Mercy in Islam

[Keikiolu]

Deacon Charlie Connell sent me an email with the archdiocese response [emphasis his]:

Quote:Hi Annette,There is no need to go any higher authority than the Catechism of the Catholic Church, article 841. It states clearly that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God:The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."Of course this article is based on the beautiful expression of our belief that there is only one God so anyone who seeks God by any name seeks the one true God contained in the Vatican II document, Lumen Gentium. Here are paragraphs 15 and 16 but I would strongly recommend you read the whole document: (cin.org/v2church.html)15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion Quote:Annette Hamilton wrote:Muchas gracias Deacon Cornell,>May I please quote your response in the conversation that >brought the question up? I think if I showed this to the person I >had the discussion with they would be greatful for the >clarification, and all the other Catholic readers would not be >confused about the issue. Sure and please give them the sources so they can go check it out themselves. The catechism is online at usccb.org/catechism/text/.and Paragraph 841 can be found at usccb.org/catechism/text/…hpt3art9p3.htmPeace,Deacon Charlie Cornell So… I think that this is now a matter of Obsequium religiosum, especially since it is in the dogmatic constitution…

Dominus Vobiscum

Very good then…!

You’ve made my point. Thank you

I do believe that common moslems do worship the One God, who is the Holy Trinity, whom they don’t recognize, but that islam, as an “organization”, does not describe the God that they are worshipping.

They understand the fact and the implications of there being ONE God, and above all that is what they worship, but since the (an?) implication of their also “believing” in the “truth” of islam, as expounded in the koran and islamic tradition, is to deny, vehemently, the Holy Trinity itself, which we know to be true, such that the god described by islam is not the same being as God.

You’ll have to show me, specifically, within Catholic Magisterial Proclamations, where it says that the holy book(s) of islam describe the God which we believe.

Once again,… if moslems really tried to reconcile the god of islam with the God that they profess, they’d fail, and flow into Christianity (or at least away from islam) like water.

…but they don’t try, for the reason given.

I realize this is “politically incorrect”, but it’s not contrary to the dictates of the Magisterium, and a potentially very powerful insight for speaking “productively” with moslems.

Thanks again for your support.

(( Once again: answering-islam.org/Hoaxes/vatican2.html ))

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[eldon]

hola eldon,

i think this is a strange argument since islam is just such a splinter group from the Holy Church. it seems like what you are saying is self fulfilling prophesy… there is an excellent book about how islam is a Catholic heresy… I will link you to it if you are interested.

I’ve read the Chick comic book which makes that claim, it’s preposterous frankly.

i do not think you are being entirely straightforward about the unitedness of muslims… there are countless divisions beyond sunni and shia (who fight and kill each other). there are also all the groups mentioned in this thread, and different schools of muslim laws which are very different. there are Baha’i, Druze, NOI, and other groups who have rejected fundamental points of Islamic belief that go beyond even the sunni and shia divide.

When one has “rejected fundamental points of Islamic belief” they are NOT Muslims. That is definitely the case with Shia, Bahai, Druze, NOI & etc.

We have a hadith which prevents us from remaining in fellowship with those who reject important facets of the Truth:

Book 37, Number 4322:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas’ud:

The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: The first defect that permeated Banu Isra’il was that a man (of them) met another man and said: O so-and-so, fear Allah, and abandon what you are doing, for it is not lawful for you. He then met him the next day and that did not prevent him from eating with him, drinking with him and sitting with him. When they did so. Allah mingled their hearts with each other.

He then recited the verse: “curses were pronounced on those among the children of Isra’il who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary”…up to “wrongdoers”.

He then said: By no means, I swear by Allah, you must enjoin what is good and prohibit what is evil, prevent the wrongdoer, bend him into conformity with what is right, and restrict him to what is right.

please interpret the Bible in light of the teachings of the Holy Church, not in light of other religions.

I must interpret Scripture by the Light that Allah gives me, I’ve found that Churches are rife with traditions which make void the Word of God.

