Mercy in Islam

[eliasaph99]

Let me try again to explain: Muhammad (saws) told us to neither believe nor disbelieve the people of the book because if you believe them you may be believing in something that they added to or altered from the book and if you disbelieve them you may be disbelieving in something that is truth from the book. Rather we are to say, we believe in what was revealed to you (though not necessarilly with what you say about what was revealed).

Thus Muhammad’s instruction was not “mindless drivel” but was a warning of the necessity of discerning between Revealed Truth versus people’s traditions and interpolations of those Revelations.

Any necessary particulars of the former Revelations are in the Quran, so that Muslims in general don’t need to go digging through the Bible or asking Jews and Christians for instruction as to the practice of our faith.

If Muhammad had so little authority to speak, then WHY did his message have such sweeping success?

You need to remember Gamaliel’s advice from the book of Acts 5:38 “…if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: but if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.”

**That’s right. And you and your ilk haven’t overthrown the Holy Catholic Church yet. Don’t forget, this quote wasn’t spoken about some Islamic organization, it was spoken to the Christians about their Christian organization. Your attempt to twist it to support Islam is typical of Muslim deception.

Also, how exactly does your attempt to actually use the Bible square with what you’ve written above about Mohammeds instructions? Are you claiming that the quote here is true? How do you know? Maybe we added it to the book.

Keep trying to talk out of both sides of your face. Practice makes perfect. **

Christians have been fighting against Islam (and against God) for over 14 centuries now and Islam has only grown throughout the earth since that time.

It is Islam that has been fighting against Christianity. Your desert religion invaded our cities and seized our holy lands. The blood of our martyrs still cries out to us from the dust. Christianity has only grown throughout the earth during all this time. In fact, Christians comprise about a third of the earths population compared to Islam comprising a sixth.

Again, if he was no messenger of God, how did/does his message have such great success?

Hinduism has also had great success. It is stable and has some 900 million adherents. By your simplistic argument, perhaps you should consider worshiping Ganesha?

As for Gabriel, he identified himself by name as Muhammad was travelling home from the Cave.

You need to take a more critical look at the contents of the Bible before you denigrate and reject the Quran !

Have you forgotten Joshua’s marching orders in Canaan “kill everything that has breath” ? Have you forgotten such gems as Psalm 137:9 “Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones” ? The Most High has consistently shown forth His wrath against rebelling unbelievers AND had His people to execute His wrath at times throughout history.

**The commands in the Bible to the ancient Israelites are specific commands directed against specific groups of people for specific reasons. They are only for that moment.

The commands to kill in the Quran are open ended. They can be leveled at any group by any Muslims so inclined. They frequently are used to attack not just outsiders, but other Muslim groups which some sect feels is not Islamic enough.

God never gave any group of people open ended commands to kill. There is only one being who loves death and would issue such a command, Satan.**

Mercy in Islam is found in the Quran and is offered to all men thereby, yet the consequence of rejecting the Mercy of the Most High is also there, as well as in all previous Revelations. We treasure the Mercy Allah has offered to us and we commend to all men that blessed hope, realizing that “if Allah punished men as they deserved He would not leave upon earth so much as an ant”.

Mercy in the Quran is basically non-existent. It is stated, but there is no mercy in actual practice. Take, for example, the command in Islam to kill those who convert from Islam. Real merciful.

 

[jack_hawkins]

For an ‘ex-Catholic’ that’s a rather amusing thing to say. Surely one who was so well versed in Catholic teaching (as you claim to be) would know that Christians understand this as being of God and Man.

You missed the point: Jesus only had a holy nature-- NOT an unholy nature also. However, the body of sin that was crucified was definitely of an unholy nature, “made to be sin”.

That proves a definite CHANGE of persona on or before the cross which is also what the Quran specifies. Those who dismiss the Quran as falsity are neglecting to consider what the New Testament teaches as to the WHOLE scenario, especially in light of Leviticus 16 which stipulates that the Scapegoat, the goat set free, made the Atonement for the people of Israel, NOT the goat who was slain.

If the OT meant as much to you as it is supposed to mean, as per Matthew 5:17-19, you would not gloss over the OT specifications of Atonement, and would see that the Quran is in accord with what the Bible teaches in this matter.

