MERGED: Standing From The Peace Of Christ Until Everybody Has Received Holy Communion. Why?

[iloveangels]

Just want to say I loved all the changes in the New Reformed Liturgy in the New Roman Missal at Sunday’s Mass this morning (First Sunday of Advent).

We Kneeled for the Consecration as usual. Yet from the exchange of the Peace of Christ until all 800 plus of the congregation had finished receiving the Blessed Sacrament we were instructed to stand in unison solidarity. No explanation was given except that has been stated. People in the Congregation who received the Blessed Sacrament returning to their pews were not allowed to kneel and pray in adoration until all had received.

Personally; I have no problem standing in solidarity. However; what symbolic profound sense of liturgical spirituality is embraced by not letting communicants of the Blessed Sacrament from kneeling in adoration and thanks to Jesus after they have received and returned to their pews?

Instead we are told to stand the entire time while everybody has received. Only after Everybody has received Holy Communion are we allowed to reflect in a more humble prone posture.

Is this the same for American Catholics?

NO. It’s not even the same for some Canadian Catholics. You are suffering retribution for the translations. They cannot stop you from kneeling.

 

[Marybeloved]

Marybeloved, Jesus is present in the Eucharist no matter how you feel. Nothing could undermine his real presence in the Eucharist. I know you know these things.

Please consider that the reason you might be having such a strong reaction to what others do is because you are paying attention to what others do. One who does not concern themselves with others cannot be offended by others. Yes, Christ’s presence is real in the Eucharist, and when we eat his flesh and drink his blood, he is present in our mouth and stomach. Try to remember as well, Christ’s promise to us in John’s Gospel. If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. (John 14:23)God has promised to make a home inside of you. No one can ever take this away from you. You can pray to the Holy Spirit who dwells right inside of your body, any time, any place, standing or sitting, driving the car or while you are in the dentists chair. You have only to turn inward, and God is there, inside of you.

This is no less real than the Eucharist. It is a truth revealed to us by Jesus. The only one who can take that away from you is you yourself.

-Tim-

Thanks for the advice, Tim. I’m not encouraging a revolt against the Bishops, just letting them know how negatively it impacts the faithfull’s adoration of God, so that the Bishops themselves can consider lifting this requirement. We must obey, but we have no obligation not to tell the truth in love, even to our superiors.

Of course Christ is present and cannot be made absent by what we do----That’s precisely the whole point of the complaints! He’s present! We don’t want to be on our feet at the time, but on our knees. In my country, people prostrate like Muslims before the monstrance. Of course, perhaps in time, the new gesture will take on a reverential meaning- I don’t know. I meant that the appreciation that it is truly Christ there will be undermined by the postures we assume in his presence.

And I was not focused on what “others” do- I was focused on whose presence they do it in, plus their own deep sense of piety to which I can relate.

And I find it curious that the Bishops picked the time when the church is attempting more real “solidarity” in terms of uniform words and meaning (translations) to introduce a custom that sets the Canadians at Mass apart from all other Latin rite mass attendants.

 

[Marybeloved]

Hey :newidea: I just thought of a very pious reason why the Bishops may have decided this!
At communion, most people who don’t communicate sit while those who communicate walk up to receive. Perhaps the Bishops thought that no one should focus on anything but the Eucharist while the Lord is exposed and placed on people’s mouths, whether or not they actually receive him themselves, until, the Lord is covered up again (after everyone has received).

At this point, those who receive can kneel and pray and those who did not can sit and pray. What I think should be enforced to emphasize this is silence during the whole time and slow quiet reverential song during the kneeling. I think allowance should be made for large groups. If they cannot all receive in under two/three minutes, if there aren’t enough people to give the communion to large groups, then surely, communicants must be allowed to promptly return to kneeling as soon as they get back to the Pews.

They can use the two/three minutes standing meditating on the second miracle of the mass- Which is the Lord feeding allthe faithful together with the one bread that is himself, when they are together gathered at the alter, just as he did with the five thousand! Then once they kneel they can focus on the Lord personally present in one’s soul…Hey, it could work! Three different gifts from the one gift in the mass- perhaps the point is to make sure the faithful realize all three beautiful things our Lord is doing! After all, even at the alter one would still be focussing on the Lord who is the same as the one in one’s soul. Perhaps this is the solidarity they speak about. The communion makes us one because we receive only one body, all of us together! In one, it’s the real presence and communion shared as a group that is our focus, and in another one-to-one, the Lord in my soul. If I were an Orthodox Catholic Canadia trying to come to terms to deal with this, this is how I would reconcile it with my piety, reverence, worship and conviction in the real presence.

