and articles.

 

[Knightswhosayni]

Maybe I did have wrong expectations about what I would receive once I converted.

 

[Servant31]

Hey Knight, I’m sorry to hear about the struggles.
Is there anything we can do to help? Is there some hurdle your having a tougher time with specifically?
It sounds like there us some frustration there?

I’m a lifelong catholic that was away from the church for a while (revert). In my life the experience has varied widely depending on where I was personally, but sometimes where the local community was. I’ve also dealt with mental illness before and honestly my faith community has been some of the best. But also, on rare occasion a few of the worst if I’m honest, including a few polemical people on this forum.

But overall that was the rarer of the two. Usually when things weren’t going well in the relationship one of us, me or the person I was engaging with, wasn’t doing what doctrine taught. Often times I could cite an area where I needed to grow, or others did.

One thing that helped me some… God isn’t a list of rules and laws. He is a spirit which which we are in relationship with. We are supposed to grow in holiness through this. Sure the rules matter, but you have to take them in context. God loves us as we are. He made us. Sure we need to grow in holiness but that can take different forms.

Just some random thoughts, something in there help at all?

 

[Knightswhosayni]

Look, I’m talking through my lens and experiences. I’ve found a rejection through what I’ve experienced. Maybe I do at times have false perceptions. Maybe I was exposed to scrupulous opinions. The church is pretty heavy doling out criticism and guilt. Why can’t it take a bit of criticism as well? Why is that offensive?

 

[Johncardic]

You went into this catholic support for depression with great hopes but came out disillusioned.It is normal to feel worse after losing hope.Hope is a strong feeling and has saved many people from despair.The church rubs on our faces the glorious work of the saints and their complete servitude to god,so that we do not feel discouraged in pursuing the lord.For many have sinned,feeling like there was no way to redeem themselves,and they were lead to even more sin and ultimately to hell.The church tells man that there is always a way to redeem ourselves as long we possess a contrite heart and are willing to repent.It seems to me that you are incredibly narcissistic and are used to be served,but not to serve others.Do not take this as an offence,for most suffer from visions of pride and humiliation onto others though all in different degrees.Do you have a spiritual director?I assume you don’t,so i think you should speak with a priest for he is someone who interacts with you every week and if that priest doesn’t know what to say,then go to another.You could always visit a order of nuns and spend a weekend with them,and see if they can help you.I say this,because you seem to have a million notions that have to be either killed or rectified,and this is an ongoing process,not something that one simple thread can do.

In today’s age,it is increasingly harder for people to understand the saints.Now,you must remember that god is not simply a random being who just happened to be omnipotent.He is not only omnipotent,but he is also all that is good and possesses no defect.So for example think of anything that you love.Now,surely you must have noted some defect in that thing.He can’t always keep you happy,the happiness that he provides is not great,they might not behave in a manner that is always good,he might change and that change might not be pleasant for you.Now,you must understand that god has none of the defects.Since he has no defects,he is the summit of experience for with him we can be happy forever,and not just any normal happiness but the highest man can experience.

 

[Knightswhosayni]

Yes, that is helpful for you to say. I live in a very conservative area, and I guess when I was newly discovering my issues, I was hearing all the negative. For a long time, I was trying so hard to live up to the ideals and advice. All I could see was failure. That is a huge part of my illness. One priest just loved to constantly shame the congregation for not doing enough, etc. He wasn’t a horrible priest by any means, but loved to talk about sin, sin, sin. Advice from Catholic women was be like Mary, have a thousand children, dont deny your spouse, and on and on. The judgments of followers and representatives have just been so horrible. I stopped reading and I stopped comparing. I knew it wasn’t helpful. I now just view religion as a community to remind me to try to do better. I do not see it as a place for answers to my problems at all.

 

[EllieC]

But, I think we can’t look at Catholicism as a book of answers. We cannot walk in thinking once we are Catholic, everything will be solved and happy. Being a Catholic in this world is hard and is difficult. Our struggles are the crosses we carry daily and we find rest in God who loves us so much. We find complete peace, complete love, complete joy one day… in Heaven. We have to remember that here on Earth in this life, it is not going to be easy. It is going to be difficult. Yes, prayer is so important. We must pray. We have faith, that even when God seems far away, even when things feel difficult, we will carry our struggles because we love him so much and our hearts were made for him. Because we know we will find ultimate fulfillment in Heaven, and not jumping from comfort to comfort in this life for instant relief.