Minnesota school shooting gunman kills 2 children, injures 17 others during Catholic mass

[Deleted member]

Your point being?

" God is the Supreme Truth, and humility is the truth of the soul, as it is by understanding our own nothingness and spiritual misery that we align with God's truth."
What do you make of the words of St Therese of Avila?
What do you know about St. Therese of Avila?
What i have learnt from people that are close to sainthood (I worked with the nephew of a Saint, also a Jesuit Priest like his uncle) or close to greatness in science, is that they rarely claim too have the truth. They have humility recognizing all they do not know.
Unfortunately, when people are very limited in knowledge (or love) , they are less aware of their limitations.
Matt: 13:12
"To anyone who has, more will be given* and he will grow rich; from anyone who has not, even what he has will be taken away."

Thank you for the interest you showed in my reply to your posting.
I wish your search for truth will be illuminated by compassion, from which knowledge flourishes.

 

[vz71]

I am concerned about a prejudicial and misinformed reaction, which would attempt to blame gender incongruence for the shooting.

I do not think anyone here has made this argument.

But there are a number that have noted that the incongruence between what they believe and what actually is indicates a mental instability.
This mental instability can contribute to any number of aberrant behaviors.

Perhaps if this mental issue were treated instead of affirmed, circumstances would have been different.

 

[Deleted member]

You are treading on dangerous ground in this thread.
We KNOW that God created us male and female. Our bodies show us this. To speak of a very skinny person as being obese, just because that is how they identify themselves, is absolute nonsense.
We must always stick to objective reality, never the "reality" that may exist between our ears. To do otherwise is showing a great lack of love!
Maybe you need to speak to an orthodox Catholic priest about this. I am very scared for you as I type these lines.

That's from

Stand Fast on the Pronouns​

I changed the reply above, to focus on the issue. there was too much repetition before

 

[BartholomewB]

Two activities that are equally a waste of time.

One, trying to persuade someone who believes in “gender” that there is really no such thing,

The other, trying to persuade someone who doesn’t believe in gender that it is a real thing.

 

[Deleted member]

Two activities that are equally a waste of time.

One, trying to persuade someone who believes in “gender” that there is really no such thing,

The other, trying to persuade someone who doesn’t believe in gender that it is a real thing.

Thank you BartholomewB, my thoughts exactly.
The Catholic Church is balancing science with faith - in gender issues it has been doing it since the 1960s. It has been an heroic feat, as the Church has not yielded to easy answers - like disavow a science which has moved fast since 1973; even when it has been in contradiction to doctrine.
The church changed the language from referring to homosexuality as an objective disorder to saying that the homosexual act was a disordered one according to faith. Two lines were drawn: 1. The Church recognized the authority of science when in 1973 the American Psychiatrist Association in a landmark decision, shifted from classifying homosexuality as an illness to acknowledging it as a normal variation of human sexuality. 2. The Church established that in using the word disorder it was referring to a moral teaching. As homeschooldad said, not different than extramarital sex.
I am no attempting to convince anyone. Not everybody is as comfortable with scientific hypothesis and working with human behavior as I am. To me it is an everyday action and a lifelong training to think about people making decisions, and the many moral ramifications of them (not just one line of thought, but many to be considered simultaneously - that is a skill on itself) It gives understanding of the almost impossible task facing the Church and respect for the grace in handling it.
I write to balance the views and complement knowledge that has been too narrowly presented on this Forum. I consider it a task of faith. Jesus did not spend his time on earth amazing people with magic tricks. Jesus performed miracles to fulfill prophecies, prove His divinity, demonstrate compassion, and offer a foretaste of God’s future kingdom.
Unfortunately, i felt too many times when reading through this forum, that people get so wrapped up on a particular argument that they forget that the ultimate test of our faith is compassion: Matthew the Judgement of Nations 25:31-46.

 

[Deleted member]

Two activities that are equally a waste of time.

One, trying to persuade someone who believes in “gender” that there is really no such thing,

The other, trying to persuade someone who doesn’t believe in gender that it is a real thing.

Additionally, there is the matter of a proper framework for communicating. I messaged Homeshooldad and Greg, about having explicit guidelines, most online forums do. Homeschooldad told me to start a topic on it, which is the egg and the chick problem. Without proper facilitation, that conversation might develop very fast into aggressive exchanges.
As an example, I had suggested to start with the "Code of Civil Disourse" from the National Conflict Resolution Center

The Code of Civil Discourse Thank You - National Conflict Resolution Center

Thank you for your interest in the NCRC Code of Civil Discourse. You can download the Code of Civil Discourse here.

ncrconline.com

I leave it with you, thank you for posting a conciliatory message.