 

[eldon]

You really don’t have to quote the bible. I know it. Why you continue to quote what you won’t rely on as true, is telling. It’s also hypocritical.

I quote the Bible because I’m sure you DON’T know it, otherwise you wouldn’t hold onto unbiblical doctrines like trinitarianism.

As for the Bible being true, it IS for the most part, despite some mistranslations, errant interpretations, additions, and alterations commonly made by men and their churches.

Where do you get Catholics think they are above error? Only one faith in this conversation makes that claim, though both claim truth.

One of you in this very thread claimed to be of the Church of which Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against it… despite the fact that your church is filled with error via traditions opposed to other words of Jesus !

Besides that, there is the famous claim of Papal Infallibility, which certainly implies that your church is above error.

The divisions in Christianity are not as striking as you claim. With a few exceptions their disagreements are non-violent unlike Islam’s few excetions of peacefull disagreements. The core belief that Jesus is One with the Father, was born of the Virgin, suffered, died, and resurrected- is not in dispute by true Christians. There are as many Catholics as Muslims. There are an equal number of non-Catholic Christians that still believe those core beliefs if dispute various fine points.

Demanding belief in the Trinity and in **the deity of Christ **(as does the Athanasian Creed) is a FAR cry from the scriptural statement that “Jesus is one with the Father” !

It is precisely those points of dogma that have invalidated Christianity in general from being an authentic Faith according to Revelation, since those dogmas have supplanted genuine core beliefs required by Scripture.

Even if all Christiandom could unite, hold hands, and pray together, its people are still hopelessly divided because of their historical departure from Truth in favor of tradition.

Like JW & Mormons, Islam has a distorted view of Christ, and what you identify as “Jesus’ Islamic followers”; if they are following the Jesus described in the Qur’an they follow incorrectly.

I said it before: you can’t believe both books.

People have said and still say the same thing about the Law of Moses and the New Testament: you can’t believe both books, but Jesus (as) said that the best of his disciples would keep and teach even the least commandments of the Law while following him. Yet we don’t see much of that among Christians…

The Jesus described in the Quran is the same one described in the NT: a blessed, devoted servant and worshipper of the ONLY True God.

 

[jack_hawkins]

I’ve read the Chick comic book which makes that claim, it’s preposterous frankly

a rebuttal, not a refutation
of course Islam is a heresy of the Judaeo-Christian tradition
it’s not like independent major religions eg Buddhism and Hinduism
“Muhammad” synthesized his new faith out of Judaism and Christianity and various ideas floating about, and then claimed that the Judaeo-Christian heritage, the prophets and Jesus, were Muslims???
that fits the definition of heresy for me anyway

 

[jack_hawkins]

I quote the Bible because I’m sure you DON’T know it, otherwise you wouldn’t hold onto unbiblical doctrines like trinitarianism

IMO you overestimate your Biblical knowledge, judging from previous exchanges
at the very least you selectively quote, which might lead some less knowledgeable Christians astray eg about fulfilling the law (not keeping it), which is amply illustrated from reading Acts 10, 21 for example
Jesus is so different from “Muhammad”, that they are not compatible in the same belief system
“Muhammad” despised Jews, despite them being the people of God

 

[eldon]

You missed the point: Jesus only had a holy nature-- NOT an unholy nature also. However, the body of sin that was crucified was definitely of an unholy nature, “made to be sin”.

That proves a definite CHANGE of persona on or before the cross which is also what the Quran specifies. Those who dismiss the Quran as falsity are neglecting to consider what the New Testament teaches as to the WHOLE scenario, especially in light of Leviticus 16 which stipulates that the Scapegoat, the goat set free, made the Atonement for the people of Israel, NOT the goat who was slain.

If the OT meant as much to you as it is supposed to mean, as per Matthew 5:17-19, you would not gloss over the OT specifications of Atonement, and would see that the Quran is in accord with what the Bible teaches in this matter

That heresy (originally adopted by the Gnostics I believe) is specifically refuted in the NT, which you should know as a former Catholic.

