MERGED: Music in the Mass/Not typical thread about Music

[Pug]

Hmmm. Your pastor may have something in his mind already, and that is why he chose you. Do you know if that is the case, does he want some particular direction that he thinks you would go?

Myself, I prefer voice alone, without instrumental support. Though on Easter, I love trumpets and bells and the like. I realize voice alone is diffficult for the average choir. The lack of instruments is a sort of silence for me, which adds to my sense of the sacred.

I can’t tell you how much I miss hearing the parts, like agnus dei and the like, sung in Latin. Some settings are so poignant.

 

[TheMc]

I grew up in the 50s and 60s and hymns were very much part of the Mass. My mother said in the 30s and 40s there were standard hymns that were sung at Mass, so I don’t know where you are getting this that hymns were not part of the Mass. Play an old hymn at mass and see how all the older people sing them. Granted most of the hymns sung at Mass had nothing to do with the readings or liturgical theme of the Mass, except maybe during Christmas, Lent and Easter. Many were Marian hymns or simply praise hymns.

What I was saying is that hymns are not part of the Mass. They are not in the missal, or another book “written” by the church. The propers are actually part of the Mass, not something sung during Mass. The propers are little bits of scripture, which is often from the psalms, that the church has for every Mass, along with a chant melody for each.

There are propers for the following times (the name of the proper is in parenthesis).

• The Procession/beginning of Mass (introit)
• Responsorial Psalm (gradual) (Yes, these aren’t exactly the same, you chant geeks, but that’s beside the point for now)
• The gospel acclamation (The alleluia verse [lent: the tract])
• The Preparation of the Altar and Gift Procession (offeretory)
• After the priest recieves communion (Communion)
• No “Proper” for the recessional, because the Mass is already finished

The official propers and their respective melodies may be found in the graduale romanum, or simpler latin versions in the graduale simplex. Both are binding, official books for use in the roman rite.

As with the Missal, the original propers are in latin, and may be used at any Mass, even when the rest of the Mass is in english.

Though with the Missal, there is only one translation that may be used, I believe the propers do not, so you have unofficial (but still may and should be used), helpful things like the simple propers project (The three major propers of the Mass in english, set to simple melodies that any musically inclined person can learn).

In short, the reason I say sing the Mass when referring to the propers, and sing at Mass when referring to hymns is because the propers for each day are tied to the Mass just like the readings and other changing prayers are. For example, the offical text the church has given for the procession for christmas is:

“Puer natus est nobis, et filius datus est nobis: cuius imperium super humerum eius: et vocabitur nomen eius, magni consilii Angelus”. Trans: On to us a child is born, unto us a son is given …

Every Mass has these texts that the church has given us. Hymns only replace them when they are used. Again, during the 50s, and the hymns were only sung by the congregation while the priest was celebrating Mass. The hymns were not part of the Mass, because the priest and people were doing two different things. The priest was celebrating Mass, and the people were singing hymns. The hymns were sung during mass, but not as part of the Mass.

Does this make sense?

 

[Victor_Pearson]

The thread I started, “Music in the Mass,” has spun off in all sorts of unintended directions. I thought my original question was simple enough: Is there any discussion about returning to the use of plain chant in the Mass rather than contemporary music?

Perhaps the question should have been: Is there any discussion AMONG THE BISHOPS about returning to the use of plain chant in the Mass? Also, where do the present day Benedictines and Cistercians stand on this issue? (I always viewed them as the guardians of plain chant in the liturgy.) Is sacred music a dead issue in th Catholic Church?

Well, perhaps it’s time for me to end this “thread” from my end. Bye.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Chant–regretfully, much of the “movie-watching” world hears chant and thinks “horror movie” or “Black Mass.” Or they think, “Wasn’t there a group of monks back in the 1990s who recorded a CD of Gregorian chant, became wildly popular with the public, and made a fortune?” In other words, chant, like many other forms of music, has become secularized here in the U.S. We are just as likely to hear chant at New Age retreats as we are in a Catholic church.

There are regrettably those who may think this. After all, when many people hear Bach’s Toccata and Fugue in D Minor they think more of Count Dracula than a piece written as a Lutheran liturgical prelude. I don’t expect them to know that there were no pipe organs in medieval Romania. However, while chant is indeed popular as New Age mood music, there are few who would not recognize its origins.

