Miami archbishop: raise the minimum wage [CC]

[Tomdstone]

So, if a father of six is flipping hamburgers at McD’s, should he get paid more than the 16-year old that still lives in his parent’s home? Should wage be based upon need or upon productivity?

I don’t have all the answers, but I don’t see how you can expect a father of several children to survive in the USA at $10 per hour. The local college here has tuition with room and board (required the first year) at $60,000 per year which would be more than you could make working 40 hours per week at a job all year long with no vacation. Then you also have to buy food. In the USA, there is a case of a man starving to death who stole one slice of pizza and he was sentenced to life in prison. That’s how the Americans treat the starving masses who are trying to get by at $10 per hour.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Your answer proves you know little about the struggles of businesses. They often operate on very small profit margins. The owners aren’t wading in gravy and refusing to part with their largess to the poor workers. The increase in minimum wage represents a big challenge to many small businesses not because of “trickle down” but because of government getting involved. When people who no little to nothing of how businesses run start meddling then nothing good happens.

Many McD’s are franchise owned, not owned by a mega rich CEO. In any event, the issue is much more complicated than you make it out to be. Its not a matter of “spreading the wealth around” as you imply.

Business have no choice but to down size or go out of business altogether - that is the result of increase costs associated with the higher payroll costs. They could raise their prices and hope that people still buy their product. Not a good choice though.

Ishii

So IOW small business hasn’t been trickled down upon either.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Oh that’s easy, Sy Noe. There are moral issues - such as the sanctity of life, and then there are prudential issues such as the tax rate, minimum wage and such. Good honest Catholics can disagree on the latter issues, but on the former, there is no room for disagreement. That is why they are called non-negotiables.

Ishii

Ishii, I undersrand you might indeed speak a faithful Catholic’s language and understanding of issues on a Catholic forum such as this. But I’m sure you understand as well not everyone is Catholic, let alone “good” ones as you use the term.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I don’t have all the answers, but I don’t see how you can expect a father of several children to survive in the USA at $10 per hour. The local college here has tuition with room and board (required the first year) at $60,000 per year which would be more than you could make working 40 hours per week at a job all year long with no vacation. Then you also have to buy food. In the USA, there is a case of a man starving to death who stole one slice of pizza and he was sentenced to life in prison. That’s how the Americans treat the starving masses who are trying to get by at $10 per hour.

Well said.

 

[ishii]

So IOW small business hasn’t been trickled down upon either.

What is trickle down ? I find that to be a cliche usually used by people who don’t know much about business or economics.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

Ishii, I undersrand you might indeed speak a faithful Catholic’s language and understanding of issues on a Catholic forum such as this. But I’m sure you understand as well not everyone is Catholic, let alone “good” ones as you use the term.

Not everyone believes in the inherent dignity of all human life either. Some people are racists. It is very sad. You might believe that a man has a right to make $78 an hour flipping burgers in New York so he can support his family and send his kids to private school. Living wage, right? And maybe you think that right is equivalent to the right of a man to not get lynched because he’s black or the right of a baby not to get snuffed out inside of the womb. Not everyone has a grasp of morality and not everyone understands the difference between prudential issues and serious moral issues. You seem to have demonstrated that

To put it another way sy noe: you go March for the right of a man to make a $78 an hour working at McDonalds. I will march for the right of babies to not get vacuumed out of a womb because they were conceived as a girl and not a boy.

Ishii

 

[Suudy]

I don’t have all the answers, but I don’t see how you can expect a father of several children to survive in the USA at $10 per hour.

But apparently you think the answer is a higher minimum wage, which when comparing actual individuals seems hardly fair. Either it is “equal pay for equal work,” which means paying a 16 year old kid still living at home the same wage a father of six, or you pay a “living wage” which means paying that same 16 year old less than the father of six for the same work.

The left needs to make up its mind. It’s either “equal pay for equal work” or “living wage.” Which is it?

