Miami archbishop: raise the minimum wage [CC]

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shockerfan said:
trite. I don’t know about the Irish government, but in the US, pretty much every time the government implements a solution, it causes many others. Look no further than Obamacare. The overall cost of insurance rates and deductibles is going up for most people, and businesses with just under 50 employees are avoiding getting to 50 to avoid the law. A few years ago the US passed a luxury tax on expensive boats. The result was a 70% drop in sales, and thousands of workers at boat factories lost their jobs.

Those here in the CAF that are debating with you are good people, and realize that their are consequences with the government does things like raise taxes, artificially raise labor costs, raise energy costs etc. There is a reason why with Obama being president the recovery is one of the slowest in history and the participation in the workforce is at a 35 year low.

First we need a healthy economy that will cause a growth in jobs, then wages will rise as employers compete for employees. Simply calling people who legitimately disagree with the best way to help the poor, “Cafeteria Catholics”, is ridiculous. Engage in debate, and avoid the “ad hominem” attacks.
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Excellent post, Shockerfan. I have been waiting to see if anyone posts a well-though response to your points. So far, I have seen only ad hominems.

Ishii
 
Silvio_Dante said:
You put the Market and its poisonous effects ahead of what the Church and the Pope teaches. That’s Cafeteria Catholicism. Your choice…
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Silvio, you didn’t answer any of Shockerfan’s excellent points. Are you aware of the effect raising the minimum wage will have on the unemployment rate, e.g. ? (hint: it will go up - especially among minorities).

Ishii
 
shockerfan said:
The problem is that people don’t put their money where their mouth is. Instead of supporting the local small business, they go to the big box store.
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I know, to me thats the only thing that kind of makes distributism and subsidiarity hard. Chesterton was writing in the early 20th century when things were still very local, and even big business seemed more local, and in most cases wasn’t global with few exceptions. I wish in a way that there was some way to make capitalism more fair and equal without resorting to socialist measures.

Also, in regards to box stores, sadly we can’t really do without them anymore. They keep undercutting prices until they can’t go any lower. My biggest worry is that at some point there won’t be a bottom. Right now China is where a lot of plastic **** is made, and eventually this will move at some point to Africa or the Middle East, because wages will go up. I wonder what will happen then? Anyway, the Big Box stores sadly have better deals in most cases. Sure people still want quality stuff, but for your everyday items, a Walmart or target can’t be beat.
 
Silvio_Dante said:
You put the Market and its poisonous effects ahead of what the Church and the Pope teaches. That’s Cafeteria Catholicism. Your choice…
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I read what the Pope writes and what the Catechism teaches. Sorry, but the only thing that is infallible is that we help the poor. HOW we help the poor is debatable among Catholics of good intent.
 
ishii said:
Silvio, you didn’t answer any of Shockerfan’s excellent points. Are you aware of the effect raising the minimum wage will have on the unemployment rate, e.g. ? (hint: it will go up - especially among minorities).

Ishii
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Thanks Ishii. What I have found is that the left leaning posters here paint with a broad brush. I have listed how Obama’s policies slow market recovery, keep participation in the workforce at record lows by raising healthcare costs, taxes, regulatory costs and labor costs. I have done this on multiple threads. NOBODY has tried to debate those individual points, they just continue to make broad brush statements or, like Silvio Dante, resort to ad hominems and accuse me of not being a faithful Catholic.
 
HappyCatholic01 said:
My job is to care and provide for my family, which requires of a balance of earning enough so that I can provide for my children’s education while being home with them as much as I can. In short, we should strive as men to emulate St. Joseph.

People who choose not to work and use the excuse of wanting to be near their family are serving no one, in a positive manner.

Are you one of those?
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I work 37 hours a week and enjoy a very healthy work/life balance, thanks to my Trade Union and humane, Government employer…🙂
 
ishii said:
Silvio, you didn’t answer any of Shockerfan’s excellent points. Are you aware of the effect raising the minimum wage will have on the unemployment rate, e.g. ? (hint: it will go up - especially among minorities).