 

[Deleted member]

Two activities that are equally a waste of time.

One, trying to persuade someone who believes in “gender” that there is really no such thing,

The other, thing to persuade someone who doesn’t believe in gender that it is a real thing.

BartholomewB - above I talked about the impressive effort of theCatholic Church in keeping up with science. In this book "Think Again" by Adam Grant - (Also the Author of "The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know"), the author describes what it takes. He talks about mental fitness for an individual. We (economists) study how it applies to organizations. As an organization- a special one- the Catholic Church is moving with the mental dexterity desired for individuals. Note that mental horsepower does not guarantee mental dexterity.
From the book: People can think like a scientist even if they are not one. Thinking like a scientist involves more than just reacting with an open mind. It means being actively open-minded. It requires searching for reasons why we might be wrong - not for reasons why we must be right- and revising our views based on what we learn.
The author uses four mental modes to show how our mind works when looking at reality - Scientist, Preacher, Prosecutor, Politicians. The Catholic Church raises above preacher, balancing all four modes. In fact, like the Church of the middle ages, which was the keeper and promoter of knowledge, the Catholic Church today as before, moves prevalently in scientist mode while keeping the dogma. It is what has fueled its stability through the times and despite our limitations as humans.
The author says: "In preacher mode, changing our minds is a mark of moral weakness; in scientist mode, it's a sign of intellectual integrity. In prosecutor mode, allowing ourselves to be persuaded is admitting defeat; in scientist mode, it's a step toward the truth. In politician mode we flip-flop in response to carrots and sticks; in scientist mode, we shift in the face of sharper logic and stronger data. "

I cited another book by the author, "The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know". This is incredibly important in our individual lives- it is the base for humility and humility is what keeps the line to God open, without obstacles.
The Catholic Church makes a practice of this- in particular when it comes to infallibility, dogma and doctrine. It has hundreds of years of focusing on what is revealed truth and what is a strong belief. It has changed doctrine over the years to constantly update to our evolving understanding of God's creation- which is prompted by science. The best scientist will abandon all individual agenda or preconceived ideas in pursue of the truth; the process is analogous to that of a true believer in search of God's truth. Prayer and a good spiritual practice can indeed make better scientists. That is another reason for keeping a good conversation between Church and science.
Again, thank you for your comment which allowed me to post my response on this forum

 

[po18guy]

Male and female He created them. Let your "she" be she and your "he" be he. Anything more than this is of evil.

To me, if one desires to chemically and stylistically emulate a different sex, it implies two things:
1. They hate themselves as they are.
2. They are guaranteed failure, as they cannot become what they desire and their DNA will forever testify that they are male or female.

Q: When did the unthinkable become thinkable, acceptable, even desired? Wasn't this process all rather subtle?

 

[vz71]

When did the unthinkable become thinkable, acceptable, even desired? Wasn't this process all rather subtle?

We have been on this rather slippery slope for nearly a century.

Divorcing sex from it's intended purpose has consequences.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

We have been on this rather slippery slope for nearly a century.

Divorcing sex from its intended purpose has consequences.

People have been having sex, for the sole purpose of pleasure with hoping that it would not result in a pregnancy, and all that goes with that, for probably as long as there have been people. In times past, many (probably most) couples, if the woman fell pregnant, went ahead and got married (not to mention that this was the ideal way for a woman who desired a certain man to be able to "snag" him) if for no other reason than social pressure, no woman could face the larger society "with child" and no husband/father, think Hester Prynne and The Scarlet Letter, indeed, this was Our Lady's dilemma, though her pregnancy was without moral fault (to say the least). People sought out all sorts of potions and such, and sought to end these pregnancies by primitive means if it came to that. Only in the past century or so have means been created to make pregnancy prevention a highly efficient, easily-used solution, and there is also equally efficient surgical and pharmaceutical abortion if the contraception fails. (To her credit, perhaps, Margaret Sanger abhorred abortion and saw it as a tragic admission that the contraceptive failed.)

 

[Deleted member]

People have been having sex, for the sole purpose of pleasure with hoping that it would not result in a pregnancy, and all that goes with that, for probably as long as there have been people. In times past, many (probably most) couples, if the woman fell pregnant, went ahead and got married (not to mention that this was the ideal way for a woman who desired a certain man to be able to "snag" him) if for no other reason than social pressure, no woman could face the larger society "with child" and no husband/father, think Hester Prynne and The Scarlet Letter, indeed, this was Our Lady's dilemma, though her pregnancy was without moral fault (to say the least). People sought out all sorts of potions and such, and sought to end these pregnancies by primitive means if it came to that. Only in the past century or so have means been created to make pregnancy prevention a highly efficient, easily-used solution, and there is also equally efficient surgical and pharmaceutical abortion if the contraception fails. (To her credit, perhaps, Margaret Sanger abhorred abortion and saw it as a tragic admission that the contraceptive failed.)

