Mercy in Islam

[eldon]

I wonder if all these new members are sock puppets who try and back up the sock masters view???

I’m here, Jedda, because you posted over at Ummah.com’s Comparative Religion forum, using the name “WhoKnows”.

As for sock puppets, now would be a good time for you and the rest of the practicing Catholics here to become faithful representatives of the Biblical Jesus: start calling the Father “the ONLY True God” since Jesus identified Him as “my God and YOUR God”.

Otherwise, you can’t call yourself his.

 

[jack_hawkins]

As for the original point in this thread, that because “Allâh leads astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills” there is no Mercy in Islam…

Well, does that mean there is also no Mercy in Christianity because 2Thessalonians 2:11,12 says “And for this cause, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the Truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” ?

No, of course, the Most High is extremely Merciful. It’s just that He will not continually extend His Mercy to those who deny His signs in order to persist in their unbelief. He will eventually lead such people astray by sending them strong delusion and that fact is proclaimed in all His revelations to mankind.

Reinforcements? Rent-a-mob from ummah.com or just hamba2han’s sock puppets?
I see you haven’t quoted the passage in its entirety for your own purposes, as then we would see that this passage is like the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart, talking about people who have rejected the truth already. It is not talking about deliberately deceiving people so that they are damned.
Next time quote things properly if you want to make a point…

 

[jack_hawkins]

I’m here, Jedda, because you posted over at Ummah.com’s Comparative Religion forum, using the name “WhoKnows”.

As for sock puppets, now would be a good time for you and the rest of the practicing Catholics here to become faithful representatives of the Biblical Jesus: start calling the Father “the ONLY True God” since Jesus identified Him as “my God and YOUR God”.

Otherwise, you can’t call yourself his.

So why do you accept the Bible when it suits you, but reject it as hopelessly corrupt on other occasions?
You have heard of the Trinity?
You have read the Gospel of John?
The Bible says to reject another gospel, even if it were brought by an angel. “Mohammed” claimed to have aother gospel brought by an angel. We know this came from Satan, who is also known as Allah by Muslims. Satan is the father of lies, Allah is the chief of deceivers. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Allah is Satan.

 

[jack_hawkins]

2 natures in one person?
You mean you believe that Jesus was both holy AND unholy at the same time?

no, that’s clearly not what was said

You don’t believe that a change was made in his persona when he was “made to be sin” ?

you need to read the Bible more thoroughly and without prejudice to understand the nature of his substitutive atonement

Surely you don’t mean that you think Jesus (as) was God ?!!
He himself addressed the Father as “the ONLY true God” and specified that the Father is “my God and YOUR God” (John 17:3, 20:17

surely we do
Jesus proclaimed this, so we ought not to contradict him

You ought not to contradict Jesus with your own personal interpretations.

you mean the interpretation of the church he founded? which the gates of hell would not prevail against?
not even the beast which represents among other things Islam?

 

[eldon]

responses to Jack:

1. 2Thessalonians 2:11,12 is exactly like the deception that Allah sends to those who reject faith.
2. Trinitarianism is an extra-biblical doctrine in variance against what Jesus taught and Muhammad brought no other gospel but rather affirmed that the gospel Jesus preached was truth.
3. if you really want to understand the Bible’s teachings on Atonement you need to study Leviticus 16, which specifies that the Scapegoat is the one that made Atonement for Israel, not the goat that was slain. If Jesus made Atonement then he had to fulfill the role of the scapegoat, according to the Law of which Jesus said it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away before one tittle of the Law should fail.

(no matter your claim of church infallibility, the traditions of men make the word of God of none effect, according to Jesus)

 

[jack_hawkins]

responses to Jack:

1. 2Thessalonians 2:11,12 is exactly like the deception that Allah sends to those who reject faith

you haven’t listened to a word have you? go and read the passage yourself, not just the two verses you have quoted

1. Trinitarianism is an extra-biblical doctrine in variance against what Jesus taught and Muhammad brought no other gospel but rather affirmed that the gospel Jesus preached was truth

I think you need to do some more research about the trinity
“Mohammed” brought another gospel. he certainly didn’t affirm the gospel Jesus brought at all

1. if you really want to understand the Bible’s teachings on Atonement you need to study Leviticus 16, which specifies that the Scapegoat is the one that made Atonement for Israel, not the goat that was slain. If Jesus made Atonement then he had to fulfill the role of the scapegoat, according to the Law of which Jesus said it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away before one tittle of the Law should fail.
   (no matter your claim of church infallibility, the traditions of men make the word of God of none effect, according to Jesus)

I’m not quite sure what point you’re trying to make about the Judas Goat. Please clarify. Ypu’ve put yourself in an interesting position, explaining a book which you claim is hopelessly to Christians.
“traditions of men” - what like the traditions of Islam you mean???
they certainly completely erode the word of God

 

[eldon]

Jack, your naysayings don’t amount to a decent argument in any of the points you’re trying to make.

