Mercy in Islam

[Verisimilitude]

Neither the Quran nor the gospels indicate that Jesus ever sinned, that is why I say he had ONLY a holy nature.

You can’t just dismiss the human nature of Jesus. He ate, drank, slept, grew tired…

A better question is Why do you consider it “God cheapening the sacrifice” by fulfilling His Word in Leviticus 16?

That passage foreshadows the Atonement Jesus (as) made for Israel and stipulates that the Atonement is made via the Scapegoat set free, not sacrificed.

A Believer’s only option is either to accept that Jesus (as) somehow went free from the sacrifice to make the Atonement OR reckon that somehow someone else (Judas or Barabbas) made the Atonement by being set free. I believe Jesus alone made the Atonement in fulfillment of Leviticus 16.

No, the question goes unanswered again, and you still miss the point. When I order a prime rib at a resturant I expect prime rib, not chuck steak. Maybe you do not understand the concept of sacrifice.

When Muhammad (saws) said Neither believe the People of the book nor disbelieve them, but say we believe in that which was revealed to you AND in that which was revealed to us, and our Lord and your Lord are the same , Muslims in general were spared from the detailed task of trying to figure out what parts of the OT & NT are true and what parts are corrupted.

Did Muhammed say that or did Allah? And that is just down right ignorant. You can’t believe both, and to be “spared” as you say is remaining blind. The truth of it is observable and determinate. The Koran offers nothing substantive to the discussion, and I would never use it to bolster the claims of either the OT or NT. If it repeats anything correctly from the earlier books it is no marvelous feat. When it contradicts the earlier books it is just plain false.

However, certain Muslims like me, who were People of the Book BEFORE we became Muslims, have the insight and duty to guide other People of the Book to Islam, using the OT, NT, and Quran.

Beware of false prophets that they may deceive even the elect! I suggest you come back home.

If you’ve studied the seeming contradictions between the OT and NT, then you are prepared to resolve the seeming contradictions between the Quran and Bible.

These seeming contradictions are answered in the name of Christ only because He fulfills them. It is the only thing that can make them answerable which signifies the uniqueness of of both the NT and Chrsit Himself. The Quranic contradictions fail at the same measure by not recognizing the answer. The OT believers (Jews) think the first coming is yet to take place, Qur’an belkievers think they capped the prophetic age. It’s no surprise is it that Christians know both to be inaccurate.

The NT calls the disciples of Jesus “ignorant and unlearned men”, so should you reject their words the same way you reject Muhammad?

Provide the reference because I would suggest the context of your accusation is with respect to how stubborn they were to believe Him. It also calls them cowards for running away when He was arrested, and denying they even knew Him. It’s clear that the disciples were not unlearned as they could read and write, taught in the Temple and synagogues. They were also knowledgeable about their own history to which Mohammed was woefully deficient in, evident by the way in which he mixed up the stories in the Koran. He has the audacity to then call the earlier stories as false and his own as accurate. Hubris to a high degree.

It is not for us to pick and choose whom the Most High uses to send His Revelations to mankind, our duty is to submit to His Revelation, even when He chooses to raise up children unto Abraham out from among the stone idols of Arabia.

It is our duty to discern who is true and who is false. Muhammed is false. God did not raise up a people from stone idols in Arabia, God fulfilled the promise to Abraham by making his seed many nations to which the children of Arabia are counted. Only Muhammed raised one idol that was not God, above the others and called it God. That should be as offensive to you as it is to me.

That is the natural (carnal) result of centuries of bickering between Muslims and Christians, but Muslims are not supposed to elevate one Prophet over another.

Funny, I disagree. Muhammed made himself to be that way by the very nature of the first pillar. Muhammed had no right or authority to speak for God.

 

[Keikiolu]

As for the original point in this thread, that because “Allâh leads astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills” there is no Mercy in Islam…

Well, does that mean there is also no Mercy in Christianity because 2Thessalonians 2:11,12 says “And for this cause, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the Truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” ?