When they are not bashing it directly, Hollywood has largely kept the Catholic Church in the stereotype of the 1950’s: beautiful Gothic churches with every votive candle lit, flocks of fully-habited, ruler-wielding nuns, elderly priests who always address you as “my son,” and chant in the background. From my limited experience, the typical non-Catholic with no Catholic liturgical experience will listen to Earnest Sands’ Sing of the Lord’s Goodness and, if he likes jazz, think it a Christianized version of Dave Brubeck’s Take Five. That same typical non-Catholic will hear that chant CD and not think of New Agers contemplating their navels but of monks. Movie monks perhaps, but monks nonetheless.

Rather than consign our historical music over to horror movies and black masses (devil worshipers will just sing it backwards anyway), why not forcibly reclaim it as our own, and let the 70’s commercial jingles go the way of the 8-track and the Ford Pinto.

 

[TheMc]

I appreciate the civil tone of your posts.

You say that the propers are still “somewhat preferred.” My question–somewhat preferred by whom? Are you referring to the Church documents? Or are you saying that the parishioners prefer them? Or something or someone else?

Thanks.

Hello Cat,

I didn’t say they are preferred (although I believe they are), because I can’t really make a straight on argument from the documents, but I kind of have to take it in a round about way. While it does not say “You should use the propers if possible, otherwise use hymns”, there is still evidence that is convincing, if you take it as a whole unit, instead of each individual points.

That’s why I say somewhat preferred. I would like it if they were used more, and I believe the church envisions them to be used much more than they are now, but until it is made more clear, I doubt they will be used very much in most parishes, but I’d love to be proven wrong on this one.

Here’s my points:

First:
The numerous quotes about the pride of place of chant in the liturgy. I need not repost them. Here’s one example.

From the GIRM:
41.All other things being equal, Gregorian chant holds pride of place because it is proper to the Roman Liturgy. There are many quotes similar to this. Just take my word for it this time. They exist.

Second:
In GIRM paragraph 48, it reads as below:

*48. The singing at this time is done either alternately by the choir and the people or in a similar way by the cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone. In the dioceses of the United States of America there are four options for the Entrance Chant:

(1) the antiphon from the Roman Missal or the Psalm from the Roman Gradual as set to music there or in another musical setting;

(2) the seasonal antiphon and Psalm of the Simple Gradual;

(3) a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms;

(4) a suitable liturgical song similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.*

I have two comments about this. First, are most of the hymns used during Mass approved by the USCCB or diocese? There’s no option for “pick your own song”. Think about this.

Third:
See the post I’ve quoted below. It’s not from this thread, but it’s perfect to be used in this context, and I couldn’t have said it better.

[Referring to GIRM #48 (shown above)]
Undoubtedly, others will read it differently, but I read it as saying that the antiphon from the Missal or the Graduale Romanum is the first choice, the Graduale Simplex the second choice, some other antiphonal or metrical psalm the third choice, and a “suitable liturgical song similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop” the fourth, or last choice.

Hymns are meant to be sung during the liturgy of the hours; the propers are for Mass. I am not saying that hymns aren’t allowed. What I am saying is that the Church has expressed a preference, and we should move in that direction.

In most dioceses of the United States, in most parishes, there is absolutely no good reason not to be singing the propers, in some form. Especially given that so many different arrangements are available for free – in English, and written in modern notation, so one does not even need to learn Latin or learn how to read chant notation to get started.

Also, as said above, there’s not real tradition of hymns in the Mass. While sometimes, people would sing hymns during the Mass, I believe it was only at a low Mass.

Rather, hymns are in their proper place (no pun intended) during private devotions and the Liturgy of the Hours.

Most Sunday Masses at parishes today are not really the equivalent of a low Mass, but rather the equivilent of a missa cantata, during which I believe hymns were not allowed except before and after Mass.

[Cont. in the next post]

 

[TheMc]

[cont. from last post]

Fourth:
The church has given us several official chant books such as the Graduale Romanum/Simplex. Should we not use them? Why should the church publish them if they weren’t supposed to be used. Minor point, but it means something.

Fifth:
In a spirit of continuity, should we not at least try to use them in some way? For many many years before the reforms the propers were sung for Mass. Why stop now? Would you rather sing the words of God, which he has picked just for this occasion (though his church), or pick a hymn (which may or may not be theologically sound) which everyone knows, and sounds nice. It seems to be an easy choice.