I’ve read 2Thessalonians and the rest of the bible many times, the deception God sends according to that verse is identical to the deception Allah sends on persisting unbelievers according to the Quran.

Neither the word nor the concept of trinitarianism is in the bible and that doctrine is contradicted by Jesus’ teaching that the Father is the ONLY true God.

The role of the Scapegoat (not any Judas goat which is entirely another consideration) is what Jesus had to fulfill in order to make the Atonement for Israel. Read Leviticus 16.

Catholic tradition is no better than any other tradition of men which Jesus rebuked when he was here on earth. “your traditions make void the word of God”.

 

[Verisimilitude]

No, the Quran does not say that someone else was crucified in Jesus’ stead, despite that implication being inserted in several English translations by various translators.

There are several conflicting theories among Muslims as to who exactly was crucified… but NONE of these theories is specified as reality by the Quran text.

There is no conflicting theory among Catholics. Jesus was crucified.

What the Quran DOES specify is this

According to a strict Arabic understanding 4:157 says:

*‘wal[a]kin shubbiha lahum’ *(but instead it was made to appear to them as such)…Feehi means in WHO he was, in his identity, in his persona.

A symantic game that obfuscates. More simply put the individual, Jesus, was convicted and executed for all to see. There are four accepted accounts that provide accurate detail. Why do you dismiss them?

The New Testament ALSO indicates a change of persona in the person who was crucified:

John 1:14 teaches that “the Word was made flesh”.

Keep in mind the Word was with God in the begining.

However, some New Testament verses “stand out like a sore thumb” in describing what was slain on the cross, in opposition to the Word-made-flesh PURE nature of Yahshua, these verses describe a definite change in identity that took place on or before the cross :

2Corinthians 5:21 “God made Yahshua to be SIN”

I assume Muslims also know the definition of a sacrifice:
3 a : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else
m-w.com/dictionary/sacrifice

Death was being destroyed for our sake which is the Good News. SIN is death. God is Life. This was the purpose of His sacrifice. Only the flesh was afflicted with SIN and only God could defeat it for us so that we may come to Life.

(If Allah made Jesus to BE sin, as the Bible says, then it was not the holy prophet Jesus who died on the cross, it was the body of sin.)

1 : an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially : the killing of a victim on an altar (in this case the cross)

Romans 6:6 “our old man is crucified with, that the body (slave) of sin might be destroyed”

Colossians 2:14 ~“the writ (legal document) of our transgressions against the Law was nailed to the cross”~

Ephesians 2:16 “enmity to the law was slain on the cross”

Romans 8:3 “the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh”

All of those verses indicate that it was NOT the Word made flesh that died on the cross, but something else entirely: sin, enmity, transgression against the Word.

Would God cheat us? Offer the perfect sacrifce and then lessen it’s worth by replacing it at the last minute? The Qur’an describes a slight of hand switch by God. The Qur’an claims Allah is all powerful, most mighty…even Satan knows that. God is, if nothing else trustworthy. God made the sacrifice Himself, don’t you understand that?

Thus the Quran is proven accurate in its minute commentary on the crucifixion: it appeared that the Jews crucified Jesus, but there was a change in his persona which they failed to discern.

You are correct! (The Koran however is still false because the Romans crucified Jesus.) It was something else entirely. Both SIN and Jesus died on the cross. Isn’t God amazing! You fail to discern it’s meaning. Jesus, God, was guilty of SIN. But Jesus raised himself up, and through Him we can come to life.

Think of it this way. Your friend runs into your house and says he stole a bike. The police are after him and he wants you to hide him so he won’t be arrested. The police with a witness comes to your door. The witness says it you who stole the bike, the police arrest you, and fine you $50. You know your friend is poor so you admit your guilt and pay the fine for him since you can afford it. To the Judge you are guilty. Ooops, God is the Judge.

Likewise, anyone else who fails to discern that change is liable to end up calling one or another of Allah’s Revelations a lie. Be careful, believers, that you receive the Love of the Truth so as not to fall into strong delusion.