No, of course, the Most High is extremely Merciful. It’s just that He will not continually extend His Mercy to those who deny His signs in order to persist in their unbelief. He will eventually lead such people astray by sending them strong delusion and that fact is proclaimed in all His revelations to mankind.

God NEVER stops offering His grace so as to be saved. He NEVER leads people astray, but will allow Satan to do his (Satan’s) job on those who refuse to accept His (God’s) grace.

As the commentary in isbn 1-85182-909-1 states:

“…God sends upon them a strong delusion…” : Quite often this type of expression is used in the Bible attributing to God things which He simply permits.God wants everyone to be saved and never encourages anyone to do evil; however out of respect for man’s freedom, He does allow peole who persist in evildoing to damn themselves. See note on Rom 1:24-32.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[eldon]

That is a gross misinterpretation of Leviticus 16. The goat which is sacrificed is the sin offering to God. As all sacrifices, it must be without blemish. Christ is the only man who could fulfill this. The goat which is set free is the hope that sin will be carried out of the community for the coming year. As all sacrifices, it must be without blemish. Christ is the only man who could fulfill this.

Christ is both the sacrifice and the scapegoat. His pure unblemished blood makes the perfect sin offering to God. In His resurrection, He carries sin away from the people removing its permanent effects from us.

In Leviticus 16, the sacrificed goat was to make an atonement for the holy place, the tabernacle, and the altar. But the goat set free made Atonement for the people.

In Leviticus 16, the scapegoat is set free immediately after the first goat is slain, whereas the resurrection scenario happened 3 days later. I suggest that the human spirit of Jesus was set free when the body of sin was slain and that Jesus himself (the Word) was IN heaven (John 3:13) entirely when that happened.

A believers only option is not to deny the plain truth of history. Even secular historians agree that the man Jesus Christ was crucified. It is one of the best attested facts in history. In faith, I believe that after His death on the Cross, He resurrected and conquered sin, thereby carrying it into a distant uninhabited land.

The Quran also agrees that Jesus appeared to be crucified. There was nothing that anyone present could discern which happened different from the appearance. However both the Bible and Quran state that Jesus’ persona was changed, the Bible going so far as to say “God made him to BE sin for us”.

There are not “seeming contradictions” between the Bible and the Quran. There is outright contradiction. The Quran claims that Abraham intended to sacrifice Ishmael. The Quran claims that Abraham built the Kaaba. The Quran claims that Adam built the Kaaba. All in contradiction to the Bible.

The Quran says only that Abraham intended to sacrifice his son, without naming which son. Muslims believe it was Ishmael based on a later reference to Isaac in that chapter.

Of course the Bible says nothing about the Kaaba, so there is no contradiction with the Quran’s explanation that Abraham and Ishmael (not Adam) raised the foundations of the House (2:127).

 

[Montalban]

In Leviticus 16, the sacrificed goat was to make an atonement for the holy place, the tabernacle, and the altar. But the goat set free made Atonement for the people.

In Leviticus 16, the scapegoat is set free immediately after the first goat is slain, whereas the resurrection scenario happened 3 days later. I suggest that the human spirit of Jesus was set free when the body of sin was slain and that Jesus himself (the Word) was IN heaven (John 3:13) entirely when that happened.

You seem to mix Jesus up with the scapegoat -which escapes, instead of the sacrificed goat, which doesn’t.

 

[eldon]

When Muhammad (saws) said Neither believe the People of the book nor disbelieve them, but say we believe in that which was revealed to you AND in that which was revealed to us, and our Lord and your Lord are the same , Muslims in general were spared from the detailed task of trying to figure out what parts of the OT & NT are true and what parts are corrupted.

Whereas the people of the book so often tell you different from what the Book would tell you, you do BEST to point out that you believe in what was revealed to them without accepting the particulars of what they have to say.

Provide the reference because I would suggest the context of your accusation is with respect to how stubborn they were to believe Him.

Acts 4:13: Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

It is our duty to discern who is true and who is false.

It is our duty to discern according to what is written: Muhammad confessed that Jesus was Messiah come in the flesh, therefore Muhammad was OF God.