Sixth:
The GIRM never says (that I’ve found) “The song at the beginning” or “the music sung during the offertory”. In multiple places, it makes reference to “the chants at the entrance, at the offertory, and at Communion”, which just happen to be the three major propers. (See GIRM #s 37,43,47,50,74,86,121,124,139,142,159).

There is numerous references to “The entrance chant” or “the communion chant”, or “the offertory chant”. Check out some of the GIRM references above.

This seems to imply (to me, at least) that my theory in #3 above is correct, because it doesn’t imply that the chant is one of the songs that may be sung at the following times, but that it is the normal thing to be sung, and any other song (especially a non-chant) is a substitution for the proper chant. This also to give a priority to the propers, and chant in general.

Conclusion:
I’m not proposing that we sing them in their fullness in every parish right away. Just that we start using them in some way.

**If someone wants a crash course in reading gregorian chant notation, I can do it via PM, provided you already know how to read regular music. Really. I’m pretty sure I can. PM me to start! It’s not hard. **

It can be as simple as getting the text and singing it to psalm tones. Any choir should be able to learn an english text sung to a psalm tone in less than 5 minutes. If you want to do this, but don’t know how or don’t know where to start, it’s not hard. PM me, and I can help you. I’ll find everything you need.

Maybe after that, you could start using them using simple but slightly harder melodies from the simple propers project (believe it or not, they really aren’t paying me for every mention of them. I really just think it is that good. )

After a while, they could try singing some from the graduale simplex.

Maybe if they get good, they could start singing some things from the Graduale Romanum or Gregorian Missal.

I know this is not as clear cut as I’d like, but this was convincing to me when I was on the fence, and I hope some of you understand where I’m coming from, even if you don’t agree.

 

[TheMc]

The thread I started, “Music in the Mass,” has spun off in all sorts of unintended directions. I thought my original question was simple enough: Is there any discussion about returning to the use of plain chant in the Mass rather than contemporary music?

Perhaps the question should have been: Is there any discussion AMONG THE BISHOPS about returning to the use of plain chant in the Mass? Also, where do the present day Benedictines and Cistercians stand on this issue? (I always viewed them as the guardians of plain chant in the liturgy.) Is sacred music a dead issue in th Catholic Church?

Well, perhaps it’s time for me to end this “thread” from my end. Bye.

Victor,

Don’t leave!!

Yes, I believe some bishops are trying to bring it back. Recently, my diocese had a chant workshop where he celebrated the NO Mass in latin, chanting everything, and the workshop participants making up the schola for the Mass, chanting everything for the Mass.

Now for lent, our Sunday Music lineup looked like this at the cathedral:

• Directly before the hymn: the chanted introit of the day
• Hymn (might be based on the introit or the readings. Didn’t check.)
• Sung/chanted Psalm
• Chanted Prayers of the faithful
• Chant and Choral music during the offertory (the offertory takes a while at the cathedral)
• Chanted Sanctus
• Chanted Memorial Acc.
• a WONDERFUL polyphonic Agnus Dei (next week, it’s going to be a byrd agnus dei)
• Another responsorial psalm sung during communion
• Recessional Hymn
• Also, Bishop Chanted 80-90% of the celebrant’s prayers, besides the canon (maybe at easter…)

If that isn’t trying to get chant to come back, I don’t know what is. God Bless my bishop!

 

[pnewton]

If people prefer the usual OCP elevator music, they need to be gradually educated beyond it. Most school children would prefer to stay in the comfort of their own grade level, but they’ll never learn anything except laziness if they don’t move on to higher things.

I do not know the value of calling people who do not prefer the same music as we do children or lazy.

I voted the last option in the poll that was merged here. I simply do not see the value of making a ig fuss over this issue. I prefer to meditate on the value of 1 Corinthians 12 as it applies to our differences. In the end Mass is not about how we feel. In our weakness, it is okay though to do the best to make Mass the most conducive to worship as possible. This judgement is always best made at the local level, as each parish is different.

 

[Bbigam]

I voted for more traditional music - chant, antiphons, etc. But I also do like singing the really good vernacular hymns - with the organ, not piano. “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence” is a favorite. I’d love to see a mix of Latin and vernacular, propers and hymns. But not much of the OCP type stuff!