The insidiousness of the Qur’an is such that it calls the Truth a lie. The delusion started with an illerate man influence by a spirit, not God 1400 years ago.

Only God could do something about SIN, and only Man is guilty of it. First, He has the ability to forgive SIN. Second, He showed us by example how we can live without sin to lessen our guilt. Lastly, He told us we can ask Him for help, and He promises to give it.

Try it.

 

[eliasaph99]

You are certainly grossly misinformed. Where did you find such a wretched opinion, and why did you follow it?

Exactly which part do you believe him to be misinformed about?

The Quran does deny the crucifixion. In fact, here it is from Surah 4:157-158:

And for saying: “We killed the Christ, Jesus, son of Mary, who was an apostle of God;” but they neither killed nor crucified him, though it so appeared to them. Those who disagree in the matter are only lost in doubt. They have no knowledge about it other than conjecture, for surely they did not kill him, But God raised him up (in position) and closer to Himself; and God is all-mighty and all-wise.

Allah repeatedly states that he leads people astray and deceives them in the Quran.

From Sura 74:31:

That is how God leads whosoever He will astray, and guides whosoever He will.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Jack, your naysayings don’t amount to a decent argument in any of the points you’re trying to make.

I’ve read 2Thessalonians and the rest of the bible many times, the deception God sends according to that verse is identical to the deception Allah sends on persisting unbelievers according to the Quran.

Neither the word nor the concept of trinitarianism is in the bible and that doctrine is contradicted by Jesus’ teaching that the Father is the ONLY true God.

The role of the Scapegoat (not any Judas goat which is entirely another consideration) is what Jesus had to fulfill in order to make the Atonement for Israel. Read Leviticus 16.

Catholic tradition is no better than any other tradition of men which Jesus rebuked when he was here on earth. “your traditions make void the word of God”.

And you have still haven’t answered my point - and if you had really read that passage you wouldn’t be selectively quoting (unless you are using the permissible lie)
your understanding of the OT is deficient, otherwise you would realise there is much more in the OT about Jesus than Leviticus 16! you just don’t understand the hermeneutics of the Bible
you cannot apply the principles used for reading the Koran, which is on a different level altogether
as for saying Jesus rebuked Catholic tradition, you show great ignorance
you haven’t responded properly to my points about another gospel which show clearly that “Muhammad” was listening to a messenger from Satan
again with regards to the Trinity you need to do some research before shooting off

 

[eliasaph99]

As for the original point in this thread, that because “Allâh leads astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills” there is no Mercy in Islam…

Well, does that mean there is also no Mercy in Christianity because 2Thessalonians 2:11,12 says “And for this cause, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the Truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” ?

No, of course, the Most High is extremely Merciful. It’s just that He will not continually extend His Mercy to those who deny His signs in order to persist in their unbelief. He will eventually lead such people astray by sending them strong delusion and that fact is proclaimed in all His revelations to mankind.

This is a quote from the King James or one of its derivatives. The Catholic Bible (NAB and Douay-Rheims) states that they will be condemned, not damned. Also, a short survey of Bibles on biblegateway.com shows that the word is overwhelmingly translated as condemned, not damned.

Condemnation is short of damnation. For the individuals spoken of here, there is hope, even in their delusion.

 

[Montalban]

My husband , who is from Pakistan was taught that Judas died in his place.
Dont know if that is in the quran or if its just what they believe.

Still, it’s a belief that Al-lah deceived people into believing the person they were killing was Jesus.

 

[Montalban]

Robert Satloff, executive director of the Washington Institute, an expert on US Middle East policy, and author of “Among the Righteous: Lost Stories from the Holocaus’s Long Reach into Arab Lands,” will disuss “THe Role Arabs played in Saving Jews From the Holocaust”… Also appearing will be Faiza Abdelwahhab, the daughter of Khaled Abdelwahhab, the first-ever Arab to be nominated for recognition as a “righteous among the nations” by Yad Vashem, the Israeli Holocaust memorial authority. The honor is given to non-Jews who saved Jews during the Holocaust.

Assuming this arab was muslim, I’d say these are acts of mercy.

Wow a few individuals. God be praised that there were that many. Far less than the number of Moslems in special SS units, but hey, let’s ignore that.

 

[Montalban]

No, the Quran does not say that someone else was crucified in Jesus’ stead, despite that implication being inserted in several English translations by various translators.

Yes, it *does *say that. Those who are experts at translation use those words to convey best what the Arabic says into English - that’s the purpose of translation. Somebody was substituted and the people killing that person were lead to believe that it was Jesus.

