Michael Voris leaves out crucial information in "Vortex" episode

[commenter]

Thought the point of being Christian was to be united with God for eternity in heaven? I.e. Salvation from hell?

Christianity isn’t fire insurance!
It’s a loving relationship with a Person, that you can begin in this life, and have to a greater degree in heaven
Heaven is desireable for me, regardless of accommodations, only because God is there. The alternative is undesireable, for me, because of His absence.

Catholic Faith has the fullness of truth. I try to evangelize. But others respond to the measure of truth they have, and are saved. They may have a kind of relationship with God, though not recognize who He is, but respond to His love, with Him and those people in their life.

 

[Genesis315]

Here’s the letter from the Holy Office which addressed the Fr. Feeney issues.

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/appendixe.html

As I understand it, in a nutshell there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church is that communion of faith and charity, and without those, one cannot be saved. It is possible for faith and charity to exist outside the visibly delineated Church. Also, while there is no salvation outside the Church, everyone is given the means of partaking of that salvation.

Faith properly orders our relationship to God: "By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God. (CCC 143).

Because of this, faith is necessary for salvation:

CCC

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43

Faith is “a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed.” (CCC 150). In particular, this means faith in Christ, since Christ “is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one” (CCC 65); “what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son” (CCC 65, quoting St. John of the Cross).

Even if in good conscience, people in non-Christian religions cannot have faith–they simply do not believe what God has revealed. Their belief is merely “religious experience still in search of the absolute truth and still lacking assent to God who reveals himself” and therefore “the distinction between theological faith and belief in the other religions, must be firmly held.” (Dominus Iesus 7).

Since they lack faith, persons who remain in such a situation until death could not be saved. However, we do acknowledge that, for those in good conscience seeking to follow the truth, “in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him.” (CCC 848)

But even if one has faith in Christ, deliberately denying any revealed truth (heresy–a sin of separation from the Church) destroys faith altogether, since one is no longer assenting to God the revealer, but trusting one’s own judgment: “Since faith is one, it must be professed in all its purity and integrity.” (Lumen Fidei 48). On the flip side, because faith is one, if one has faith in Christ–who is the fullness of revelation–faith is not destroyed by innocent ignorance about the various articles of faith: “there is no difference in the faith of ‘those able to discourse of it at length’ and ‘those who speak but little’, between the greater and the less: the first cannot increase the faith, nor the second diminish it.” (Lumen Fidei 47, quoting St. Irenaeus).

 

[Genesis315]

Just to add to my post above, of course charity is also necessary: “At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love” (CCC 1022, quoting St. John of the Cross). Schism, another “sin of separation” ruptures ecclesiastical charity, as St. Augustine noted: “By false doctrines concerning God heretics wound faith, by iniquitous dissensions schismatics deviate from fraternal charity, although they believe what we believe” (On Faith and the Creed 9).

There is no salvation outside the Church because faith and charity are necessary for salvation and schism, heresy, and apostasy separate and are mortal sins.

 

[commenter]

C. S. Lewis wrote that the devil usually sends us errors in pairs. Thus, you have people like Fr. Feeney taking one extreme in the 1940s and 50s. Then we are caught off balance since the 1960s, vulnerable to the opposite error, so now they are removing paintings of Columbus, bringing the Cross to the Western Henisphere. Apparently he should have left the priests home, and brought them Listening Sessions, Committees, and Focus Groups, for empowerment.

 

[goout]

MagdalenaRita:

Just to clarify the Church still holds that there is NO salvation outside the Catholic church.

Yes, provided one understands the meaning of this doctrine. The Church does not teach that formal membership in the institution of the Church during life is required for salvation, or that those that fail to convert to Catholicism are damned.

Yes. The flip side of this error is that earthly membership in the Church is a guarantee of salvation. That’s basically the same error as once saved always saved.

The offer of salvation requires a human response in the gift of faith.

 

[commenter]

It might be clearer to say No Salvation Outside the Catholic Faith.

In 2016 one Vice Presidential candidate was still (prominently) “in the Catholic Church” but publicly rejected most of the Catholic Faith. The other candidate had previously left ,(but not criticized) the Catholic Church, but his public statements show very strong continuation or compatibility in the Catholic Faith. Nr. Pence belongs to another denomination now but often attends Catholic services, while Mr. Kaine always identifies himself with the Church (not the Faith)

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Yes, provided one understands the meaning of this doctrine. The Church does not teach that formal membership in the institution of the Church during life is required for salvation, or that those that fail to convert to Catholicism are damned.

If one is invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith, meaning no fault of their own at all and unable to achieve knowledge, has an implicit desire to conform to God’s law, can be saved but they are also in a position where they can not be sure of their salvation because they are deprived of heavenly gifts and helps which are found only in the Catholic church. Salvation is only found in the Catholic church and NOT in any other religion.
“let those who wish to be saved come to this pillar…
come to the true Church of Christ” Pope Pius lX

 

[goout]

TMC:

Yes, provided one understands the meaning of this doctrine. The Church does not teach that formal membership in the institution of the Church during life is required for salvation, or that those that fail to convert to Catholicism are damned.

If one is invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith, meaning no fault of their own at all and unable to achieve knowledge, has an implicit desire to conform to God’s law, can be saved but they are also in a position where they can not be sure of their salvation because they are deprived of heavenly gifts and helps which are found only in the Catholic church. Salvation is only found in the Catholic church and NOT in any other religion.