The point, is that right now I’m actually barred from paying a father of six a living wage unless I pay everyone else in the same position a comparable salary. If I were to try and pay a father of six say $25/hour but pay that 16 year old $7/hour for the same work, there would be a lawsuit. The minimum wage law and equal pay for equal work laws push and pull employers in ways that make it impossible for them to meet the needs of their employees while still remaining competitive and meeting the bottom line.

The local college here has tuition with room and board (required the first year) at $60,000 per year which would be more than you could make working 40 hours per week at a job all year long with no vacation. Then you also have to buy food.

Then go to a cheaper college. My alma mater charges $24k/year for residents and $36k/year for non-residents (including room and board). Or better yet, go to a trade school and learn a trade and make more than $60k/year quickly. My wife’s cousin finished his 2-year welding degree and is now making $55k/year as a welder at 21 years old. No need for a $60k/year degree.

There are other ways to make a good, decent living without a college degree. Another example. One of my good buddies’ godson recently finished an 12 year stint in the Navy. He waffled on re-enlisting and decided to get out and get a job. He landed a job making $75k/year (plus commission if targets are hit) as a sales manager at a data warehousing company. No degree. No debt. But 12 years of solid training and experience.

In the USA, there is a case of a man starving to death who stole one slice of pizza and he was sentenced to life in prison. That’s how the Americans treat the starving masses who are trying to get by at $10 per hour.

Did he kill someone to get the pizza? Nobody is sentenced to life in prison for the theft of a slice of pizza. I’d like to see the story.

On a closing note, I’d like to refer you to other posts I’ve made on this subject. One with good links is:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12506545&postcount=17

The point is that very few actually live on minimum wage. Most people move up very soon. And a very large percentage of those making minimum wage are in households that make $50k or more per year. These aren’t the “starving masses who are trying to get by at $10 per hour.”

And more posts:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12701943&postcount=13
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12055061&postcount=21

In that, about 56% of all American household will at some point in their lives be in the top 10%. And that nearly nobody spends their entire career at the minimum wage.

And this ignores the impacts of minimum wage. I recently read Thomas Sowell’s Intellectuals and Race, and he pointed out that the last time the labor participation rate and unemployment rates of blacks was better or comparable to whites was just prior to the passage of the Davis-Bacon act. Sowell argues that minimum wage laws harmed blacks (and indeed, supporters of the act openly acknowledged its goal of pushing blacks out of jobs). Minimum wage laws do more than just mandate minimum pay for work. They also drive people out of work, and the people driven out are usually the least skilled and least qualified, making things worse for them.

 

[Tomdstone]

Did he kill someone to get the pizza? Nobody is sentenced to life in prison for the theft of a slice of pizza.

He did not hurt anyone, but I suppose you could say he threatened a group of children. He was sentenced to 25 years to life in prison for stealing one slice of pizza. He did have prior convictions and was sentenced under California three strikes law. He stole the pizza from a group of children on a pier in Redondo Beach.
articles.latimes.com/1995-03-03/local/me-38444_1_jerry-dewayne-williams

 

[estesbob]

He did not hurt anyone, but I suppose you could say he threatened a group of children. He was sentenced to 25 years to life in prison for stealing one slice of pizza. He did have prior convictions and was sentenced under California three strikes law. He stole the pizza from a group of children on a pier in Redondo Beach.
articles.latimes.com/1995-03-03/local/me-38444_1_jerry-dewayne-williams

There is no indication he was starving to death. The story does highlight, however, the absurdity of mandatory sentencing laws

 

[ucfengr]

I don’t have all the answers, but I don’t see how you can expect a father of several children to survive in the USA at $10 per hour. The local college here has tuition with room and board (required the first year) at $60,000 per year which would be more than you could make working 40 hours per week at a job all year long with no vacation. Then you also have to buy food. In the USA, there is a case of a man starving to death who stole one slice of pizza and he was sentenced to life in prison. That’s how the Americans treat the starving masses who are trying to get by at $10 per hour.