There are several conflicting theories among Muslims as to who exactly was crucified-

It doesn’t matter who. Someone had the super-natural power to cause all those killing that person into believing that it was Jesus.

Are you going to say that some other ‘spirit’ was at work on behalf of Al-lah, he who has no partners?

The New Testament ALSO indicates a change of persona in the person who was crucified

This is true, but like with much Islamic argument has no bearing on this issue. Although Jesus was changed, he appeared to the Apostles as Jesus. They recognised him. No one deceived them.

The Biblical notion that he had changed is to do with his resurrection, which you deny, so it doesn’t help your case because in a Christian context it’s understood that his flesh - the human part of him had undergone restoration

 

[Montalban]

2 natures in one person?

You mean you believe that Jesus was both holy AND unholy at the same time?

For an ‘ex-Catholic’ that’s a rather amusing thing to say. Surely one who was so well versed in Catholic teaching (as you claim to be) would know that Christians understand this as being of God and Man.

He himself addressed the Father as “the ONLY true God” and specified that the Father is “my God and YOUR God” (John 17:3, 20:17.

carm.org/islam.htm has a marvellous set of apologetics on this (although they’re a gasp protestant site)

You ought not to contradict Jesus with your own personal interpretations.

A case of practicing what one preaches.

 

[eldon]

Originally Posted by eldon
2 natures in one person?

You mean you believe that Jesus was both holy AND unholy at the same time?

For an ‘ex-Catholic’ that’s a rather amusing thing to say. Surely one who was so well versed in Catholic teaching (as you claim to be) would know that Christians understand this as being of God and Man.

You missed the point: Jesus only had a holy nature-- NOT an unholy nature also. However, the body of sin that was crucified was definitely of an unholy nature, “made to be sin”.

That proves a definite CHANGE of persona on or before the cross which is also what the Quran specifies. Those who dismiss the Quran as falsity are neglecting to consider what the New Testament teaches as to the WHOLE scenario, especially in light of Leviticus 16 which stipulates that the Scapegoat, the goat set free, made the Atonement for the people of Israel, NOT the goat who was slain.

If the OT meant as much to you as it is supposed to mean, as per Matthew 5:17-19, you would not gloss over the OT specifications of Atonement, and would see that the Quran is in accord with what the Bible teaches in this matter.

 

[Verisimilitude]

You missed the point: Jesus only had a holy nature-- NOT an unholy nature also. However, the body of sin that was crucified was definitely of an unholy nature, “made to be sin”.

Obviously I think you miss the point. What leads you to believe had only a holy nature, and if that were true, why do you accept the Qur’anic version and not the Gospel accounts of His life?

That proves a definite CHANGE of persona on or before the cross which is also what the Quran specifies. Those who dismiss the Quran as falsity are neglecting to consider what the New Testament teaches as to the WHOLE scenario, especially in light of Leviticus 16 which stipulates that the Scapegoat, the goat set free, made the Atonement for the people of Israel, NOT the goat who was slain.

Why do Muslims say on one hand the OT & NT are corrupt and untrustworthy, but on the other hand reference it to prove some obscure point. Comparing both they contradict each other so only one can be true. Why do you accept the one that came 600 years later from the mind of an illiterate? And if Jesus were of a holy nature, Muhammed admitted he was not, but yet Muslims elevate Muhammed over Christ.

 

[Morning_Star15]

Obviously I think you miss the point. What leads you to believe had only a holy nature, and if that were true, why do you accept the Qur’anic version and not the Gospel accounts of His life?

I asked earlier but you didn’t answer. Why would God cheapen the sacrifice that way?

Why do Muslims say on one hand the OT & NT are corrupt and untrustworthy, but on the other hand reference it to prove some obscure point. Comparing both they contradict each other so only one can be true. Why do you accept the one that came 600 years later from the mind of an illiterate? And if Jesus were of a holy nature, Muhammed admitted he was not, but yet Muslims elevate Muhammed over Christ.

Exactly.

 

[eldon]

Obviously I think you miss the point. What leads you to believe had only a holy nature, and if that were true, why do you accept the Qur’anic version and not the Gospel accounts of His life?

Neither the Quran nor the gospels indicate that Jesus ever sinned, that is why I say he had ONLY a holy nature.

I asked earlier but you didn’t answer. Why would God cheapen the sacrifice that way?

A better question is Why do you consider it “God cheapening the sacrifice” by fulfilling His Word in Leviticus 16?