That heresy (originally adopted by the Gnostics I believe) uis specifically refuted in the NT, which you should know as a former Catholic. You ignore the Passover Lamb in your very blinkered study of the typology of the crucifixion, which is why you have come to the wrong conclusion you have.
I have been able to keep charitable, which is a struggle with someone who is effectively spitting on the blood of Jesus Christ like you are.
The Passover Lamb was killed and eaten, thus causing the Angel of Death to pass over. That is the foreshadowing of the Crucifixion. The Judas Goat undoubtedly died, it was cast into the desert so using that as some justification for arguing that Christ didn’t die is very flimsy and bad Biblical scholarship frankly.

 

[jack_hawkins]

eldon;2137964:

You call that proof! Even demons knew that Jesus was the holy one from God, and they’re most certainly not from God!

Vickie

exactly! this point came to me later on as well!
clearly there is rather more to it than that - like most of Sacred Scripture, it needs to be read as a whole
there are so many proofs that Islam isn’t of God anyway - Holy Day on Friday, the day of the witches’ Shabbat, holy colour black the colour of evil, worship of a man (“Mohammed”) beside God, etc etc

 

[Morning_Star15]

Mercy in Islam is found in the Quran and is offered to all men thereby, yet the consequence of rejecting the Mercy of the Most High is also there, as well as in all previous Revelations. We treasure the Mercy Allah has offered to us and we commend to all men that blessed hope, realizing that “if Allah punished men as they deserved He would not leave upon earth so much as an ant”.

What you really need to consider, Verisimilitude, is how Jesus (as) feels about the distortions your faith has made about him: proclaiming him as God though he said that the Father is the only true God, his God and your God, making an idol out of the cross, and otherwise exalting traditions over the Word.

Muhammad and Islam were sent as a Mercy from the Most High for mankind, yet the result of rejecting and denigrating that Mercy is only Wrath, which Jesus himself will execute in large part.

Jesus was constantly speaking about peace, and that’s what He offered His followers (and still offers them today). Numerous times in the Gospels, Jesus says “peace be with you” to His disciples:

Luke 24:36 : While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be to you.”

John 14:27 : “Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.”

John 16:33 : “These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace.”

**John 20:26 **: So Jesus said to them again, " Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you."

These are just a few examples of Jesus unconditionally offering peace to His disciples and telling them not to fear. Does the Qu’ran contain any such messages of peace and reassurance from Allah, instead of wrath?

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
That’s the moslem way.

The lesser “god” allah is a merciless god.

And his adherents are merciless in their avoidance tactics…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

hola…

please do not say “lesser god” the catechism and the dogmatic constitution say they worship the same God.

From CCC:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

I agree that moslems (muslims), who are people who claim islam is their religion,… “profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day”…

…but that the god that is actually DESCRIBED in islam is not God, but a god “interposed” as a mask by Satan.

I don’t violate the tenets of the Church by claiming this, because I truly do believe that the “normal folks” who describe themselves as moslems are sincere in their belief that they are worshipping God. They ARE worshipping God, in so much as they are are ignorant of the “mask” that islam proposes as God.

“Allah”, as presented in islam, is one of those “shadows and images” that the CCC is describing.

You’ll notice that “islam” (nor allah) is not referenced in the CCC.

(( At least that I could find via a cursory online search. ))

I haven’t read this yet,… but:

answering-islam.org/Hoaxes/vatican2.html

What’s your response to my comments? I’m MORE than a little interested…

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[eldon]

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

 

[jack_hawkins]

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword Matthew 10:34

Yes, you’ve proven how by quoting one solitary verse out of context you can give the impression something totally different was said - as is true for any document.
Did you have any other point?

 

[eliasaph99]

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

Ah…

No reply to any post, but an attempt at a countercharge…

Avoidance, the feint of the losing side.

 

[Jayda]

What’s your response to my comments? I’m MORE than a little interested…

hola Keikiolu,

gracias, i do not have a response per se… i am very confused so i put the question to a Cardinal.

Dominus Vobiscum

 

[Jayda]

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

hola eldon,

the context of this is that belief in Christ will be painful for many, they must choose to be separated from their families and the things they love if they love them more than Christ.

gracias

 

[Keikiolu]

hola Keikiolu,

gracias, i do not have a response per se… i am very confused so i put the question to a Cardinal.

Dominus Vobiscum

VERY COOL…!!!

PLEASE let me know the outcome.