 

[Montalban]

It is our duty to discern according to what is written: Muhammad confessed that Jesus was Messiah come in the flesh, therefore Muhammad was OF God.

But he then denied the Messiah’s message!

 

[Montalban]

In debates with Moslems the topics are always moved.

The OP was about mercy in Islam, now we’re here defending the Bible.

 

[Booklover]

Verisimilitude;2133797:

It is our duty to discern according to what is written: Muhammad confessed that Jesus was Messiah come in the flesh, therefore Muhammad was OF God.

You call that proof! Even demons knew that Jesus was the holy one from God, and they’re most certainly not from God!

Vickie

 

[eliasaph99]

Verisimilitude;2133797:

Whereas the people of the book so often tell you different from what the Book would tell you, you do BEST to point out that you believe in what was revealed to them

without accepting the particulars of what they have to say.

Acts 4:13: Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

It is our duty to discern according to what is written: Muhammad confessed that Jesus was Messiah come in the flesh, therefore Muhammad was OF God.

That in itself is a contradiction. The word Messiah means savior. Plainly, if Christ was the savior, there is no need of Mohammed and his message.

 

[eliasaph99]

In Leviticus 16, the sacrificed goat was to make an atonement for the holy place, the tabernacle, and the altar. But the goat set free made Atonement for the people.

In Leviticus 16, the scapegoat is set free immediately after the first goat is slain, whereas the resurrection scenario happened 3 days later. I suggest that the human spirit of Jesus was set free when the body of sin was slain and that Jesus himself (the Word) was IN heaven (John 3:13) entirely when that happened.

The Quran also agrees that Jesus appeared to be crucified. There was nothing that anyone present could discern which happened different from the appearance. However both the Bible and Quran state that Jesus’ persona was changed, the Bible going so far as to say “God made him to BE sin for us”.

The Quran says only that Abraham intended to sacrifice his son, without naming which son. Muslims believe it was Ishmael based on a later reference to Isaac in that chapter.

Of course the Bible says nothing about the Kaaba, so there is no contradiction with the Quran’s explanation that Abraham and Ishmael (not Adam) raised the foundations of the House (2:127).

Seeing as how Jesus was a man and not a goat, your insistence on strict adherence to the scenario in Leviticus is a little ridiculous. The sacrifices detailed in the OT are a shadow of the sacrifice of Christ. They are not an exact mimic in any way.

The Bible does not state in any way that it “appears” that Christ was crucified. The Gospels state explicitly that Jesus Christ was crucified.

John 19:16-18 Then therefore he delivered him to them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him forth. And bearing his own cross, he went forth to that place which is called Calvary, but in Hebrew Golgotha. Where they crucified him, and with him two others, one on each side, and Jesus in the midst.

Nice obfuscation about the contents of the Quran. You’re technically correct, the Quran doesn’t use the name Ishmael when it gives the account of the sacrifice. However, Muslim scholars all agree that the Quran is teaching that the child is Ishmael, not Isaac.

The contradiction to the Bible in the recording of who built the Kaaba is simple to a thinking person. The Kaaba is nowhere near any of the lands where Abraham was. It is hundreds of miles away and Abraham never went there. Neither did Adam. But the really amazing thing is that Islam claims that both Adam and Abraham built the Kaaba. I’ll retract my statement that its in the Quran, but is in the Hadith.

Tabari 1:216 says that Allah created the Ka’aba before he created the world.

Tabari 1:293 says that Allah and Adam built the Ka’aba together.

Tabari 1:294 says that Adam and an angel built the Ka’aba together.

Tabari 1:335 says that Seth built the Ka’aba.

And finally, the Quran says that Abraham built the Ka’aba:

Quran 22:26 When We chose the site of the House for Abraham (We said "Associate no one with Me, and clean My House for those who will circumambulate it, stand (in reverence), and bow in homage.

In Tabari 11:70 it is claimed that Abraham built the Original Ka’aba, foundations and all. Funny seeing as how it was already built at least twice before that.