I have many Christian friends who were raised Presbyterian or whatever, and live their lives in Christ’s love more fully than I do. Their “chances” of seeing the Lord might be better than mine despite my Catholicity.
And yes, when we are all together in paradise, we will be part of the one holy Catholic and apostolic Church.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

many Christian friends who were raised Presbyterian or whatever, and live their lives in Christ’s love more fully than I do.

How do you know this? We can’t judge if someone is saved or not. That is up to God but He did tell us and give us the heavenly means and helps needed to be saved, in the Catholic Church.

 

[angel12]

As regards Michael Voris, if you are going to attack him, at least be objective.

It is objective, and is not an “attack,” to point out what he says and what he leaves out.

 

[aldocera]

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus: check out the Cathecism of the Catholic Church 846 to 848 and 830. Here is the answer.

Also look:

1. St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.”
2. St. Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), the Angelic Doctor: There is no entering into salvation outside the Catholic Church, just as in the time of the Flood there was not salvation outside the Ark, which denotes the Church."

 

[TheLittleLady]

How can a bishop command a Catholic to stop calling themselves Catholic?

Because we are all subject to the Church and her laws. One of them is that in order to use the term “Catholic” on your business, the Bishop has to give you permission.

what authority does that bishop have to tell them to stop working?

The Bishop has authority over all of the souls in his Diocese. The Authority comes from God.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Neithan:

what authority does that bishop have to tell them to stop working?

The Bishop has authority over all of the souls in his Diocese. The Authority comes from God.

A bishop does have authority in the Church over souls in his diocese but he does not have authority over a person to tell them to stop working.

 

[TMC]

f one is invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith, meaning no fault of their own at all and unable to achieve knowledge, has an implicit desire to conform to God’s law, can be saved but they are also in a position where they can not be sure of their salvation because they are deprived of heavenly gifts and helps which are found only in the Catholic church. Salvation is only found in the Catholic church and NOT in any other religion.
“let those who wish to be saved come to this pillar…
come to the true Church of Christ” Pope Pius lX

Understanding EENS requires an understanding of the meaning of “invincible ignorance.” It does NOT mean that one has never heard of Christ or never been told that Catholicism is the true faith. It means that one is not aware that Catholicism is the true faith. So even a person that refuses to join the Catholic faith can be saved if they refuse to join the Church because they do not understand that doing so is the right thing to do. If someone who left the Catholic faith for another faith can be saved, if they did so believing that the faith they are joining is the true faith.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

It means that one is not aware that Catholicism is the true faith. So even a person that refuses to join the Catholic faith can be saved if they refuse to join the Church because they do not understand that doing so is the right thing to do. If someone who left the Catholic faith for another faith can be saved, if they did so believing that the faith they are joining is the true faith.

Their souls are in danger. Those outside the Catholic church or those who have left the Church can be saved by the grace of God because of His great mercy and what grace they may recieve because of the Catholic church not because salvation is found anywhere else. The possibility of invincible ignorance is ignorance due to no fault of their own, not because they choose to disagree with the Church or choose to believe something else. As said earlier their salvation is in danger without the heavenly helps and light given to us by God through the Catholic church.

“from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation.[196] For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church.” Pope Pius X MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI

Benedict XIV: "We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.

We pray and entreat you to reflect on the great loss of souls due solely to ignorance of divine things.

ACERBO NIMIS Pope Pius X

 

[TMC]

Those outside the Catholic church or those who have left the Church can be saved by the grace of God because of His great mercy and what grace they may recieve because of the Catholic church. Possibility of invincible ignorance is ignorance due to no fault of their own, not because they choose to disagree with the Church or choose to believe something else. As said earlier their salvation is in danger without the heavenly helps and light given to us by God through the Catholic church.

“from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation .[196] For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church.” Pope Pius X MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI

Benedict XIV: "We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.

We pray and entreat you to reflect on the great loss of souls due solely to ignorance of divine things.

ACERBO NIMIS Pope Pius X

I notice that you have a habit of cherry picking quotes from Popes of the past, while not acknowledging the actual teaching of the Church. Why is that? Do you agree with the Church that non-Catholics and even atheists can be saved, or do you not?

 

[Crusader13]

I notice that you have a habit of cherry picking quotes from Popes of the past, while not acknowledging the actual teaching of the Church. Why is that? Do you agree with the Church that non-Catholics and even atheists can be saved, or do you not?

To which official Church teaching are you referring to in support of such a widespread generalization on the salvation of non-Catholics and atheists?

 

[TMC]

To which official Church teaching are you referring to in support of such a widespread generalization on the salvation of non-Catholics and atheists?

Which one - it is found in many places, such as the Catechism, Lumen Gentium, and the consistent teaching of the Popes. Here is a relevant quote from the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.

Frankly, it is very surprising to me that supposedly catechized Catholics are not familiar with this teaching. The Pope himself has clearly stated that atheists can be saved. This is not an arcane part of the faith, but it remains one of the most misunderstood teachings in Catholicism.

 

[goout]

goout:

many Christian friends who were raised Presbyterian or whatever, and live their lives in Christ’s love more fully than I do.

How do you know this? We can’t judge if someone is saved or not. That is up to God but He did tell us and give us the heavenly means and helps needed to be saved, in the Catholic Church.

How do I know what?
What I directly said was:

many Christian friends who were raised Presbyterian or whatever, and live their lives in Christ’s love more fully than I do.

I know this by the way they live.
?

 

[graciew]