Michele Bachmann signed marriage pact suggesting black families were better off during slavery

[exnihilo]

The slaves didn’t believe that which is why they deserted the plantations in droves any time the union army got there.

I dont understand what you are saying.

Lincoln did not free the slaves in the non-rebelling states as he had no power to do so. . He freed the slaves in the South as contrabands of war, , which was the best rational he could use until the 13th and 14th amendments were passed.

Did he have the power to jail the Maryland state legislators? Did he have the power to deport an Ohio congressman? Did he have the power to arrest the Chief Justice after he denied Lincoln’s suspension of habeus corpus? Lincoln did not seem to have problems with extra constitutional power. The EP is best understood as an effort to cause a slave revolt, an ancient tactic even the British employed. But Lincoln’s power is not really the issue, unless you accept that he was a dictator and Congress no longer mattered. The North could have ended slavery and did not. That is a plain fact that must be explained away to keep the narrative.

The 13th and 14th Amendment are great points. The South voted to end slavery by passing the 13th Amendment, which occurred after the war. The South would not vote for the 14th Amendment for the obvious reason that it disenfranchised so many citizens. But many Northern states did not vote for it either.

Once the Amendment failed the victors, the North, dissolved the southern states, setup military districts and said they would only end the oppressive occupation is passage of the 14th. A great day for democracy! Oregon tried to rescind their vote for the 14th upon this action but was refused.

Simple logic tells us if rebel states could vote to end slavery they were still considered states. So the story of the 14th reveals how this war was not about slavery so much as subjugation of a region and ensuring the US is a blood in, blood out gang.

 

[exnihilo]

So firing on Ft Sumpter consitues peacefully seceding?

Yes, when you’ve given the foreign army four months to vacate you’ve made more than a good faith effort to maintain peace.

I’ve answered your question. Since you disagree will you tell me how long SC should have waited for the foreign army to leave SC’s fort which controlled access to a vital harbor?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

You have not opened up any kind of can of worms. What you’ve done is made an unsubstantiated assertion that even if true, would not in any way justify the forced enslavement of 4.5 million African-Americans by the southern states.

So the forced enslavement and even more inhumane treatment of white slaves was okay then?

 

[estesbob]

I dont understand what you are saying.

The Slaves took the emancipation Proclomation seriously-they fled in droves to union lines whenver the Union army got near.

Did he have the power to jail the Maryland state legislators? Did he have the power to deport an Ohio congressman? Did he have the power to arrest the Chief Justice after he denied Lincoln’s suspension of habeus corpus? Lincoln did not seem to have problems with extra constitutional power. The EP is best understood as an effort to cause a slave revolt, an ancient tactic even the British employed. But Lincoln’s power is not really the issue, unless you accept that he was a dictator and Congress no longer mattered. The North could have ended slavery and did not. That is a plain fact that must be explained away to keep the narrative.

The North could not have ended slavery without a consitutional amendment, which they did quickly after the war was ended. Lincoln had the power to do everything he did although it must be noted he used the ability to suspend habeus corpus duing war much less than Jefferson Davis did.

The 13th and 14th Amendment are great points. The South voted to end slavery by passing the 13th Amendment, which occurred after the war. The South would not vote for the 14th Amendment for the obvious reason that it disenfranchised so many citizens. But many Northern states did not vote for it either.

Once the Amendment failed the victors, the North, dissolved the southern states, setup military districts and said they would only end the oppressive occupation is passage of the 14th. A great day for democracy! Oregon tried to rescind their vote for the 14th upon this action but was refused.

Simple logic tells us if rebel states could vote to end slavery they were still considered states. So the story of the 14th reveals how this war was not about slavery so much as subjugation of a region and ensuring the US is a blood in, blood out gang.

Arkansas, Florida,North Carolina, South Carolina and Louisiana all voted to ratify the 14th Amendment

I hardly think that States that kept so many of their inhabitants in brutal servitude should be whining about loss of democracy. In most countries the leaders of the South would have been summarily executed at the end of the war. They were treated with great restraint by the victors.

 

[estesbob]

So the forced enslavement and even more inhumane treatment of white slaves was okay then?

You think so? I dont know why it doesnt suprise me that you believe that.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

The slaves didn’t believe that which is why they deserted the plantations in droves any time the union army got there.

Lincoln did not free the slaves in the non-rebelling states as he had no power to do so. . He freed the slaves in the South as contrabands of war, , which was the best rational he could use until the 13th and 14th amendments were passed.

So Lincoln could free slaves from the states that were NOT under his authority, but he could NOT free slaves that were under his authority? Are you even listening to yourself? :whacky:

 

[estesbob]

Yes, when you’ve given the foreign army four months to vacate you’ve made more than a good faith effort to maintain peace.

I’ve answered your question. Since you disagree will you tell me how long SC should have waited for the foreign army to leave SC’s fort which controlled access to a vital harbor?

I am not the one who made the claim the South Seceded peacefully.

 

[ringil]

I only wish Reconstruction would have been carried further thus preventing the “redemption” of the South, the emergence of the KKK, and the establishment of Jim Crow Laws by former slave owners lamenting the “Glory Days” of old.

How much further could the South have evolve, how much earlier could the Civil Rights Movement have occurred. Or would it have even been neccessary?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

You think so? I dont know why it doesnt suprise me that you believe that.

It was a question. Usually a simply answer suffices, rather than a supposition of belief on the other person.

 

[estesbob]

So Lincoln could free slaves from the states that were NOT under his authority, but he could NOT free slaves that were under his authority? Are you even listening to yourself? :whacky:

The southern states were under his authority(as the Union Army so competently showed) and he legally freed the slaves in the South as contrabands of war.

