MERGED: Does Hell exist today?

[BTTG]

• ** My reply-** When we read the OT, God provided the opportunity for Israel to be His people, to take His word to the world. For thousands of years, there was false doctrines and believes in Israel.

God could zap Satan right now if He wanted too. Why does God allow Satan to continue to harm His children for thousands of years?

written with love

As for Satan being allowed to continue:

The way I see it, it really has been up to us all along. God has been waiting on us to fulfill the Great Commission and bring the Good news to all the world. That must happen first. And it has taken us many centuries to have the tools to do so. We are close, so very close.

But, wait, there is also this problem we have of our capacity to do evil. We blew it in the garden. But think about this:

When Jesus comes and rules for a thousand years of perfect peace, yet, Yet then He must release Lucifer for a little time. Why?because even then, with all that wonderful peace, there will still be people who will join up with the devil and war against Jesus!!! That is how evil we can be of our own free will.

Of course this will be the last war and war will be no more. Humanity must be rid of it’s lingering evil intentions. And that is why there will be the Lake of Fire, wherein Satan and all who rebelled and were doomed to hell are tossed into. That lake of Fire will remain for us to go and see them in there.

only after this will we deserve the perfection of earth made new again.

He is at the Door, waiting for His Father to say" Open’. And the Father is waiting on us.

Hello

This is a little off the thread. But we can discuss in PM if you wish.

Does Jesus rule physically on earth during the thousand years? What people will join with Satan to rebel against Jesus? Will the lake of fire remain forever?

thank you

written with love

 

[BTTG]

you are one of the Least condescending people i know Craig. ill vouch for you and your sincerity. if i didnt believe you were honestly searching, i would not have spent as much time with you as i have. also as i have told you in p.m. you keep me on my toes! Peace to you and yours.

thank you for your kind words. God is love.

 

[Doxiemom]

The Lake of Fire remains forever as far i can tell. It is called the Second Death.

 

[BlueShadow123]

It was around before god even made earth.

There was a war in heaven between god and satan and then he cast satan out.

what an idiot to challenge god.

 

[benidict]

I’m hurt that you don’t consider me a theologian and a scholar Ben. You say the real question is finding a theologian that teaches what my church teaches prior to 1800. See, Ben that’s not the question at all. The question you can find up at the top of each one of the post pages and that is “Does Hell exist today?” and all this asking for theologians who teach this doctrine before 1800 is merely diversionary from the OP and needs to be taken to another thead. As for throwing out verses missing the point, that just is not true. You see for me the bible is the ONLY source of truth, so it is only natural that I would defer to it’s wisdom.

Ok

nice side step Richard. it has everything to do with the op. you are claiming soul sleep, and that there is nothing that survives death, and that no-one is in hell at the moment. so i guess you prove my point that this doctrine was not taught before the 1800s. therefore Christians from every stripe, were teaching in a literal heaven and hell, an immediate and future judgement. not one of them back to the time of Christ taught anything different. i will also be giving you verses from the book of wisdom which im sure you are familiar with that speak to this. will have to give them to you in the next few days. im very busy. thank you in advance for your patience. Peace

 

[benidict]

Now we get into a question of substance the answer to which will give us some insight into the OP.

First we need to look at Jude and see just who it is that Jude is talking about. He is talking about the judgement, condemnation, of the wicked. We have to realize that Jesus returns more than once. The first time He comes He does not set foot on the earth. This return is decribed in

John 14
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

and also in

1Thess.4
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Ok, we got this so far? The Lord returns to “recieve” all those that are “in Christ” IOW the righteous. So, what happens to the wicked?

2Peter3
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The wicked along with the earth and all the works of the world are burned up by the brightness of His comming and the righteous go back to heaven to be with Jesus. But this is not the end of the story. God still has to deal with sin and the final outcome of the wicked. So, after 1,000 yrs. in heaven reviewing the books to show that God has done everything that He can to save mankind, He returns the third time to pronounce judgement and set up His kingdom on earth.