It’s not the employer’s fault that your hypothetical man has 10 kids that he’s trying to send to Harvard. I fail to see why it’s the employer’s responsibility to fix it. What’s next, the employer must buy the employee’s kids cars when they turn 16?

 

[shockerfan]

I don’t have all the answers, but I don’t see how you can expect a father of several children to survive in the USA at $10 per hour. The local college here has tuition with room and board (required the first year) at $60,000 per year which would be more than you could make working 40 hours per week at a job all year long with no vacation. Then you also have to buy food. In the USA, there is a case of a man starving to death who stole one slice of pizza and he was sentenced to life in prison. That’s how the Americans treat the starving masses who are trying to get by at $10 per hour.

A few points:

1. The colleges that I have researched (Ivy League included) offer need based assistance to poor students who academically qualify. In most cases room / board / tuition are free for poor families. That is the reason the tuition is $60,000 per year: Families with higher incomes pay $60K per year to cover those families who can’t pay that amount.
2. If you expect business, lets say McDonald’s, to pay a living wage to someone flipping burgers, then don’t be surprised when they buy automation to eliminate the need for a burger flipper requiring a living wage, because automation would be much cheaper. Actually, this is already happening as cashiers are being replaced by self-order kiosks, and automated burger machines are being tested.
3. Even the Catechism when talking about a just wage says that the health of the business and the worker’s contributions must be taken into account. Its unjust to a business owner to force them to pay $20+ per hour for a person adding only $10 per hour of value.

 

[pnewton]

I don’t have all the answers, …

I wish we had politicians with this much wisdom.

As to college, there are many avenues for the poor and needy to get an education. Our community college is very affordable, for example. Everyone is forced into economic choices. I think the bigger issue is Catholics, and others of faith, not applying basic moral principles to all issues. For example, the question should be, if you were one of the men or women working in one of these jobs, would you still think the minimum wage was correct, or would you think it was time to for it to be raised? That is a simple application of the Golden Rule. Catholic leaders are rightly concerned with the reality of market-based wages, as it has been resulting in a large and larger disparity of wealth every generation. We are going backwards in civilization toward a time of lords and serfs, at least in this one area.

 

[ishii]

I don’t have all the answers, but I don’t see how you can expect a father of several children to survive in the USA at $10 per hour. .

If you are a father of several children then you need to take responsibility for your children, not expect a business to pay you more than you’re worth just to make up for your poor choices.

I wish we had politicians with this much wisdom.

As to college, there are many avenues for the poor and needy to get an education. Our community college is very affordable, for example. Everyone is forced into economic choices. I think the bigger issue is Catholics, and others of faith, not applying basic moral principles to all issues. For example, the question should be, if you were one of the men or women working in one of these jobs, would you still think the minimum wage was correct, or would you think it was time to for it to be raised? That is a simple application of the Golden Rule. Catholic leaders are rightly concerned with the reality of market-based wages, as it has been resulting in a large and larger disparity of wealth every generation. We are going backwards in civilization toward a time of lords and serfs, at least in this one area.

Anyone who would suggest that we should force a mom and pop burger joint to pay a man $70 an hour because he has several children, lives in the city and needs to send his several children to private schools, is not in tough with reality.

I worked for minimum wage as a teenager ($3.35 / hr) and more recently worked a minimum wage job for some supplemental income (not main income) to pay off a bill. I can tell you that if the law had been in place at that time to force businesses to pay a much higher minimum wage (like $15 / hr) I would likely have not been hired and not been given the chance to get the supplemental income. I think this is something that well meaning Catholics do not consider when calling for an arbitrary increase in the minimum wage. They may have good intentions, but the effect could end up hurting people more than helping (e.g. if the increase in minimum wage results in fewer jobs overall for people, which it likely would).