Ishii
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Go and show me how the minimum wage has effected our unemployment rate in Ireland…
 
shockerfan said:
I read what the Pope writes and what the Catechism teaches. Sorry, but the only thing that is infallible is that we help the poor. HOW we help the poor is debatable among Catholics of good intent.
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Choosing from the menu as you see fit…
 
I completely agree that the minimum wage needs to be raised. I know a few people who work minimum wage jobs and I tell you, they really struggle to keep their family taken care of. I feel badly for them.
 
shockerfan said:
Silvio, people on this thread realize you have no facts to support your position. Keep up the good slander!
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You’ve admitted yourself that you pick and choose the parts of being a Catholic that suits your lifestyle. Your choice…
 
Holly3278 said:
I completely agree that the minimum wage needs to be raised. I know a few people who work minimum wage jobs and I tell you, they really struggle to keep their family taken care of. I feel badly for them.
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You are not alone…🙂
 
Silvio_Dante said:
You’ve admitted yourself that you pick and choose the parts of being a Catholic that suits your lifestyle. Your choice…
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From the CCC:

2434 A just wage is the legitimate fruit of work. To refuse or withhold it can be a grave injustice.220 In determining fair pay both the needs and the contributions of each person must be taken into account. "Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural and spiritual level, taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good."221 Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages.

From what I have read, you disagree with the part that is underlined. I’m all for higher wages, profit sharing, etc., without government dictate because such an edict does not take into account the underlined part.
 
Silvio_Dante said:
You’ve admitted yourself that you pick and choose the parts of being a Catholic that suits your lifestyle. Your choice…
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:rolleyes:

People here are simply thinking through the implications of raising the minimum wage, and what exactly constitutes a living/fair wage.
 
shockerfan said:
From the CCC:

2434 A just wage is the legitimate fruit of work. To refuse or withhold it can be a grave injustice.220 In determining fair pay both the needs and the contributions of each person must be taken into account. "Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural and spiritual level, taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good."221 Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages.

From what I have read, you disagree with the part that is underlined. I’m all for higher wages, profit sharing, etc., without government dictate because such an edict does not take into account the underlined part.
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Why would I disagree with that? It’s a rock of common sense.

It’s certain Catholics here who are trying to justify slave wage rates as somehow adding to the common good…
 
Silvio_Dante said:
Why would I disagree with that? It’s a rock of common sense.

It’s certain Catholics here who are trying to justify slave wage rates as somehow adding to the common good…
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Again, should the 17 year old HS student who is living at home, saving for college, has the same “living wage” requirement as a single mom with 4 kids?

Isn’t it “social justice” to pay the same for equal work? The laws in western nations also agree with this as you can’t discriminate on age, gender, family status and so on.
 
Silvio_Dante said:
Why would I disagree with that? It’s a rock of common sense.

It’s certain Catholics here who are trying to justify slave wage rates as somehow adding to the common good…
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This seems to be the first post you have made a statement that would make a reasonable person believe you actually care about the role and productivity of each employee and the state of the business. Thats all people here have been arguing about, only to be greeted by your judgmental replies (like your last sentence). Trying arguing with details and facts, you might even persuade another person to accept your perspective. Engage in an actual discussion and leave personal attacks (and passing judgment) out of it.
 
shockerfan said:
This seems to be the first post you have made a statement that would make a reasonable person believe you actually care about the role and productivity of each employee and the state of the business. Thats all people here have been arguing about, only to be greeted by your judgmental replies (like your last sentence). Trying arguing with details and facts, you might even persuade another person to accept your perspective. Engage in an actual discussion and leave personal attacks (and passing judgment) out of it.
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Also known as Ad Homiem - attack the person instead of refuting the facts/opinions.

Simply calling people “Cafeteria Catholics” because other variables in the equation are considered won’t win you many friends.
 
Guys, I’ve been as guilty of choosing from the menu aswell. No one is ammune from it. The difference is I call myself on it. You folks seem to think its ok to justify paying peanuts and be at one with Church teaching…
 
Silvio_Dante said:
Work life balance…
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What does that even mean? Did St. Joseph only work 40 hrs a week? Are priests priests only 40 hrs a week?

You are a unionized government worker. Of course you oppose working more than 37 hrs a week while calling for more money.

Peace

Tim
 
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