 

[Jayda]

I went to the ummah and to my surprise they were very nasty people!

hola,

i thought the people in the anonymous board very nice and helpful… but when i joined i saw a section called “comparative religion” and it was insulting, disrespectful and sometimes just mean… i have basically given up trying to ask muslims about islam, my last two experiences were very negative… the first actually had conversations about how mexicans were ‘nazi gangs’ on top of all of the abuse that was leveled against the holy Church…

i think it is best to ask muslims personally face to face, on the internet everybody abandons their manners… but my interest in understanding islam is greatly diminished after these experiences… i think ive seen enough

Dominus Vobiscum

 

[Verisimilitude]

Whereas the people of the book so often tell you different from what the Book would tell you, you do BEST to point out that you believe in what was revealed to them without accepting the particulars of what they have to say.

Complete mindless drivel. It would be one thing to claim a Cliff Notes type understanding of what was revealed to the People of the Book, but to accept it without accepting the particulars is willfull ignorance.

Acts 4:13: Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

There is a significant difference between the ignorance of the Apostles and that of Muhammed. The first of which is as stated in the passage, they had been with Jesus indicating they had first hand knowledge about what they spoke about with authority, unlike Muhammed who had no first hand knowledge about anything and spoke without such authority.

Why do you use the particulars you admitted above you don’t need, and say are often wrong because they contradict the Qur’an? Either accept it in full, or reject it all. You could not use a known book with errors in a court of law unless you could identify all that was false, and all that was true with support. Ah, but you are excused from such detail. I keep forgetting you have so many outs to stay ignorant.

It is our duty to discern according to what is written: Muhammad confessed that Jesus was Messiah come in the flesh, therefore Muhammad was OF God.

**But you don’t discern what is written. **You admit it. I said before, you can’t have it both ways. Either the NT is faulty and can’t be trusted- (though the particulars don’t matter to Islam, just the fact that it exists, right?); or the Qur’an that admits some things in agreement with it though the rest is false. Trying to describe your circular illogic is difficult. How can you believe yourself?

Islam has no authority or right to use any portion of the OT or NT to justify the validity of the Qur’an. NONE. I take great offense to Muslims who do that because they only have the word of an illiterate murderer, theif, and lying opportunist that said what came before has been corrupted because he could not read it for himslelf to be sure. Muhammed was OF God as much as you or I are of God. He was no messenger or prophet. He has no justified claim. The never self-identified spirit that was speaking to him was not Gabriel.

You may pray to the same God as I only by default. But for Islam to twist and modify the words that came before, reject them in whole as untrustworthy, but cite them in part where they agree with your book, and then claim a manuscript that had been copied on bone fragments, wood, and skins many years after the illiterate uttered them- combined them in a book from longest to shortest verses, endlessly repetative mantras that are often out of context and contradict each other, do little more than say the names of the past prophets, that details unjust battles and “justified” killing of Jews and others…the perception you have of God is false.

What on earth are you thinking? Where is the mercy? Is it in the 100+ Quranic verses that call for fighting and war, or is it referenced by the books that came before that you do not need to know the details of? Is mercy found in mimicing the ways of Muhammed? The first 1000 years of Islam followed his ways and blood and death and subjugation are his legacy. Just ask the many Arab Jews who were indigenous to Arabia- opps, can’t they have all been either killed, forced to convert, or forced to flee. How about the Coypts in Egypt, or the Christians and Jews in Lebanon? Turkey has many groups that would like some redress from Islam but since Islam is the rle of law, they can’t.

If mercy in Islam is found in charity, love, and brotherhood, where are the voices and organizations to say it and perform it? Do Muslim charities give to non-Muslims? Why is the Muslim world only vocal at a perceived Muslim injustice over cartoons or papal statements? Where, I ask you is the mercy of Islam? Is it behind the gentile smile they hold when they tell me my faith is false and misguided, or in the sword they hold when I call their prophet false? How well would I fair in any Muslim nation like Pakistan, Iran, Arabia…if I said such things there? It (mercy) is all one way- toward Islam, not from it.

Don’t tell me how merciful Islam is, put it into action if it is true. Start as an individual, but don’t forget to tell the other billion+ Muslims around the world. Start in Iraq and Iran to remind them how merciful Muhammed and Islam is. Good luck.