I wrote about humanae Vitae on the other thread.
To complete the literary review- we must consider the other side- the libertine that seduced innocent women. We have Don Juan in two moralist Spanish plays, one by Jose Zorrilla, and "El convidado de Piedra" from Tirso de Molina - in which the seducer is rightfully taken to hell by the authority. In ballet, we have Giselle. In opera we have Verdi's Rigolleto, in which the Duke of Montova mockingly and with most cruelty sings "La Donna e mobile" and Gilda dies for love.
It is unfortunately, a long tradition that has been carried to shameful activities in frat houses in college. This when most women have move towards having careers that would not make them depended on men (no need to trap them in marriage) for their survival.

Gentlemen, I hope I can relied on your highest morals and sensitivity to continue this conversation with respect towards women.

 

[DaveBj]

Male and female He created them. Let your "she" be she and your "he" be he. Anything more than this is of evil.

To me, if one desires to chemically and stylistically emulate a different sex, it implies two things:
1. They hate themselves as they are.
2. They are guaranteed failure, as they cannot become what they desire and their DNA will forever testify that they are male or female.

Q: When did the unthinkable become thinkable, acceptable, even desired? Wasn't this process all rather subtle?

This reminds me of a meme that's making the rounds on social media -- "You can pretend all you want that you're a woman, but when you reach age 50, you're still going to have to start getting regular prostate exams."

Dxx

 

[vz71]

My transgender coworker believes he is ducking out a problem later in life since he won't have a prostate.

Apparently there is a significant history in his family of prostate cancer, and someone told him that he won't have one when he finishes shuffling his parts around.

I haven't bothered telling him...he wouldn't believe me anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

People have been having sex, for the sole purpose of pleasure with hoping that it would not result in a pregnancy, and all that goes with that, for probably as long as there have been people. In times past, many (probably most) couples, if the woman fell pregnant, went ahead and got married (not to mention that this was the ideal way for a woman who desired a certain man to be able to "snag" him) if for no other reason than social pressure, no woman could face the larger society "with child" and no husband/father, think Hester Prynne and The Scarlet Letter, indeed, this was Our Lady's dilemma, though her pregnancy was without moral fault (to say the least). People sought out all sorts of potions and such, and sought to end these pregnancies by primitive means if it came to that. Only in the past century or so have means been created to make pregnancy prevention a highly efficient, easily-used solution, and there is also equally efficient surgical and pharmaceutical abortion if the contraception fails. (To her credit, perhaps, Margaret Sanger abhorred abortion and saw it as a tragic admission that the contraceptive failed.)

I am answering this point separately because it is mixing with another thread- about Marian adoration (Mary Mother of God). The Vatican has directed parishes to increase Marian adoration- if I am correct, parishes in the US are doing weekly adorations (if not more). I think- this is my subjective feeling- that this is to recognize women in the Church- at least as a woman I feel respected and I feel I matter. Women in the family I was born in were strong in Marian adoration- it united us. The Catholic Church in fact has a special place for women saints, and that is one way of elevating them, like Jesus did when discussing with Mary and Martha. It seems to me that telling a woman busy with "woman tasks" to clean a house in that tradition to come and discuss religion (the role of man) was revolutionary. It was inclusion- and the Catholic Church, within the dogma, is attempting to give a voice to women, and have men listen to it. Please, do not make assumptions on why women act like they do. It is for us to say. Believe me, most women do not want to depend on mean, we have been let down to many times. How many Fantines have their been in history? how many women escaping domestic abuse?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I am answering this point separately because it is mixing with another thread- about Marian adoration (Mary Mother of God). The Vatican has directed parishes to increase Marian adoration- if I am correct, parishes in the US are doing weekly adorations (if not more). I think- this is my subjective feeling- that this is to recognize women in the Church- at least as a woman I feel respected and I feel I matter. Women in the family I was born in were strong in Marian adoration- it united us. The Catholic Church in fact has a special place for women saints, and that is one way of elevating them, like Jesus did when discussing with Mary and Martha. It seems to me that telling a woman busy with "woman tasks" to clean a house in that tradition to come and discuss religion (the role of man) was revolutionary. It was inclusion- and the Catholic Church, within the dogma, is attempting to give a voice to women, and have men listen to it. Please, do not make assumptions on why women act like they do. It is for us to say. Believe me, most women do not want to depend on mean, we have been let down to many times. How many Fantines have their been in history? how many women escaping domestic abuse?