Scott you need to get over it-the South lost. Regardless of you feelings they supported a vile , evil institution. It was a moral imprative they be bought down-the only regeret i have is it wasnt done sooner. The South is a perfcet example of the problems with embracing a political philosophy that puts property ownership ahead of human rights…

 

[bellasbane]

The South did not secede peacefully.

Fort Sumpter (April 12th) wasn’t the only act of Southern aggression during the first week of the Civil war. There was also the raid on Harper’s Ferry by the Virginia militia (April 18th) and Baltimore Riot (April 19th) .

 

[exnihilo]

The Slaves took the emancipation Proclomation seriously-they fled in droves to union lines whenver the Union army got near.

There certainly were those who fled to the Union Army.

I almost forgot one solid refutation of your point about the EP. It actually excluded areas of the southern states that were occupied by the Union Army. So while most of LA was included the area around New Orleans was excluded because it was Union occupied. That further deflates the argument that the North lacked the power. They free slaves only in places where they had no authority. It was a PR move.

The North could not have ended slavery without a consitutional amendment, which they did quickly after the war was ended. Lincoln had the power to do everything he did although it must be noted he used the ability to suspend habeus corpus duing war much less than Jefferson Davis did.

Clearly not true if the EP has any power. Where the freed slaves from the EP going to be forced back into slavery if the CSA won?

Regarding Lincoln’s power you realize many Union contemporaries disagreed, including the chief justice.

Arkansas, Florida,North Carolina, South Carolina and Louisiana all voted to ratify the 14th Amendment

How could they, they were not states according to the theory of the reconstructionists?

I hardly think that States that kept so many of their inhabitants in brutal servitude should be whining about loss of democracy. In most countries the leaders of the South would have been summarily executed at the end of the war. They were treated with great restraint by the victors.

You are aware the both sides used conscription. So it is OK to seize a man, march him away from his family and make him fight in a war in which he might well die, but it is wrong to force a man to work in a field where he most probably will live a reasonably long life.

The servitude was not always brutal. Sometimes it was. There were things like whipping. But long after slavery ended the military still whipped soldiers who disobeyed. And to this day a deserter can be executed.

 

[estesbob]

It was a question. Usually a simply answer suffices, rather than a supposition of belief on the other person.

You made the statement. I can only assume you meant what you said.

 

[exnihilo]

I am not the one who made the claim the South Seceded peacefully.

You are not engaging in honest and fair debate. I answered your question and posed a reasonable one to you which you are evading.

 

[exnihilo]

I only wish Reconstruction would have been carried further thus preventing the “redemption” of the South, the emergence of the KKK, and the establishment of Jim Crow Laws by former slave owners lamenting the “Glory Days” of old.

How much further could the South have evolve, how much earlier could the Civil Rights Movement have occurred. Or would it have even been neccessary?

That is insulting and shows a lack of knowledge. Boston schools were only desegregated in the 1980s and with much resistance. I’m pretty sure Blacks in Chicago complain about racism there.

 

[exnihilo]

There was also the raid on Harper’s Ferry by the Virginia militia (April 18th) and Baltimore Riot (April 19th) .

Harpers Ferry was Virginia property, like Sumter. Baltimore was a a Union state. They voted against secession.

 

[estesbob]

There certainly were those who fled to the Union Army.

I almost forgot one solid refutation of your point about the EP. It actually excluded areas of the southern states that were occupied by the Union Army. So while most of LA was included the area around New Orleans was excluded because it was Union occupied. That further deflates the argument that the North lacked the power. They free slaves only in places where they had no authority. It was a PR move.

Again he had no power to free the slaves that were not in areas engaged in warfare against United States. and yes it there is no doubt there was a PR component to it-it was designed not only to free the slaves, but to keep in Britain out of the war and disrupt the southern war effort by causing slaves to free to the North. But make no mistake -once the EP was issued. there was no turning back as most historians recognize and as a rebelling states most certainly recognized. When Lincoln issued the proclamation the Civil War became about ending slavery.

Clearly not true if the EP has any power. Where the freed slaves from the EP going to be forced back into slavery if the CSA won?

. It accomplished exactly what was intended to do. Britain stayed out of the war and the slaves fled the South in droves.

Regarding Lincoln’s power you realize many Union contemporaries disagreed, including the chief justice.

. I will take you seriously when you criticize Jefferson Davis’s much more egregious use of the suspension of habeas corpus.

How could they, they were not states according to the theory of the reconstructionists?

… It would be strange indeed for defeated rebels to be given a say in Constitution of the government they fought so hard to defeat.

You are aware the both sides used conscription. So it is OK to seize a man, march him away from his family and make him fight in a war in which he might well die, but it is wrong to force a man to work in a field where he most probably will live a reasonably long life.

Been used in every war up until 1970

The servitude was not always brutal. Sometimes it was. There were things like whipping. But long after slavery ended the military still whipped soldiers who disobeyed. And to this day a deserter can be executed.

This is the second time in this thread, we have had the “happy slave” myth promulgated. it is unbelievable in today’s day and age that people still make that claim.

 

[bellasbane]

Harpers Ferry was Virginia property, like Sumter. Baltimore was a a Union state. They voted against secession.

These were still aggressive actions taken against the Union by Southern Confederates. You are trying to change history.

 

[estesbob]

Harpers Ferry was Virginia property, like Sumter. Baltimore was a a Union state. They voted against secession.

Iirrelevant in a discussion about whether the South succeeded peacefully.

 

[bellasbane]

Harpers Ferry was Virginia property, like Sumter. Baltimore was a a Union state. They voted against secession.

By the way, “Baltimore” was a city, Maryland is the state. Harper’s Ferry eventually became part of West Virginia - which was the territory represented by the delegates at the Virginia Convention who refused to vote to secede.