Three ways of worshiping Christ in one mass:

• sacrifice (consecration and lifting up)
  -Feeding of the faithful with one body- (reverence and thanksgiving as “we”, not “I”)
  -Personal “secret chamber” worship.

Though perhaps it would be better if they had said that everyone should kneel and focus on the Lord being received at the alter, until everyone has received- then those who did not communicate can sit and participate in slow reverential, quiet songs (with minimal instrumentals) full of liturgical and faith meaning, like the Anima Christi or “Soul of my Savior”- My absolute favorite prayer/song, and the communicants can continue speaking to the Lord on their knees.

Peace.

 

[WoundedIcon]

Does anyone know if this is permissible? I know the bishops can have us either stand or kneel, but have no idea how to (quickly) find out which one is enforced here. I just heard about it today and it’s something I’d like to do, most people stand at the parishes around here but I have seen folks kneeling. I thought it was curious then it slipped my mind.

 

[tbcrawford]

We have always knelt down at any parish here in UK after Lamb of God I thought everyone did that.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Every church I’ve attended here in Massachusetts kneels after the Agnus Dei.

 

[IrishRush]

We kneel at mine here in Chicago.

 

[ChadS]

I’m in the Diocese of Cleveland also and I asked my pastor about this same issue also. He said that it’s up to each Bishop to decide whether to kneel after the Agnus Dei or not. I guess at some point the Bishop of Cleveland made the decision not to kneel and nobody has changed it since.

I have seen many people who will kneel after the Agnus Dei in Cleveland and nobody seems to look askance at them.

ChadS

 

[catharina]

We have always knelt down at any parish here in UK after Lamb of God I thought everyone did that.

Ditto for every church I’ve been to
in Northern California, including San Francisco.

 

[silicasandra]

In the Diocese of Erie, PA (at least when I lived there), the norm was to remain standing - which confused quite a few students at my college who came from the Diocese of Pittsburgh, where the norm is kneeling.

 

[WoundedIcon]

I’m in the Diocese of Cleveland also and I asked my pastor about this same issue also. He said that it’s up to each Bishop to decide whether to kneel after the Agnus Dei or not. I guess at some point the Bishop of Cleveland made the decision not to kneel and nobody has changed it since.

I have seen many people who will kneel after the Agnus Dei in Cleveland and nobody seems to look askance at them.

ChadS

I worry about that though. It seems that it would be disobedience to the legitimately established norms of the bishop to kneel, and that would at least be a venial sin, right?

 

[silicasandra]

I worry about that though. It seems that it would be disobedience to the legitimately established norms of the bishop to kneel, and that would at least be a venial sin, right?

I would think if you know which one your bishop has established as a norm you should do that. If you’re not sure, do what you feel called to do until you do find out.

I think the important thing is not assuming the non-normative posture thinking you “know better” than the bishop.

 

[JGMendes4049]

Write to the Office for Worship and ask. I have taken the liberty of writing their address here:

Office for Worship
1404 East Ninth Street, Sixth Floor
Cleveland, Ohio 44114

In the dioceses of the United States of America, the bishop may determine the posture after the Agnus Dei. Not all bishops exercise this faculty. The default is kneeling, in the United States of America.

 

[fall_fox]

The Agnus Dei has always been the signal to kneel when it is finished, even
pre-Vatican II. I just don’t understand the thinking of the Bishops that change these long time signs of devotion to our Lord. Another is bowing instead of genuflecting, what pray tell is wrong with genuflecting? I still remember when the Blessed Sacrament was exposed we would genuflect, going down on both knees then bowing a profound bow. It was always understood that if you had a physical challenge, you did the best you could. I feel that the people watch their Priest and take cues from him, that is why I think it is important for him to genuflect regardless what the GIRM says. This is one of the few times I would recommend going against the GIRM.
At the sound of HIS name every knee in heaven, on earth, and under the earth should BEND.
At a parish I frequent other than my own, the Priest, when the name of our Lord is mentioned he does a shallow bow, it’s funny all the people there are doing the same, I wonder why.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Just a week or so before that directive was issued several years ago, I talked about this subject with the head honcho at the diocesan office of worship. The nun running that office said that the Archbishop would not be issuing any such such directive.
I have got to wonder, who is running the show in our diocese.