 

[Verisimilitude]

i think it is best to ask muslims personally face to face, on the internet everybody abandons their manners… but my interest in understanding islam is greatly diminished after these experiences… i think ive seen enough

Dominus Vobiscum

If they will answer directly I would be surprised. When faced with difficult questions they often respond “Only Allah knows”.

Try reading:
A very fair respectfull book on Muhammed is:The Life and Times of Muhammed by Sir John Glubb.

Another is Jesus and Muhammed by Mark A Gabriel. He was an Islamic scholar who converted.

Each of those would help you understand the Qur’an better which you should also read.

Then if you want a more biased, but fully supported book, read : The Myth of Islamic Tolerance by Robert Spencer. It details historical Islamic dhimmitude and a lot of UN positions, and speeches by well respected people with intimate knowledge.

 

[Keikiolu]

In debates with Moslems the topics are always moved.

The OP was about mercy in Islam, now we’re here defending the Bible.

That’s the moslem way.

The lesser “god” allah is a merciless god.

And his adherents are merciless in their avoidance tactics…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Jayda]

That’s the moslem way.

The lesser “god” allah is a merciless god.

And his adherents are merciless in their avoidance tactics…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

hola…

please do not say “lesser god” the catechism and the dogmatic constitution say they worship the same God.

Dominus Vobiscum

 

[eldon]

Originally Posted by eldon
Whereas the people of the book so often tell you different from what the Book would tell you, you do BEST to point out that you believe in what was revealed to them without accepting the particulars of what they have to say.

Complete mindless drivel. It would be one thing to claim a Cliff Notes type understanding of what was revealed to the People of the Book, but to accept it without accepting the particulars is willfull ignorance.

Let me try again to explain: Muhammad (saws) told us to neither believe nor disbelieve the people of the book because if you believe them you may be believing in something that they added to or altered from the book and if you disbelieve them you may be disbelieving in something that is truth from the book. Rather we are to say, we believe in what was revealed to you (though not necessarilly with what you say about what was revealed).

Thus Muhammad’s instruction was not “mindless drivel” but was a warning of the necessity of discerning between Revealed Truth versus people’s traditions and interpolations of those Revelations.

Any necessary particulars of the former Revelations are in the Quran, so that Muslims in general don’t need to go digging through the Bible or asking Jews and Christians for instruction as to the practice of our faith.

Muhammed who had no first hand knowledge about anything and spoke without such authority.

If Muhammad had so little authority to speak, then WHY did his message have such sweeping success?

You need to remember Gamaliel’s advice from the book of Acts 5:38 “…if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: but if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.”

Christians have been fighting against Islam (and against God) for over 14 centuries now and Islam has only grown throughout the earth since that time.

… Muhammed was OF God as much as you or I are of God. He was no messenger or prophet. He has no justified claim. The never self-identified spirit that was speaking to him was not Gabriel.

Again, if he was no messenger of God, how did/does his message have such great success?

As for Gabriel, he identified himself by name as Muhammad was travelling home from the Cave.

…a manuscript that had been copied on bone fragments, wood, and skins many years after the illiterate uttered them …that details unjust battles and “justified” killing of Jews and others…the perception you have of God is false.

You need to take a more critical look at the contents of the Bible before you denigrate and reject the Quran !

Have you forgotten Joshua’s marching orders in Canaan “kill everything that has breath” ? Have you forgotten such gems as Psalm 137:9 “Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones” ? The Most High has consistently shown forth His wrath against rebelling unbelievers AND had His people to execute His wrath at times throughout history.

What on earth are you thinking? Where is the mercy?
…Where, I ask you is the mercy of Islam? …

Mercy in Islam is found in the Quran and is offered to all men thereby, yet the consequence of rejecting the Mercy of the Most High is also there, as well as in all previous Revelations. We treasure the Mercy Allah has offered to us and we commend to all men that blessed hope, realizing that “if Allah punished men as they deserved He would not leave upon earth so much as an ant”.