Zechariah 14
1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Notice this time Jesus comes all the way down to this earth. This is a new earth an earth that has laid dormant for 1,000 yrs. The first thing that has to be done on this new earth is to take care of the sin problem. This is what you are reading about in Jude. When Jesus returns this time He has all of the righteous with Him. These are those of the first resurrection They shall never taste death again. The wicked however will be raised up again for one reason and that is to have judgement prononced on them. Rev.20

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire…

all these verses are true Richard. but you continue to only pick and choose. you do not listen to the whole council of God. only that which seems to fit your beliefs. therefore you get a distorted picture. sad really. also you are only partially correct to say you accept the bible as the ONLY rule of faith. your movement only uses parts of it that seem to back up what your churches doctrines teach. its no different than the fundamentalist, who believe in premillinialism only using verses that seem to back up what they are saying, and ignoring, or bypassing the rest of the council. also you reject apostolic tradition. this is a rejection of the apostles themselves who told us we are to follow the traditions that they taught, either in word, or in writing. Peace and prayers for you.

 

[benidict]

It was around before god even made earth.

There was a war in heaven between god and satan and then he cast satan out.

what an idiot to challenge god.

great point BlueShadow. i didnt think about that. God did create the lake of fire for the devil and his angels who rebelled. it was never designed for man. unfortunately adam and eve fell. which incurred the same penalty for the unsaved that will be the final state of the fallen angels. may we pray not one of us ends up there. Peace to you and yours.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

all these verses are true Richard. but you continue to only pick and choose. you do not listen to the whole council of God. only that which seems to fit your beliefs. therefore you get a distorted picture. sad really. also you are only partially correct to say you accept the bible as the ONLY rule of faith. your movement only uses parts of it that seem to back up what your churches doctrines teach. its no different than the fundamentalist, who believe in premillinialism only using verses that seem to back up what they are saying, and ignoring, or bypassing the rest of the council. also you reject apostolic tradition. this is a rejection of the apostles themselves who told us we are to follow the traditions that they taught, either in word, or in writing. Peace and prayers for you.

Your kidding, Right? You can read what I have posted here, follow the logic and the inevitable truth that it leads to and say that I am somehow missing an elusive big picture which you by the way fail to explain. I guess I should have realized before that you are not really interested in the truth, but merely trying to promote your distorted view at the expense of it. So, in light of your stiffnecked resistance to the clear word of God this dialogue is over. You seem intent on derailing this thread, I can only guess, because you are not able to refute anything that I say in a point by point manner and that is because it is the truth and based completely on what the word of God clearly says. So, let me leave you with a word of advice. Take my last post and study it out. Try to find things wrong with it. examine the passages closely and prayerfully. They will lead you to the truth.
Jesus says
Luke 21:8
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

If you subscribe to this spiritualit Idea that souls are In heaven and communicate with the living. You will surely be decieved.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

It was around before god even made earth.

There was a war in heaven between god and satan and then he cast satan out.

what an idiot to challenge god.

Satan was cast to the earth not into the lake of fire.

Rev.12
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev21
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Also known as the second death a death from which there will be no resurrection.

 

[pablope]

The bible tells me so.

Psalm6
5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

2Peter2
9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

**The unjust are “reserved” unto the day of judgement. They are reserved in the grave./**QUOTE]

*I think we are taking here about saints. And you are talking about the unjust. Do you think the Saints are unjust? Where do you think St peter is now (crucified upside down) or St Paul (beheaded) or the other Apostles?

Have you dared to even read a life of a saint, before you make this judegement that they are unjust? Maybe, start with St. Francis of Assisi, as a challenge to you.

Let me give you a real event (shortened for this thread), and I want a strait answer from you:

There are two men, M1 and M2. M1, volunteered to go to a leper colony, to minister to them, to give them dignity, ate with them, slept with them, spent time with them. In the process, the contacted the disease and died because of it.

His deeds got attention and alot of people pitched in the helped and he got praised for his work.

M2, seeing the honor being given to M1, became envious and accused M2 of various misdeeds, of sleeping or cohabiting with the lepers, his disease was a result or sexual contact, and other accusations.