I’m quoting the NT when I say “God made Jesus to BE sin” : 2Corinthians 5:21 … I trust you agree that Paul was not a heretic, gnostic or otherwise.

You ignore the Passover Lamb in your very blinkered study of the typology of the crucifixion, which is why you have come to the wrong conclusion you have.

The Passover Lamb didn’t make Atonement for all Israel, it only spared the firstborn sons of Israel from death on that night when the Death angel passed through Egypt.

I have been able to keep charitable, which is a struggle with someone who is effectively spitting on the blood of Jesus Christ like you are.

On the contrary, what made that blood so Precious was that it was shed as a result of Jesus’ submission to the Will of Allah-- shed first of all in fact, even as he was praying earnestly in the Garden TO submit himself to the Father’s Will. (Luke 22:44)

Thus, the Life that was in that blood IS submission to the Most High, which submission all believers should emulate.

The Passover Lamb was killed and eaten, thus causing the Angel of Death to pass over. That is the foreshadowing of the Crucifixion.

Again, it only caused the Angel of Death to pass over the firstborn sons of Israel, it was not an Atonement for all Israel.

The Judas Goat undoubtedly died, it was cast into the desert so using that as some justification for arguing that Christ didn’t die is very flimsy and bad Biblical scholarship frankly.

The Scapegoat was the one of the two goats upon whom the lot fell to be SPARED from death by sacrifice: Jesus enemies wanted to crucify HIM, the holy prophet that he was, but Allah made him to be sin– something else entirely different than his pure and holy nature which never died.

(For you to imply that the Scapegoat just went out into the wilderness and died is pretty unseemly: the Hebrew of the verse in question specifies it as “a land of seperation” to which a fit man led and released him. It’d be more fitting for that goat to be found and kept alive or to live as a wild goat in that land.)

By the way, it’s quite blasphemous for you to continue to refer to the Scapegoat as “the Judas goat”: you’re implying that Judas made the Atonement for Israel and worse yet, implying that the goat that made the Atonement for Israel was actually leading them to slaughter (since that is what the term Judas goat means, a goat trained to lead other goats into a place of confinement for transportation to the slaughterhouse.)

 

[eldon]

Jack Hawkins:

of course Islam is a heresy of the Judaeo-Christian tradition

Only because Judeo-Christian tradition itself is a heresy against the Old and New Testaments !

 

[jack_hawkins]

I’m quoting the NT when I say “God made Jesus to BE sin” : 2Corinthians 5:21 … I trust you agree that Paul was not a heretic, gnostic or otherwise

I’m not quite sure what point you’re trying to make???

The Passover Lamb didn’t make Atonement for all Israel, it only spared the firstborn sons of Israel from death on that night when the Death angel passed through Egypt

OK< what didn’t you understand about typology???

contrary, what made that blood so Precious was that it was shed as a result of Jesus’ submission to the Will of Allah-- shed first of all in fact, even as he was praying earnestly in the Garden TO submit himself to the Father’s Will. (Luke 22:44)

Thus, the Life that was in that blood IS submission to the Most High, which submission all believers should emulate

well that’s wrong for a start
many people have made sacrifices and submitted to God

it only caused the Angel of Death to pass over the firstborn sons of Israel, it was not an Atonement for all Israel.

vide supra

The Scapegoat was the one of the two goats upon whom the lot fell to be SPARED from death by sacrifice: Jesus enemies wanted to crucify HIM, the holy prophet that he was, but Allah made him to be sin-- something else entirely different than his pure and holy nature which never died.

right according to the Koran - so I reject that

u to imply that the Scapegoat just went out into the wilderness and died is pretty unseemly: the Hebrew of the verse in question specifies it as “a land of seperation” to which a fit man led and released him. It’d be more fitting for that goat to be found and kept alive or to live as a wild goat in that land.)