Thank you VERY very very much indeed,… as I don’t have a Cardinal handy to pose questions before. THAT is extremely nifty of you to (be able to) do that…!

Wow…!

Mahalo nui loa…!!

Ke KANAKA nui 'oe…!! ( You 'da MAN…!! )
(( …unless you’re a wahine,… but,… you get the idea…! ))

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

I bet even you know the true meaning and context of that statement, and yet you use it to draw a illogical, irrelevent point that actually only shows the real violence in the Qur’an.

Is that what Islam has taught you; to dirty the truth so its equal to the lie you profess?

On that Day you will have to be honest- it’s unavoidable. Unlike now. Be carefull. Think of that particular choice you are making. Just compare the actual life of the founders of each faith. Out of those two, who can show you mercy? Who deserves greater respect?

 

[Jayda]

hola Keikiolu,

i posed the question with a link to this discussion to H.E. Seán Cardinal O’Malley and his Archdiocese of Boston.

Your Eminence,

I am very sorry to trouble you in this way but I am very confused and am appealing to the highest authority I think might be able to respond. I have been told two conflicting things about the interpretation of the Catechism at 840, regarding the Church’s relationship with the Muslims. My question was actually in regards to whether the Catechism teaches that the muslim Allah is actually the same God as the “God of Abraham,” or whether the Catechism teaches that muslims merely profess to hold belief in God but the God they are worshipping is not that of Abraham.

One monastary I contacted long ago and have forgotten told me that the correct interpretation is that they worship the same God, only in H.E. Cardinal Mannings’ words “they worship Him in their way, not in His.” However an individual from the internet told me that according to another monastary the correct interpretation is that muslims merely profess to hold a belief in God, but the God they worship and describe is not the same.

The context of this dilemma is a conversation with a Catholic brother who described the Muslim god as “lesser,” I was afraid that this might be blasphemous… unfortunately because of the conflicting answers from the monastaries I am very confused. Here is a link to the conversation.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2143747&postcount=83

If your eminence could provide any guidance on this matter I would be much less confused, but please, I understand you have a very busy schedule and I do not wish my question to take you from it.

Muchas Gracias,
May the Lord be with you,

Doña Annette Sofia Maria Isabel Hamilton de Eliot-Lerdo y Fitzgerald, Baronesa de Tejada

Deacon Charlie Connell sent me an email with the archdiocese response [emphasis his]:

Hi Annette,
There is no need to go any higher authority than the Catechism of the Catholic Church, article 841. It states clearly that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God:

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Of course this article is based on the beautiful expression of our belief that there is only one God so anyone who seeks God by any name seeks the one true God contained in the Vatican II document, Lumen Gentium. Here are paragraphs 15 and 16 but I would strongly recommend you read the whole document: (cin.org/v2church.html)

1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

(continued next post)

 

[Jayda]

(Continued from the last)

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Peace,
Deacon Charlie Cornell

Muchas gracias Deacon Cornell,

May I please quote your response in the conversation that brought the question up? I think if I showed this to the person I had the discussion with they would be greatful for the clarification, and all the other Catholic readers would not be confused about the issue.

Gracias
May the Lord be with you
Annette

Annette Hamilton wrote:
Muchas gracias Deacon Cornell,

May I please quote your response in the conversation that
brought the question up? I think if I showed this to the person I >had the discussion with they would be greatful for the
clarification, and all the other Catholic readers would not be >confused about the issue.

Sure and please give them the sources so they can go check it out themselves. The catechism is online at usccb.org/catechism/text/.

and Paragraph 841 can be found at
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p3.htm

Peace,
Deacon Charlie Cornell

Hola Deacon,

I will certainly do this, muchas gracias for your assistance.

May the Lord be with you
Annette

So… I think that this is now a matter of Obsequium religiosum, especially since it is in the dogmatic constitution…

Dominus Vobiscum

 

[eldon]

Originally Posted by eldon
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

I bet even you know the true meaning and context of that statement, and yet you use it to draw a illogical, irrelevent point that actually only shows the real violence in the Qur’an.

Is that what Islam has taught you; to dirty the truth so its equal to the lie you profess?

On that Day you will have to be honest- it’s unavoidable. Unlike now. Be carefull. Think of that particular choice you are making. Just compare the actual life of the founders of each faith. Out of those two, who can show you mercy? Who deserves greater respect?