That said, the earlier quote from Cardinal Arinze makes it pretty clear that the diocesan bishop or his minions are exceeding their authority in this matter with their demands for rigid uniformity of posture.
I choose to follow Rome rather than my bishop.

BTW, there are folks other than at Holy Rosary that kneel after the Agnus Dei.

You know what, now that you mention it, I remember kneeling after the Agnus Dei at St. Stanislaus as well. If there are others, I haven’t been to them, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Immaculate Heart does (only been to a Latin Mass there).

 

[fall_fox]

I worry about that though. It seems that it would be disobedience to the legitimately established norms of the bishop to kneel, and that would at least be a venial sin, right?

fall fox

It would most definitely not be a sin ! ! !

I’m sure it would never happen, but I think it would be great if the Church would provide a kneeler near every Eucharistic Minister so that if you would rather kneel to receive our Lord you could do so or you could receive standing, Just a thought.

 

[YADA]

As a member of the faithful living and worshiping in the Archdiocese of Portland in Oregon … I follow the instructions of my Bishop …in humble obedience …

And that instruction is to remain standing after the Great Amen - and the reception of the Eucharist - after we receive the Eucharist - we were instructed to take whatever posture was most prayerful - standing, sitting, kneeling

From our Bishop: archdpdx.org/liturgy/girm.html

#43 The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance Chant (or gathering song)…until the end of the collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith, and the Prayer of the Faithful. From the invitation, Orate, fratres (pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.
Standing after invitation, “pray brethren” and before the people answer
“May the Lord receive the sacrifice…” is new in the revised GIRM.
In the dioceses of the United States, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.
For parishes and institutions where kneelers are not yet installed, and for liturgies that take place in a building other than a church, catechesis will need to be given regarding the profound bow.
The faithful kneel after Agnus Dei unless the diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.
In the Archdiocese of Portland, the faithful stand after the Lamb of God.

Bolding in blue mine

It is easy to become a cafeteria catholic … whether its over great things like disagreement with the Bishop or Church on same sex marriage or abortion … or small things - like following the instruction of Bishop on postures during Mass … when the GIRM clearly gives the Bishop the right to “determine otherwise”

I have a hard enough time living the best Christian life I can without setting myself against my Bishop’s clear instruction …Pax Christe

 

[Brendan]

Rome has delegated permission to set that particular posture to the local bishop ( in the US)

GIRM 43 … In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason… Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

Note the bolded part.

I used to travel somewhat regularly to Cleveland on business. If possible, I would attend daily Mass at a church near my company’s Cleveland office.

The bishop of Cleveland had elected to have the faithful stand after the Agnus Dei until the person returns to their pew after recieving Holy Communion. At which point, the person is free to sit, kneel or stand as they see fit.

Since this is a directive from Rome that allows the bishop to do this, obedience does enter into the picture.

I would have much preferred to kneel after the Agnus Dei, but to do so would have been in defiance of Rome’s privlidge of specifically granting authority to the local bishop in that particular instance.

 

[roadsend]

As a member of the faithful living and worshiping in the Archdiocese of Portland in Oregon … I follow the instructions of my Bishop …in humble obedience …

.

Feel free to follow any instructions that you wish.

I feel free to follow the instructions given by Rome.

“The mens [reasoning] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.”

At least here we have the right to use our conscience to follow whomever we choose. Ain’t America great.

 

[fbl9]

Our bishop has decreed that everyone stand after the Doxology until everyone has received Communion. That goes against my conscience. When the Host is elevated for adoration, I kneel. After receiving Holy Communion, I kneel again. I hope the Lord isn’t counting this as an act of disobedience against the bishop’s directive. Other dioceses haven’t changed to this idea of standing to show reverence.

When else do we stand during mass? At the reading of Jesus"s words (Christ present to us in His word)