Question: Where do you think M1 is now? Don’t you think he is heaven right now, with God for what he did? Do you honestly think God would let him sleep in death until His return or day of judgement.

And of M2, where do you think he is? Would he not merit immediate punishment for his deeds?*

 

[pablope]

There is no doubt that there are some that are in heaven now, as you have pointed out, but these are exceptions to the rule as I have pointed out.

*Richard, have you even bothered to read the links I sent BTTG? So, I take it you somewhat agree that there are souls now in heaven with God.

Revelation 6:9-11 (King James Version)

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,* and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

*And here are the prayers of the saints:

Revelation 5:8 (King James Version)

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.*

17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

As you can see from this passage Jesus had not returned to His Father in heaven three days after His death, so He could not have been in heaven with the thief on the day He was crucified. The problem is with the uninspired translators who misplaced a comma.
Here’s the v. as it appears in Luke 23
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Now try moving the comma after the word “today” We get

43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Changes the whole meaning of the sentence.

Operative word here is “some”.

Prayerfully look over what I have posted and ask yourself, Could yours be wrong?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard Kastner;7244709:

The bible tells me so.

Psalm6
5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

2Peter2
9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

The unjust are “reserved” unto the day of judgement. They are reserved in the grave./

QUOTE]

*I think we are taking here about saints. And you are talking about the unjust. Do you think the Saints are unjust? Where do you think St peter is now (crucified upside down) or St Paul (beheaded) or the other Apostles?

Have you dared to even read a life of a saint, before you make this judegement that they are unjust? Maybe, start with St. Francis of Assisi, as a challenge to you.

Let me give you a real event (shortened for this thread), and I want a strait answer from you:

There are two men, M1 and M2. M1, volunteered to go to a leper colony, to minister to them, to give them dignity, ate with them, slept with them, spent time with them. In the process, the contacted the disease and died because of it.

His deeds got attention and alot of people pitched in the helped and he got praised for his work.

M2, seeing the honor being given to M1, became envious and accused M2 of various misdeeds, of sleeping or cohabiting with the lepers, his disease was a result or sexual contact, and other accusations.

Question: Where do you think M1 is now? Don’t you think he is heaven right now, with God for what he did? Do you honestly think God would let him sleep in death until His return or day of judgement.

And of M2, where do you think he is? Would he not merit immediate punishment for his deeds?*

It really doesn’t matter what I think. The bible says they are both in the grave awaiting the resurrection.

 

[pablope]

pablope;7251914:

It really doesn’t matter what I think. The bible says they are both in the grave awaiting the resurrection.

*So, even the verses below that prove your belief otherwise, you still not would change your belief?
*
Revelation 6:9-11 (King James Version)

9And when he had opened the fifth seal,** I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
**
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

And here are the prayers of the saints:

Revelation 5:7-9 (King James Version)

7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

I think there is a conflict in you but you hate to admit it otherwise…and you hate to admit the truth of the verses I qouted you above.

And please, spare me the verse slinging…i know you will find single verses in the Bible to refute the verses above…single verses taken singly do not amount to much that take the fullness of the verse and its meaning out of context.

 

[pablope]

pablope;7251914:

It really doesn’t matter what I think. The bible says they are both in the grave awaiting the resurrection.

** Where in the Bible?**

I still want your answer on this:

Have you dared to even read a life of a saint, before you make this judgement that they are unjust? Maybe, start with St. Francis of Assisi, as a challenge to you.

Let me give you a real event (shortened for this thread), and I want a strait answer from you:

There are two men, M1 and M2. M1, volunteered to go to a leper colony, to minister to them, to give them dignity, ate with them, slept with them, spent time with them. In the process, the contacted the disease and died because of it.

His deeds got attention and alot of people pitched in the helped and he got praised for his work.

M2, seeing the honor being given to M1, became envious and accused M2 of various misdeeds, of sleeping or cohabiting with the lepers, his disease was a result or sexual contact, and other accusations.

Question: Where do you think M1 is now? Don’t you think he is heaven right now, with God for what he did? Do you honestly think God would let him sleep in death until His return or day of judgement.