What you really need to consider, Verisimilitude, is how Jesus (as) feels about the distortions your faith has made about him: proclaiming him as God though he said that the Father is the only true God, his God and your God, making an idol out of the cross, and otherwise exalting traditions over the Word.

Muhammad and Islam were sent as a Mercy from the Most High for mankind, yet the result of rejecting and denigrating that Mercy is only Wrath, which Jesus himself will execute in large part.

I don’t believe you’ve been nearly as considerate and fair minded towards Islam as Jesus would have you to be: you seem to have forgotten that he justly proclaimed that the kingdom of God can be taken away from one people and given to another who will bring forth the fruits thereof.

Your one-sided slurs against Islam fail to explain why millions of people have found hope and abide in the Message of Muhammad, while a great part of your own civilization has fallen away from the Message of Jesus.

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful, I pray you and all here will receive what is needful from what I’ve written.

 

[pedja]

Muhammad and Islam were sent as a Mercy from the Most High for mankind, yet the result of rejecting and denigrating that Mercy is only Wrath, which Jesus himself will execute in large part.

Yea, I have experienced that mercy from 1992-1995 in Bosnia where members of my family were killed in the name of merciful Allah. And those 3 Christians in Turkey a few days ago experienced Allahs mercy as well.

Your one-sided slurs against Islam fail to explain why millions of people have found hope and abide in the Message of Muhammad, while a great part of your own civilization has fallen away from the Message of Jesus.

Jesus is God and Saviour and there is NO other name under which mankind can be saved. I have nothing against any people believing in whatever religions, Jesus died for all and it`s our choice to be saved or not, but IMO the religion of Islam is totally unnecessary.

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful, I pray you and all here will receive what is needful from what I’ve written.

You pray to your God, I`ll keep on praying to mine.

 

[dolphinlove]

Eldon,

Islam managed to spread like it has cause of conqueuring countries and places. Its message was spread by the sword. If it was spread ‘peacefully’, i doubt the message would have left mecca.

And i think Jesus would be more horrified that he was named as a mere prophet rather than the son of God in Islam.
There is no other prophet after Jesus, the SON of God, which is all I need as proof enough that Mohammed is no prophet.

And furthermore, Jesus was born as a miracle, performed miracles and his death was done out of love for us. Now I dont see Mohammed doing anything like that for us!

 

[Verisimilitude]

Let me try again to explain: Muhammad (saws) told us to neither believe nor disbelieve the people of the book because if you believe them you may be believing in something that they added to or altered from the book and if you disbelieve them you may be disbelieving in something that is truth from the book. Rather we are to say, we believe in what was revealed to you (though not necessarilly with what you say about what was revealed).

Is this twisted logic restricted to Islam?

Thus Muhammad’s instruction was not “mindless drivel” but was a warning of the necessity of discerning between Revealed Truth versus people’s traditions and interpolations of those Revelations.

Coming from a man who obviously confused the many biblical stories he got wrong as written in the Koran- and yes, is mindless drivel.

Any necessary particulars of the former Revelations are in the Quran, so that Muslims in general don’t need to go digging through the Bible or asking Jews and Christians for instruction as to the practice of our faith.

True, they are just made up.

If Muhammad had so little authority to speak, then WHY did his message have such sweeping success?

Good question. 1.) Islam met no real religious opposition from the polythesitc Arabs. Pre-Islamic Mekka was and Kaaba was a commercial center rather than a religious one. 2.) Until Muhammed slinked over to Madina begging for protection after about 13 years and a handfull of converts, it was a failed religion. 3.) He won support by feeding his new followers by raiding caravans. and Jewish settlements- in short it became profitable to be Muslim. 4.) He was a chrasmatic individual that destroyed the proud Arab tribal culture by the strength of a new type of monothesitic faith. In short, he made a new type of Arab. 5.) There is just enough flavor of truth to God to attract our inherant nature to seek God out.

And honestly it wasn’t a success in the sense you mean. Look at how Islam spread after Muhammed died. It was not by asking people nicely. Look up the word dhimmi. To deny that is to deny accepted history.