right, so you’re saying if someone dropped you in the middle of the desert they wouldn’t be trying to kill you…
interesting

way, it’s quite blasphemous for you to continue to refer to the Scapegoat as “the Judas goat”: you’re implying that Judas made the Atonement for Israel and worse yet, implying that the goat that made the Atonement for Israel was actually leading them to slaughter (since that is what the term Judas goat means, a goat trained to lead other goats into a place of confinement for transportation to the slaughterhouse.)

it’s not blasphemous, worshipping “Muhammad” is blasphemous:thumbsup:

 

[jack_hawkins]

Only because Judeo-Christian tradition itself is a heresy against the Old and New Testaments !

according to the Koran and “Muhammad” - yeah right!

a new religion is devised and you claim it was around before - so where’s the proof? answer: there isn’t any
so guess what? it’s a new religion with pretensions to grandeur

 

[eldon]

Jack Hawkins:

at the very least you selectively quote, which might lead some less knowledgeable Christians astray eg about fulfilling the law (not keeping it), which is amply illustrated from reading Acts 10, 21 for example

Jesus (as) said that the best of his disciples would KEEP and teach even the least of the commandments (Matthew 5:19)

Jesus is so different from “Muhammad”, that they are not compatible in the same belief system

Book 030, Number 5836:
Abu Huraira reported many ahadith from Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and one is that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I am most close to Jesus, son of Mary, among the whole of mankind in this worldly life and the next life. They said: Allah’s Messenger how is it? Thereupon he said: Prophets are brothers in faith, having different mothers. Their religion is, however, one and there is no Apostle between us (between I and Jesus Christ).

“Muhammad” despised Jews, despite them being the people of God

I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews and are not but are the synagogue of Satan… (words of Jesus in Revelation 2:9)

 

[jack_hawkins]

oh dear Eldon
quoting the Koran to prove a point about Christianity - won’t wash, sorry
I have already refuted your point, so I can’t see the point in you repeating your original point
are you running out of things to say perchance?

BTW these Hadiths don’t say embarassing things so are accepted as “authentic” - is that right?

 

[eldon]

Originally Posted by eldon
Only because Judeo-Christian tradition itself is a heresy against the Old and New Testaments !

according to the Koran and “Muhammad” - yeah right!

a new religion is devised and you claim it was around before - so where’s the proof? answer: there isn’t any
so guess what? it’s a new religion with pretensions to grandeur

3:67 Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah’s (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.

 

[eldon]

I have already refuted your point,

In the post in question, Jesus and Muhammad refuted your points, peace be upon them.

BTW these Hadiths don’t say embarassing things so are accepted as “authentic” - is that right?:thumbsup

What is authentic according to Hadith science is a long discussion, but to save you some time here’s a good start:

~Whoever quotes a saying attributed to me, yet does not believe in his heart that I have said it: he is a dweller in the Fire~

The hadith that each person chooses to quote will judge him in the Last Day, for his intentions either for or against the Truth.

 

[jack_hawkins]

well eldon I read the Bible properly not just selecting verses and twisting their meaning
since “Muhammad” is one of the anti-Christs, I will tend to do the opposite of what he says generally (and don’t be tiresome and mention specific examples of the odd moral thing he said, it doesn’t alter the thrust of my point)

 

[jack_hawkins]

Originally Posted by eldon
Only because Judeo-Christian tradition itself is a heresy against the Old and New Testaments !

3:67 Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah’s (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.

which is a quote from the Koran - enough said!!!

 

[Verisimilitude]

I quote the Bible because I’m sure you DON’T know it, otherwise you wouldn’t hold onto unbiblical doctrines like trinitarianism.

That is quite a bold and unqualified statement. I have had this tired debate before with Muslims. If you want to explore Scripture to that detail I’m all for it, but the same goes for The Qur’an. But then I’ve had that tired debate too. :banghead:

As for the Bible being true, it IS for the most part, despite some mistranslations, errant interpretations, additions, and alterations commonly made by men and their churches.