That passage foreshadows the Atonement Jesus (as) made for Israel and stipulates that the Atonement is made via the Scapegoat set free, not sacrificed.

A Believer’s only option is either to accept that Jesus (as) somehow went free from the sacrifice to make the Atonement OR reckon that somehow someone else (Judas or Barabbas) made the Atonement by being set free. I believe Jesus alone made the Atonement in fulfillment of Leviticus 16.

Why do Muslims say on one hand the OT & NT are corrupt and untrustworthy, but on the other hand reference it to prove some obscure point.

When Muhammad (saws) said Neither believe the People of the book nor disbelieve them, but say we believe in that which was revealed to you AND in that which was revealed to us, and our Lord and your Lord are the same , Muslims in general were spared from the detailed task of trying to figure out what parts of the OT & NT are true and what parts are corrupted.

However, certain Muslims like me, who were People of the Book BEFORE we became Muslims, have the insight and duty to guide other People of the Book to Islam, using the OT, NT, and Quran.

Comparing both they contradict each other so only one can be true.

If you’ve studied the seeming contradictions between the OT and NT, then you are prepared to resolve the seeming contradictions between the Quran and Bible.

Why do you accept the one that came 600 years later from the mind of an illiterate?

The NT calls the disciples of Jesus “ignorant and unlearned men”, so should you reject their words the same way you reject Muhammad?

It is not for us to pick and choose whom the Most High uses to send His Revelations to mankind, our duty is to submit to His Revelation, even when He chooses to raise up children unto Abraham out from among the stone idols of Arabia.

And if Jesus were of a holy nature, Muhammed admitted he was not, but yet Muslims elevate Muhammed over Christ.

That is the natural (carnal) result of centuries of bickering between Muslims and Christians, but Muslims are not supposed to elevate one Prophet over another.

 

[eliasaph99]

Neither the Quran nor the gospels indicate that Jesus ever sinned, that is why I say he had ONLY a holy nature.

A better question is Why do you consider it “God cheapening the sacrifice” by fulfilling His Word in Leviticus 16?

That passage foreshadows the Atonement Jesus (as) made for Israel and stipulates that the Atonement is made via the Scapegoat set free, not sacrificed.

A Believer’s only option is either to accept that Jesus (as) somehow went free from the sacrifice to make the Atonement OR reckon that somehow someone else (Judas or Barabbas) made the Atonement by being set free. I believe Jesus alone made the Atonement in fulfillment of Leviticus 16.

When Muhammad (saws) said Neither believe the People of the book nor disbelieve them, but say we believe in that which was revealed to you AND in that which was revealed to us, and our Lord and your Lord are the same , Muslims in general were spared from the detailed task of trying to figure out what parts of the OT & NT are true and what parts are corrupted.

However, certain Muslims like me, who were People of the Book BEFORE we became Muslims, have the insight and duty to guide other People of the Book to Islam, using the OT, NT, and Quran.

If you’ve studied the seeming contradictions between the OT and NT, then you are prepared to resolve the seeming contradictions between the Quran and Bible.

The NT calls the disciples of Jesus “ignorant and unlearned men”, so should you reject their words the same way you reject Muhammad?

It is not for us to pick and choose whom the Most High uses to send His Revelations to mankind, our duty is to submit to His Revelation, even when He chooses to raise up children unto Abraham out from among the stone idols of Arabia.

That is the natural (carnal) result of centuries of bickering between Muslims and Christians, but Muslims are not supposed to elevate one Prophet over another.

That is a gross misinterpretation of Leviticus 16. The goat which is sacrificed is the sin offering to God. As all sacrifices, it must be without blemish. Christ is the only man who could fulfill this. The goat which is set free is the hope that sin will be carried out of the community for the coming year. As all sacrifices, it must be without blemish. Christ is the only man who could fulfill this.

Christ is both the sacrifice and the scapegoat. His pure unblemished blood makes the perfect sin offering to God. In His resurrection, He carries sin away from the people removing its permanent effects from us.

A believers only option is not to deny the plain truth of history. Even secular historians agree that the man Jesus Christ was crucified. It is one of the best attested facts in history. In faith, I believe that after His death on the Cross, He resurrected and conquered sin, thereby carrying it into a distant uninhabited land. This is also spoken of as Satan being chained, which is in Revelation.

There are not “seeming contradictions” between the Bible and the Quran. There is outright contradiction. The Quran claims that Abraham intended to sacrifice Ishmael. The Quran claims that Abraham built the Kaaba. The Quran claims that Adam built the Kaaba. All in contradiction to the Bible.