I would reconsider the term "adoration" with regard to Our Lady. Adoration is reserved only for God. It's obvious what you mean, but it is similar to the term "worship", that, too, is reserved to God alone. Mary is more commonly referred to as being "venerated" or the subject of "devotion". Protestants are constantly accusing us of "worshipping" Mary.

It's hard to deny that many women throughout history have deliberately gotten themselves pregnant in order to force their lovers to marry them. I would not say that women of such mindset are in the majority, certainly not, but they are out there. It is in no way misogynistic merely to note phenomena. The whole situation can be avoided by both men and women remaining continent until marriage.

 

[Deleted member]

I would reconsider the term "adoration" with regard to Our Lady. Adoration is reserved only for God. It's obvious what you mean, but it is similar to the term "worship", that, too, is reserved to God alone. Mary is more commonly referred to as being "venerated" or the subject of "devotion". Protestants are constantly accusing us of "worshipping" Mary.

It's hard to deny that many women throughout history have deliberately gotten themselves pregnant in order to force their lovers to marry them. I would not say that women of such mindset are in the majority, certainly not, but they are out there. It is in no way misogynistic merely to note phenomena. The whole situation can be avoided by both men and women remaining continent until marriage.

This is what is misogynistic about the statement:
You only mention a part of human failure which would fully rest on the woman, without giving a balanced view on how men have done their part in that "game". Men have used women for sex since the beginning of time, giving rise to the term "the oldest profession in the world". Many men have actively battled women advancement in the labor force, as to keep that advantage. It is not just about being continent until marriage. It is also after marriage -how many men have more than one family? This is a complex issue, it is misogynistic not to listen to the good arguments from women. It is misogynistic to view women only as femme fatales, like in a Humphrey Boggart film noir. This is a complex issue, which women, being in a position of less power, have struggled for centuries. It is misogynistic to reduce women to that role. I have no idea how many women got pregnant in purpose to "trap" a man. do you know how many good women have been left alone to defend their children after errant husbands did not honor their commitments? That is what it means to reduce women to the sexual role, it means to dismiss all other evidence of their faithfulness and dedication. And it is offensive.
It is time for women to lead this conversation and for men to listen with respect.

Regarding Marian adoration, let me fully explain, your understanding of it is not quite Catholic: The Marian adoration which the Vatican is requesting churches to have at least once a week is a Catholic devotional practice that encourages participants to venerate the exposed Blessed Sacrament while invoking the intercession of Mary, the mother of God who is seen as the first adorer of her Son and a model for the faithful. This devotion can involve traditional forms of adoration, such as scriptural or doctrinal meditation, and the praying of the Rosary, all done with Mary as a spiritual guide and companion.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

This is what is misogynistic about the statement:
You only mention a part of human failure which would fully rest on the woman, without giving a balanced view on how men have done their part in that "game". Men have used women for sex since the beginning of time, giving rise to the term "the oldest profession in the world". Many men have actively battled women advancement in the labor force, as to keep that advantage. It is not just about being continent until marriage. It is also after marriage -how many men have more than one family? This is a complex issue, it is misogynistic not to listen to the good arguments from women. It is misogynistic to view women only as femme fatales, like on a Humphrey Boggart film noir. This is a complex issue, which women, being in a position of less power, have struggled for centuries.
With all due respect, I will repeat- it is women who should lead this conversation and it is time for men to listen with respect.

Regarding Marian adoration, let me fully explain, your understanding of it is not quite Catholic: The Marian adoration which the Vatican is requesting churches to have at least once a week is a Catholic devotional practice that encourages participants to venerate the exposed Blessed Sacrament while invoking the intercession of Mary, the mother of God who is seen as the first adorer of her Son and a model for the faithful. This devotion can involve traditional forms of adoration, such as scriptural or doctrinal meditation, and the praying of the Rosary, all done with Mary as a spiritual guide and companion.

For every act such as this, it takes both a woman and a man. And it can't be discounted that a man, who wants to marry a woman, might seek to get her pregnant so she will have to marry him, if he's crazy over her but she is a bit less eager. It's not something you hear spoken of, and it's a bit farfetched, but it's within the realm of human motivation. The colloquial (and quite unflattering) contemporary term for such men, who can't live without a woman even if she doesn't quite reciprocate his ardor, is "simp". The pop song "Build Me Up Buttercup" by The Foundations brings this out, it's really pretty nauseating to listen to.

I see what you are saying about "Marian adoration", and that the "adoration" is directed towards Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, that's not problematical at all. If the Vatican is using the term "Marian adoration", though, they might want to reconsider that, the term is subject to misinterpretation.