You can admit such common errors to any book but the Qur’an? I’d ask you to define such errors, but I know them as you see them. Your arguments are hollow.

One of you in this very thread claimed to be of the Church of which Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against it… despite the fact that your church is filled with error via traditions opposed to other words of Jesus !

I wonder, since you do not grasp the concept of sacrifice, why should I expect you to comprehend the gates of hell statement and definition of prevail?

Besides that, there is the famous claim of Papal Infallibility, which certainly implies that your church is above error.

The Papacy has an authority from Christ you do not recognize, but yet you give that authority to a 7th century theif.

Demanding belief in the Trinity and in **the deity of Christ **(as does the Athanasian Creed) is a FAR cry from the scriptural statement that “Jesus is one with the Father” !

How far a cry?

It is precisely those points of dogma that have invalidated Christianity in general from being an authentic Faith according to Revelation, since those dogmas have supplanted genuine core beliefs required by Scripture.

Whose revelation- Muhammeds?

Even if all Christiandom could unite, hold hands, and pray together, its people are still hopelessly divided because of their historical departure from Truth in favor of tradition.

Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, “I find no fault in Him at all.

And even if Islam could unite, sharpen their jihadist blades, and fight non-Muslims together, it’s still hopelessly divided because of the actual departure from Truth in favor of a Lie.

People have said and still say the same thing about the Law of Moses and the New Testament: you can’t believe both books, but Jesus (as) said that the best of his disciples would keep and teach even the least commandments of the Law while following him. Yet we don’t see much of that among Christians…

What people? What did Jesus say that contradicts Moses? Since you know it so well, I need not quote it here, eh?

Yea, I better
John 5:44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Is this one of those mistranliterations you point to all the time?

The Jesus described in the Quran is the same one described in the NT: a blessed, devoted servant and worshipper of the ONLY True God.

No, it isn’t the same at all, and no matter how much you and other Muslims repeat it, it does not make it true.

You mean this:
John 14: 26But the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, Standby), the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name [in My place, to represent Me and act on My behalf], He will teach you all things. And He will cause you to recall (will remind you of, bring to your remembrance) everything I have told you.

to be this:

And (remember) when Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah unto you confirming the Taurat ((Torah) which came) before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed . But when he (Ahmed i.e. Muhammad SAW) came to them with clear proofs, they said: “This is plain magic.”
( سورة الصف , As-Saff, Chapter #61, Verse #6)

Muhammed is the Advocate?

…29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

…70 Then they all said, “Are You then the Son of God?”
So He said to them, “You rightly say that I am.”

…29 But I know Him, for I am from Him, and He sent Me.”

…18 I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”

…Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

 

[Verisimilitude]

Book 030, Number 5836:
Abu Huraira reported many ahadith from Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and one is that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I am most close to Jesus, son of Mary, among the whole of mankind in this worldly life and the next life. They said: Allah’s Messenger how is it? Thereupon he said: Prophets are brothers in faith, having different mothers. Their religion is, however, one and there is no Apostle between us (between I and Jesus Christ).

Most close to Jesus among the whole of mankind? Wow.
On a personal level:
How may wives/slaves did Jeus have? 0 Muhammed? At least 12 adult wives/many slaves. The child bride has been discussed in detail elsewhere.
How many caravans/villages did Jesus rob/war? 0 Muhammed? Too many to count just now.
Did Jeus assassinate those who mocked Him? No. Did Muhammed? Yes.
Did Jesus ever correct or contradict Himself throughout His ministry? No. Muhammed? Yes- multiple times.
Jesus was a healer. Mohammed was not.
Jesus was a martyr. Muhammed caught a cold and died- the poision from the slave girl was 3 years before he died.