Maybe something like this (using all the propers from Graduale Romanum):
Chanted Latin Introit by the choir, followed by a traditional vernacular hymn sung by all if the procession is long
Chanted Kyrie in Greek responsorially led by choir
Alternating Latin Gloria, polyphony by the choir and plainchant by the congregation
(Readings in the vernacular, at least Gospel chanted on major feast days)
Gradual chanted in Latin by choir (instead of responsorial Psalm)
Creed recited or chanted in English by all (maybe Latin on special occasions)
Proper Offertory chanted by the choir in Latin from Graduale Romanum
Sanctus and Angus Dei chanted in Latin by all
Proper Latin Communion chant by the choir, followed sometimes by a vernacular hymn by all, sometimes another chant in Latin by the choir
Hymn sung by all for the recessional, sometimes Latin, sometimes English

 

[TheMc]

I voted for more traditional music - chant, antiphons, etc. But I also do like singing the really good vernacular hymns - with the organ, not piano. “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence” is a favorite. I’d love to see a mix of Latin and vernacular, propers and hymns. But not much of the OCP type stuff!

Maybe something like this (using all the propers from Graduale Romanum):
Chanted Latin Introit by the choir, followed by a traditional vernacular hymn sung by all if the procession is long
Chanted Kyrie in Greek responsorially led by choir
Alternating Latin Gloria, polyphony by the choir and plainchant by the congregation
(Readings in the vernacular, at least Gospel chanted on major feast days)
Gradual chanted in Latin by choir (instead of responsorial Psalm)
Creed recited or chanted in English by all (maybe Latin on special occasions)
Proper Offertory chanted by the choir in Latin from Graduale Romanum
Sanctus and Angus Dei chanted in Latin by all
Proper Latin Communion chant by the choir, followed sometimes by a vernacular hymn by all, sometimes another chant in Latin by the choir
Hymn sung by all for the recessional, sometimes Latin, sometimes English

Hmmm… I’ve never heard something like that for the gloria. Sounds interesting.
I think this sounds like an ideal parish lineup, certainly in keeping with GIRM 41! I wish I heard the gospel chanted more often. One priest new I knew, during his year of deaconate, would do it for all the big Masses in the Diocese that year!

I would also like to hear the other readings chanted once a while (maybe easter, christmas, Holy thursday, and pentecost?). Other than that, sounds like a great lineup!

 

[Evrlsting_Gospl]

Follow the following links and look under the Music sections:

A vast resource of Biblical information, use it, share it, freely you have received, freely give:
Pearl Trees Of Life:
www.pearltrees.com/awhn

 

[Bbigam]

Hmmm… I’ve never heard something like that for the gloria. Sounds interesting.
I think this sounds like an ideal parish lineup, certainly in keeping with GIRM 41! I wish I heard the gospel chanted more often. One priest new I knew, during his year of deaconate, would do it for all the big Masses in the Diocese that year!

I would also like to hear the other readings chanted once a while (maybe easter, christmas, Holy thursday, and pentecost?). Other than that, sounds like a great lineup!

Mind you, I’ve never been to a Mass quite like this myself, but I would love to. The Opening Mass of the National Prayer Vigil for Life at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in DC on Jan. 23 had a lot of these elements, though - including the Gloria just like I just described it. Beautiful.

Yeah, I’d like to hear all the readings chanted at least on occasion. The very top-ranked days are the Triduum, Christmas, Epiphany, Ascension, and Pentecost. That would be a good start. (I suppose chanting the Passion on Good Friday and all the OT readings at the Easter Vigil isn’t very realistic, though. So maybe all on Holy Thursday, Epistle and Gospel at the Easter Vigil, and all on Easter Sunday and the other four days.)

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

Gradual: This is the Day which the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it

Christians to the Paschal Victim (Victimae Paschali Laudes)

In an ideal world, this is what most catholics would hear on Resurrection/Easter Sunday in an Ordinary form mass as the Gradual and Sequence. These two examples are sung by lutherans, oddly enough.

And perhaps a gloria more like this (though this is actually for feasts of confessors and is mislabeled as nativity)

Thus the great wave that will someday take hold and change the face of our music has yet to begin and but one can imagine someday this majesty will be realized.

I’ll be here quietly in the wait, ready to ride the wave.

 

[Canto]

Vat II said Gregorian Chant should be given PRINCIPIEM place in liturgical services.

Principiem most literally translates as first.

How many parishes give G-chant first place, as Vat II decreed?