 

[Deleted member]

For every act such as this, it takes both a woman and a man. And it can't be discounted that a man, who wants to marry a woman, might seek to get her pregnant so she will have to marry him, if he's crazy over her but she is a bit less eager. It's not something you hear spoken of, and it's a bit farfetched, but it's within the realm of human motivation. The colloquial (and quite unflattering) contemporary term for such men, who can't live without a woman even if she doesn't quite reciprocate his ardor, is "simp". The pop song "Build Me Up Buttercup" by The Foundations brings this out, it's really pretty nauseating to listen to.

I see what you are saying about "Marian adoration", and that the "adoration" is directed towards Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, that's not problematical at all. If the Vatican is using the term "Marian adoration", though, they might want to reconsider that, the term is subject to misinterpretation.

Far fetched? It is not far fetched- as the balanced of power has changed, more men have been using this tactic and others. It is spoken more in professional circles. But it is not the point. The issue is that men play tricks on women to gain sexual favor. My sense is that it is way more common than tricks by women to get married. But then I am a professional woman that never saw a reason for marriage other than for love. And yes, me and my classmates had support groups to find out the tricks men were playing on us- you have no idea how inventive they are. They are also men that play tricks to get money from women. It is less covered, because most film makers are men, so they dominate the stories- but you would be surprised what is out there. With due respect, I think you should spend more time listening.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Far fetched? It is not far fetched- as the balanced of power has changed, more men have been using this tactic and others. It is spoken more in professional circles. But it is not the point. The issue is that men play tricks on women to gain sexual favor. My sense is that it is way more common than tricks by women to get married. But then I am a professional woman that never saw a reason for marriage other than for love. And yes, me and my classmates had support groups to find out the tricks men were playing on us- you have no idea how inventive they are. They are also men that play tricks to get money from women. It is less covered, because most film makers are men, so they dominate the stories- but you would be surprised what is out there. With due respect, I think you should spend more time listening.

I've never heard of it, I just cite it as within the realm of possibility, but then again I haven't heard of everything that goes on in the world. Seems pretty desperate to me.

And note, I am referring to the possibility of a man seeking to get a woman pregnant. Men seducing women with no intent beyond satisfying concupiscence is as old as time. "The other way around" (think Sex and the City) is a more recent phenomenon, no doubt made easier with the availability of efficient birth control methods (as well as abortion if those fail).

I have a son who has just reached adulthood. I have taught him in great detail all of the things a badly-acting woman could do, to put him at a disadvantage. If I had a daughter instead of a son, I would be teaching her all of the things a badly-acting man is capable of doing to harm her. Both sexes can be virtuous or they can not be. And one wishes to hope that the vast majority of men and women act from a position of virtue.

 

[Deleted member]

I've never heard of it, I just cite it as within the realm of possibility, but then again I haven't heard of everything that goes on in the world. Seems pretty desperate to me.

And note, I am referring to the possibility of a man seeking to get a woman pregnant. Men seducing women with no intent beyond satisfying concupiscence is as old as time. "The other way around" (think Sex and the City) is a more recent phenomenon, no doubt made easier with the availability of efficient birth control methods (as well as abortion if those fail).

I have a son who has just reached adulthood. I have taught him in great detail all of the things a badly-acting woman could do, to put him at a disadvantage. If I had a daughter instead of a son, I would be teaching her all of the things a badly-acting man is capable of doing to harm her. Both sexes can be virtuous or they can not be. And one wishes to hope that the vast majority of men and women act from a position of virtue.

Why not have an open conversation with both about both cases? The man falling to the trick of a women that got pregnant to trap him is most probably the man that was playing a game to get sexual favors. Relationships tend to be two sided. Note that I am talking about adults here. Young adults, that is a whole other ball game. They are learning and falling as they go.
The problem is a lot of people, especially when young, can not see beyond their wants or anxieties, and they do not even realize they are being manipulative.
I hope it all goes well with your kids, but be aware that you can not anticipate all for them. The landscape changes, faster today than when you were young. Eventually they will be alone, with an unexpected situation and will have to use discernment. It makes more sense to focus on risk control, on having resources to fall back in crisis moments. And hope for damage control, that when they fall, the consequences will not be that enough for them to bear.
Btw- I can't stand "Sex and the City" - a callous show. My friends and I had way more meaningful lives while we navigated our studies- still- a few of them opted for being single mothers (with the support of their families), after giving up on men that would treat ment properly. It is not easy for educated women. It comes at you from all sides.But then, it was not easy for grandmothers trapped in abusive marriages, unable to break free because of financial constraints.