And of M2, where do you think he is? Would he not merit immediate punishment for his deeds?

Or are you scared to answer it because you are scared to face the answer? By the way, the answer is also Biblical.

 

[benidict]

Your kidding, Right? You can read what I have posted here, follow the logic and the inevitable truth that it leads to and say that I am somehow missing an elusive big picture which you by the way fail to explain. I guess I should have realized before that you are not really interested in the truth, but merely trying to promote your distorted view at the expense of it. So, in light of your stiffnecked resistance to the clear word of God this dialogue is over. You seem intent on derailing this thread, I can only guess, because you are not able to refute anything that I say in a point by point manner and that is because it is the truth and based completely on what the word of God clearly says. So, let me leave you with a word of advice. Take my last post and study it out. Try to find things wrong with it. examine the passages closely and prayerfully. They will lead you to the truth.
Jesus says
Luke 21:8
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

If you subscribe to this spiritualit Idea that souls are In heaven and communicate with the living. You will surely be decieved.

temper temper temper Richard… the issue is hell, and it has lead to the doctrine of soul sleep. which you have not been able to show was a doctrine of the Church before the 1800s. i have refuted you. with the truth that has been taught for more than 2000 years. i am truly sorry, you follow the “truth” as taught by E.G. White, and not the Truth of the bible, that is taught in the Catholic Church. i think you need to take luke 21:8 and apply it to your own journey. im not the one who was raised in the truth, and chose to leave it, for a woman. whos visions were quite possibly were caused by a tragic childhood event. this dialogue was not for your benefit or mine in the first place. it is for the thousands of people who are out their who will never even post. as far as im concerned you are following false doctrine and a lie. as far as im concerned we are engaged in spiritual warfare for the souls of many who will never even speak. i do care for the truth Richard. all i can do is pray for you to come back to it. Peace to you and yours. and prayers for you.

 

[benidict]

shaw: glad i could be of service. peace

 

[BlueShadow123]

Satan was cast to the earth not into the lake of fire.

Rev.12
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev21
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Also known as the second death a death from which there will be no resurrection.

Wouldn’t that mean that the devil is on earth with us now then? It would explain where evil comes from.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Wouldn’t that mean that the devil is on earth with us now then? It would explain where evil comes from.

It sure would.

 

[pablope]

It sure would.

Richard,

am still waiting for an answer. If you wish, you could PM me your answer and will stay that way. I am interested in what you think and I will share you where this story came from.

Let me give you a real event (shortened for this thread), and I want a strait answer from you:

There are two men, M1 and M2. M1, volunteered to go to a leper colony, to minister to them, to give them dignity, ate with them, slept with them, spent time with them. In the process, the contacted the disease and died because of it.

His deeds got attention and alot of people pitched in the helped and he got praised for his work.

M2, seeing the honor being given to M1, became envious and accused M1 of various misdeeds, of sleeping or cohabiting with the lepers, his disease was a result or sexual contact, and other accusations.

Question: Where do you think M1 is now? Don’t you think he is heaven right now, with God for what he did? Do you honestly think God would let him sleep in death until His return or day of judgement.

And of M2, where do you think he is? Would he not merit immediate punishment for his deeds?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard,

am still waiting for an answer. If you wish, you could PM me your answer and will stay that way. I am interested in what you think and I will share you where this story came from.

Let me give you a real event (shortened for this thread), and I want a strait answer from you:

There are two men, M1 and M2. M1, volunteered to go to a leper colony, to minister to them, to give them dignity, ate with them, slept with them, spent time with them. In the process, the contacted the disease and died because of it.

His deeds got attention and alot of people pitched in the helped and he got praised for his work.

M2, seeing the honor being given to M1, became envious and accused M1 of various misdeeds, of sleeping or cohabiting with the lepers, his disease was a result or sexual contact, and other accusations.

Question: Where do you think M1 is now? Don’t you think he is heaven right now, with God for what he did? Do you honestly think God would let him sleep in death until His return or day of judgement.

And of M2, where do you think he is? Would he not merit immediate punishment for his deeds?

I answered you in post #291.