Post Vat II doc Musicam Sacram states:

1. The reasonable expectation is that in welcoming and carrying out these norms pastors, composers, and the faithful, will strive with one accord to achieve the genuine purpose of sacred music, “which is the glory of God and the sanctification of the faithful.”

[not the faithful’s entertainment]

a) Music is “sacred” insofar as it is composed for the celebration of divine worship and possesses integrity of form.

[composed for the celebration of divine worship and not for the radio]

b) The term “sacred music” here includes: Gregorian chant (cantus), the several styles of polyphony, both ancient and modern; sacred music for organ and for other **permitted **instruments, and the sacred, liturgical or religious, music (cantus) of the people.

[Having posters on these forums over the years talk of hearing Kumbaya, Sound of Silence, Blowing in the Wind, the Rose etc at Mass; how do these songs constitute the sacred liturgical or sacred relgious music of the United States?]

Great thread.

 

[pnewton]

Vat II said Gregorian Chant should be given PRINCIPIEM place in liturgical services.

Principiem most literally translates as first.

How many parishes give G-chant first place, as Vat II decreed?
.

How many* parishes*? You are giving an opinion about what is meant by this. How many parishes house the seat of the bishop and are first in the diocese? One, maybe two. Our Cathedral has active Gregorian chant, making Gregorian chant principiem in our diocese, from a certain point of view.

If every bishop in the country and pretty much most in the world disagreed with my interpretation of a Church directive, I think I would question my own interpretation before I would question every bishop an almost every priest.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

The less music, the better, IMO. I prefer weekday Masses because I am distracted by music. I like to focus on the elements of the Mass itself, not the decorations with music.

And I normally LOVE music and listen to it all the time. But the music at Mass just interferes with my prayers.

 

[Edward_H]

Hi. This question might be under the level of this particular thread.

I am looking for perhaps an article that describes improvements to music in Mass. I remember hearing a great interview with someone on EWTN many months ago where the person interviewed ran down a list of suggestions that would help refine music in the Mass.

Some of the suggestions

• don’t announce the hymn, its number in the hymnal, etc, as the mere announcement is a distraction to the Mass, almost like a commercial break, calling undue attention to the hymm. It then is no longer an integral part of the Mass.
• don’t practice or try to train up the congregation just before Mass.

I can’t remember any others…but is someone here familiar with a deeper treatment of this topic, perhaps something on the web?

Thank you.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

How many* parishes*? You are giving an opinion about what is meant by this. How many parishes house the seat of the bishop and are first in the diocese? One, maybe two. Our Cathedral has active Gregorian chant, making Gregorian chant principiem in our diocese, from a certain point of view.

If every bishop in the country and pretty much most in the world disagreed with my interpretation of a Church directive, I think I would question my own interpretation before I would question every bishop an almost every priest.

That’s the thing about VII documents. They can pretty much be interpreted any way you want them. Want drums? All it says are “appropriate instruments” or something like that. Some people will say drums aren’t appropriate and some will say they are. Want Gregorian chant? It has first place (which is my belief, of course). Others will say that pride of place means you store it on a shelf like a trophy. Latin? Latin is to be preserved in the Mass. But then only if the people can do it. And so on…

So, without looking at earlier documents there’s no way of really understanding what those documents mean. It’s 1984. Double-speak!

 

[pnewton]

So, without looking at earlier documents there’s no way of really understanding what those documents mean. It’s 1984. Double-speak!

I have a great idea. Why don’t we just listening to our bishops and start acting like sheep instead of second-guessing them at every turn. FYI - Your 1984 insult is not applicable. I used the plain meaning of the text as much as the poster before me did. There was not “doublespeak”. I recommend you might want to read the book to understand the term better. In 1984, doublespeak was when one said something to mean the opposite. “Opposite” too is a term that is good to know. It is frequently misused here to mean, “something I don’t agree with.”

What’s next? Nazi references? BTW - I have read every document on the subject that is in effect multiple times, as well as pastoral letters like Sing to the Lord from the USCCB. I am well aware of the context, which is precisely why I understand where the bishops are coming from.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Okay. In better words, then, very…vague. Better? And actually, a person who is very, very pro-Vatican II (with a degree in theology) agreed with me on this point. I’m not saying whether he is right or wrong in it, but just that it’s not just us “Trads” who have seen this in the Vatican II documents.