Ishii

 

[Ender]

I think this is something that well meaning Catholics do not consider when calling for an arbitrary increase in the minimum wage. They may have good intentions, but the effect could end up hurting people more than helping (e.g. if the increase in minimum wage results in fewer jobs overall for people, which it likely would).

Here’s the point: the question of whether raising the minimum wage is a good or bad idea is ultimately an economic one. It has no moral dimension. The problem caused when a bishop offers his opinion on the subject is that it implies that the choice is moral rather than economic. It short circuits the real debate - which is an economic one - and coarsens the debate that follows by reducing it to the implication that those who disagree (with a bishop!!) are therefore doing something immoral

Ender

 

[ishii]

Here’s the point: the question of whether raising the minimum wage is a good or bad idea is ultimately an economic one. It has no moral dimension. The problem caused when a bishop offers his opinion on the subject is that it implies that the choice is moral rather than economic. It short circuits the real debate - which is an economic one - and coarsens the debate that follows by reducing it to the implication that those who disagree (with a bishop!!) are therefore doing something immoral

Ender

But would you agree that there is a moral component to wages in general? For example, paying people fairly for work performed, etc. ?

Ishii

 

[Ender]

But would you agree that there is a moral component to wages in general? For example, paying people fairly for work performed, etc. ?

I am very wary of assigning moral terms to things. I may behave unfairly in paying wages. I may behave immorally in my treatment of workers, but the fact that I can behave immorally in paying wages does not impart a moral aspect to economic concepts. I believe there are only a handful of political issues that include moral choices, and that handful does not include things like immigration, the minimum wage, or balancing the budget.

Ender

 

[sps49]

Here’s the point: the question of whether raising the minimum wage is a good or bad idea is ultimately an economic one. It has no moral dimension. The problem caused when a bishop offers his opinion on the subject is that it implies that the choice is moral rather than economic. It short circuits the real debate - which is an economic one - and coarsens the debate that follows by reducing it to the implication that those who disagree (with a bishop!!) are therefore doing something immoral

Ender

Agreed.

 

[sps49]

But would you agree that there is a moral component to wages in general? For example, paying people fairly for work performed, etc. ?

Ishii

There is more than one moral dimension to this. Some want a raise, some want a “living wage,” some want a “just wage.” The people who want this claim that it is the moral thing to do, because the outcome is just, and whatever effects that manifest are easily absorbed by society. My question is then this, since when is “the ends justifies the means‎” an acceptable moral principle? I see this as a form moral relativism, where some principles are more “moral” than others, and I am not in agreement with that strategy.

 

[stinkcat_14]

I am very wary of assigning moral terms to things. I may behave unfairly in paying wages. I may behave immorally in my treatment of workers, but the fact that I can behave immorally in paying wages does not impart a moral aspect to economic concepts. I believe there are only a handful of political issues that include moral choices, and that handful does not include things like immigration, the minimum wage, or balancing the budget.

Ender

I would argue that if some people were systematically discriminated against, then a minimum wage would be a moral issue and it would be morally appropropriate to institute a minimum wage. For example, suppose I hire someone to clean my house, I value the work at $15 an hour, but I can get away with paying $10 an hour. Is it moral to pay as little as I can get away with? Adam Smith seemed to have a problem with this and suggested that it is a tragedy that we pay our domestic help so little.

 

[pnewton]

I would argue that if some people were systematically discriminated against, then a minimum wage would be a moral issue and it would be morally appropropriate to institute a minimum wage. For example, suppose I hire someone to clean my house, I value the work at $15 an hour, but I can get away with paying $10 an hour. Is it moral to pay as little as I can get away with? Adam Smith seemed to have a problem with this and suggested that it is a tragedy that we pay our domestic help so little.

You raise an interesting question. What is a just wage, as that is a better moral question than others? I still think the Golden Rule is useful, as it usually is. Switching roles, what would you deem a just wage to be?

Any danger from injecting morality into this type of discussions pales in comparison with all the damage our modern world of amorality has wrought.