Jesus forgave the adulterous woman and many others. Muhammed didn’t.
The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, “I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones.” (Book #56, Hadith #829)

Then Allah’s Apostle gave his order in the case of that woman and her hand was cut off. Afterwards her repentance proved sincere and she got married. (Book #59, Hadith #597)

The Prophet said: “I was shown the hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful.” It was asked, “Do they disbelieve in Allah?” (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. (Book #2, Hadith #28)

Muhammed was nothing at all like Chrsit. What similarities do you see? Any thing substansive or just a line from the koran?

 

[eldon]

Most close to Jesus among the whole of mankind? Wow.

That was Muhammad’s own testimony, yes.

On a personal level:
How may wives/slaves did Jesus have? 0 Muhammed? At least 12 adult wives/many slaves.

King David had just as many wives/concubines as Muhammad, yet Scripture says that David will be raised up to rule over Israel-- so you can’t characterize M. as unrighteous because he had many wives.

Jesus had no wife, David and Muhammad had many: “every man hath his own proper gift of God, one after this manner and another after that”. 1Corinthians 7:7

The child bride has been discussed in detail elsewhere.

Did they mention in that discussion that the Book of Jasher states that Rebecca was only 10 years old when she married Isaac, or was that a typically biased Christian discussion about Aisha?

How many caravans/villages did Jesus rob/war? 0 Muhammed? Too many to count just now.

How many times were the belongings of Jesus and his followers unrightfully confiscated and hauled off to be sold? 0

Muhammad fought his physical battles while he was here the first time, Jesus will fight his physical battles when he returns.

Did Jeus assassinate those who mocked Him? No. Did Muhammed? Yes.

Jesus will assassinate ALL who refuse to accept his reign when he returns-- many more than Muhammad ever even thought about assassinating.

Did Jesus ever correct or contradict Himself throughout His ministry? No. Muhammed? Yes- multiple times.

According to the Gospels, Jesus told his followers to “resist not evil”, but then later told them to carry a sword, but then rebuked one of them for using the sword when they were under attack!

Muhammad was corrected/instructed by Allah several times after he had made a decision, but Muhammad never tried to hide that fact.

Jesus was a healer. Mohammed was not.

Muhammad wasn’t a healer to the extent that Jesus was, nevertheless he did have some miracles, including healing.

Jesus was a martyr. Muhammed caught a cold and died- the poision from the slave girl was 3 years before he died.

Nevertheless, the poison affected Muhammad until the day he died, and may have been the main cause of death, making him a martyr after all.

Jesus forgave the adulterous woman and many others. Muhammed didn’t.
The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, “I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones.” (Book #56, Hadith #829)

There is another hadith of a man who confessed adultery to Muhammad 3 times, yet Muhammad turned away each time so as to have mercy on the man, finally when the man continued to confess his sin, Muhammad had him stoned to death in order to carry out justice and thus cleanse the man’s conscience.

The Prophet said: “I was shown the hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful.” It was asked, “Do they disbelieve in Allah?” (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. (Book #2, Hadith #28)

The majority of the dwellers on earth for all time and at most times throughout history have been women. Why should it come as any suprise that the majority in hell will also be women?

All that means is that there will be at least one more woman in hell than there are men in hell.

Muhammed was nothing at all like Chrsit. What similarities do you see? Any thing substansive or just a line from the koran?

I see that they both delivered what they claimed were Revelations from the Most High and that they have been followed by billions of people since then. Is that substantive enough for you?

 

[eldon]

That is quite a bold and unqualified statement. I have had this tired debate before with Muslims. If you want to explore Scripture to that detail I’m all for it, but the same goes for The Qur’an. But then I’ve had that tired debate too. :banghead:

How far a cry?

Whose revelation- Muhammeds?

”

Yes, trinitarianism is impossible according to the Bible and Quran, its a FAR cry from the only true God that Jesus preached AND a contradiction of the Revelation given to Muhammad as well.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Yes, trinitarianism is impossible according to the Bible

well not in my Bible (and of course the Koran is irrelevant not being from God)
do you actually understand the doctrine of the Trinity eldon?