Luke’s account elaborates on the true meaning and context of Jesus’ remarks:

Luke 12:37: Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38: And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39: And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40: Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41: Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42: And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43: Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44: Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45: But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46: The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47: And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48: But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
49: I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I if it be already kindled?
50: But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
51: Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
53: The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Jesus specified that he came to bring the sword of division, even among families, not to mention among mankind in general. Yet he also prayed that his followers would be one as he and the Father are one: united in purpose.

We see today that his Christian followers are more divided than ever: multitudes of denominations striving vainly about many points of doctrine while Catholics hold to their tradition of thinking themselves above error.

The bulk of Jesus’ Islamic followers, however, are holding to his course: worshipping the only true God as he did and watching for Jesus’ return. These facts are “meat in due season” for you gathered here today.

 

[Jayda]

hola eldon,

i think this is a strange argument since islam is just such a splinter group from the Holy Church. it seems like what you are saying is self fulfilling prophesy… there is an excellent book about how islam is a Catholic heresy… I will link you to it if you are interested.

i do not think you are being entirely straightforward about the unitedness of muslims… there are countless divisions beyond sunni and shia (who fight and kill each other). there are also all the groups mentioned in this thread, and different schools of muslim laws which are very different. there are Baha’i, Druze, NOI, and other groups who have rejected fundamental points of Islamic belief that go beyond even the sunni and shia divide.

please interpret the Bible in light of the teachings of the Holy Church, not in light of other religions.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Jayda]

Why dont you post your question on a Islamic board?

go to

ummah.com or sunniforum.com/forum/

Or is it easier and safe to post here so more people can gang up on them?

If you want the answer you need to go straight to the horses mouth…

hola SpaceGirl,

hopefully the OP does not object, but i posted the question on sunniforum to see what they say…

i will paraphrase their answers

Dominus Vobiscum

 

[Verisimilitude]

Jesus specified that he came to bring the sword of division, even among families, not to mention among mankind in general. Yet he also prayed that his followers would be one as he and the Father are one: united in purpose.

We see today that his Christian followers are more divided than ever: multitudes of denominations striving vainly about many points of doctrine while Catholics hold to their tradition of thinking themselves above error.

The bulk of Jesus’ Islamic followers, however, are holding to his course: worshipping the only true God as he did and watching for Jesus’ return. These facts are “meat in due season” for you gathered here today.

You really don’t have to quote the bible. I know it. Why you continue to quote what you won’t rely on as true, is telling. It’s also hypocritical.

Where do you get Catholics think they are above error? Only one faith in this conversation makes that claim, though both claim truth.

The divisions in Christianity are not as striking as you claim. With a few exceptions their disagreements are non-violent unlike Islam’s few excetions of peacefull disagreements. The core belief that Jesus is One with the Father, was born of the Virgin, suffered, died, and resurrected- is not in dispute by true Christians. There are as many Catholics as Muslims. There are an equal number of non-Catholic Christians that still believe those core beliefs if dispute various fine points.

Like JW & Mormons, Islam has a distorted view of Christ, and what you identify as “Jesus’ Islamic followers”; if they are following the Jesus described in the Qur’an they follow incorrectly.

I said it before: you can’t believe both books.

 

[eliasaph99]

hola SpaceGirl,

hopefully the OP does not object, but i posted the question on sunniforum to see what they say…

i will paraphrase their answers

Dominus Vobiscum

I don’t have any objection at all. It’s a great question that should be asked. I look forward to seeing what they have to say.

I also posted the question on the whyislam.org forum. I didn’t get a great response and don’t feel that anyone made a real attempt to answer my question.

 

[Jayda]

I don’t have any objection at all. It’s a great question that should be asked. I look forward to seeing what they have to say.

I also posted the question on the whyislam.org forum. I didn’t get a great response and don’t feel that anyone made a real attempt to answer my question.

gracias

this was the answer from them:

I apologise for not explaning myself more better in the first post but Allah leads people to what they want. We are different from Angels as we have Free Choice. We get to choose whether we want to worship or not.

according to this muslim the issue is not that God decides to guide this person into wrongness, and this other person into rightness, it is that the person decides what they want and God will lead them to what they want.

so… when they are astray it is because they wanted it but God allowed it and guided them to what they wanted.

Dominus Vobiscum