You need to remember Gamaliel’s advice from the book of Acts 5:38 “…if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: but if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.”

You give Satan too little credit.

Christians have been fighting against Islam (and against God) for over 14 centuries now and Islam has only grown throughout the earth since that time.

Space here is too short to give you a history lesson. Have you looked up dhimmi yet?

Again, if he was no messenger of God, how did/does his message have such great success?

By fear and default. Fear from the vanquished, default by the next generation being born into it, and then forbidden and indoctrinated not to question it.

As for Gabriel, he identified himself by name as Muhammad was travelling home from the Cave.

Before or after Muhammed was going to throuw himself off the mountain and kill himslef? He didn’t mention that to Kadisha (sp), and it was her Christian uncle that said he must be a prophet. Please quote the verse.

You need to take a more critical look at the contents of the Bible before you denigrate and reject the Quran !

I think I have a fair understnding of both. What have I said that is factually wrong?

Have you forgotten Joshua’s marching orders in Canaan “kill everything that has breath” ? Have you forgotten such gems as Psalm 137:9 “Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones” ? The Most High has consistently shown forth His wrath against rebelling unbelievers AND had His people to execute His wrath at times throughout history.

Context. Ask the Jews why God didn’t want slaves or anything from those that were in the land before them. The reason as I understand it is the exact opposite to why Islam would not kill all that lives, but rather subjugate them.

 

[Verisimilitude]

eldon:

Mercy in Islam is found in the Quran and is offered to all men thereby, yet the consequence of rejecting the Mercy of the Most High is also there, as well as in all previous Revelations. We treasure the Mercy Allah has offered to us and we commend to all men that blessed hope, realizing that “if Allah punished men as they deserved He would not leave upon earth so much as an ant”.

Only fear is found in the Koran. The mercy described therein is conditional.

What you really need to consider, Verisimilitude, is how Jesus (as) feels about the distortions your faith has made about him: proclaiming him as God though he said that the Father is the only true God, his God and your God, making an idol out of the cross, and otherwise exalting traditions over the Word.

It is clear you do not understand Catholicism. It is becasue I consider such things as to why I have engaged in this debate.

Muhammad and Islam were sent as a Mercy from the Most High for mankind, yet the result of rejecting and denigrating that Mercy is only Wrath, which Jesus himself will execute in large part.

See, that is exactly the point and exposes the lie. Do I need to quote the verses where Christ said He left us peace, and Muhammed said fighting in the name of God is good for you if you but knew?

I don’t believe you’ve been nearly as considerate and fair minded towards Islam as Jesus would have you to be: you seem to have forgotten that he justly proclaimed that the kingdom of God can be taken away from one people and given to another who will bring forth the fruits thereof.

He was speaking speciffically of the Choosen People- the Jews. Christ offered it first to the Jews, and then offered it to the world when the Jews did not accept the invitation to the feast. Muhammed is trying to take the Bridegrooms seat.

Long ago I believed the conventional wisdom that Jews, Christians, and Muslims believed in the same God. My desire to know God more fully lead me to study those who spoke in the name of God, and the books that contain those words. Compare the life of Muhammed to any other OT or MT figure. Mohammad is untrustworthy.

Your one-sided slurs against Islam fail to explain why millions of people have found hope and abide in the Message of Muhammad, while a great part of your own civilization has fallen away from the Message of Jesus.

Did you look up the word dhimmi yet?

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful, I pray you and all here will receive what is needful from what I’ve written.

Dhimmitude is the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims, primarily Jews and Christians. Dhimmis, “protected people,” are free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but are made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur’an’s command that they “feel themselves subdued” (Sura 9:29). This denial of equality of rights and dignity remains part of the Sharia, and, as such, is part of the law that global jihadists are laboring to impose everywhere, ultimately on the entire human race.

The dhimmi attitude of chastened subservience has entered into Western academic study of Islam, and from there into journalism, textbooks, and the popular discourse. One must not point out the depredations of jihad and dhimmitude; to do so would offend the multiculturalist ethos that prevails everywhere today…