Miracles of the Saints - Protestant reaction?

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I have read about countless numbers of miracles attributed to the Saints, many of which occurred after their death, such as never decaying, or having the aroma of flowers or sweetness - or how about the miracles in which the Eucharist was changed to real flesh in blood and still preserved today in Europe. These seem to be miraculous acts of God through the Saints, and yet it is not something that I hear many Protestants (I know some Protestants do hold high esteem for the Saints although the miracle of the Eurcharist would still be one that seems to contridict their practices), or anyone outside of the Cathlolic Church for that matter make reference to?

Why is this? Any ideas, or reactions from non-catholics about the importance of these miracles?

Thank you!

Peace

Several points are worth bearing in mind ​

1. Catholics tend to see “others” as “non-Catholics” - but, many Protestants, particularly those who value continuity with the past, regard themselves as Catholics, though not as “Papists” (to put it rudely).

This is why many Anglicans do not see a fundamental cleavage between the Church in England before what we would regard as schism, and they see as reform. (Obviously this is not the place to go into the details of the difference in POVs). So they are likely to regard “our” saints, or some of them, as being as much a part of their past as of ours - & the pre-Reformation saints are looked in just this way: St.Francis of Assisi is an example.

They are in general more likely than the non-liturgical type of Christian to see continuity - Protestant Fundamentalism in the US is largely of this latter kind; they seem to be what in the UK would be called “low church”.

What one makes of the post-Apostolic period depends very much on what one believes the Church to be, & on how one thinks God acts; & so, on whether one believes the sort of things the Apostles are still the kind of thing one might expect to hear of: does God still do miracles; or, were miracles worked in the infancy of the Church so as to get her “up & running”, without being intended for her life in later ages ? Calvinists seem to take the latter view - Catholics & Pentecostals seem to take the former.

And there is the further question of what sort of miracle is said to have happened: there is a qualitative difference between a miracle of the multiplication of food (which is NT in form); & St.Raymond of Penafort crossing a river on his cloak, which seems either trivial or merely odd, but not really a “proper” miracle, because it has no clear ethical character. It may be a wonder - but is it anything more ? So something may well depend on what sort of miracle one has in mind. ##

 

[LilyM]

Yeah, we are talking about bread turned flesh that has actually been preserved naturally for centuries, and scientifically confirmed to be of the same tissue as a heart.

So I think the fact that a miracle like this has even taken place, and just so happens to be from the Eucharist, is good enough evidence that it is the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Who else’s would it be? Or more importantly why?

But remember, this is only one of many miracles attributed to the Catholic Church’s history - there are also the preserved bodies of Saints, another one you can still go visit today, in tact, without any unnatural preservatation applied - the name is slipping my mind at the moment, I’m sure any other well school Catholic here could provide that. There are the corpses of Saints with the aroma of flowers, and lists of other miracles…

It just seems to me that these are overwhelming circumstances to try and deny or explain away… at least for me?

Peace

More impressive are the medically investigated and described healings that have taken place at Lourdes.

And also the others that have occurred at the intervention of many of the Saints.

Remember two miracles are required attributable to the intervention of a deceased person before they can be declared a saint. And things such as incorruptibility (which can sometimes occur naturally in the right conditions) or phantom perfumes don’t cut it in that regard.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

When DNA testing proves it is the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ then I will believe it.

forever Baptist
allischalmers

I sincerely hope it is not genuine - if it could prove anything, it might conceivably prove the truth of a heresy that (IMHO) a lot of Catholics seem to overlook; the heresy of ultra-realism. Catholics in recent times have been so concerned to insist that Jesus Christ Present in or as the Eucharist (neither of those prepositions is free of misleading associations), that they may have forgotten that the fact of the genuineness of His Presence does not imply that He is Present as (to put it crudely) a hunk of meat. This kind of materialism undermines the character of the Eucharist as a Sacrament as surely as the teaching of the Reformers undermines its character as a Sacrifice​

Ultrarealism was suggested in the 11th century by Berengarius of Tours - which would explain why it may have not lived on in the memory of Catholics in the way that the ideas of Protestants about the Eucharist have. It was an honourable error in a way, because this was several decades before the word “transubstantiation” came into use.

See catholic-forum.com/saintS/ncd03106.htm - especially this part:

…The mode of Christ’s presence is spirit-like, somewhat as the soul in the body. He is whole and entire in the whole Host and whole and entire in every part thereof. At one and the same time He exists in heaven and in many different places on earth. From the Real Presence it follows that He is to be adored. It is evident that the Eucharist is a sacrament, for it is a visible sign of invisible grace instituted by Christ. Its principal effect is the union of the soul with Christ by love, and spiritual nourishment by increasing sanctifying grace…

[My emphasis]

 

[Wildkit]

Hi,

I havent heard of any miracles Unless it is on the news I dont know much of what you are talking about I guess because, as a protestant, I was not taught this growing up.

The Eucharist is a different bible interpretation then the CC. Since we dont believe the same way we do not think it is a miracle.

ALLFORHIM,

I agree, I heard that nonsense too and I am not going to believe it either. As allischamers articulates, when they prove it is Christ’s blood, he’ll believe it then and remain Presbyterian, Methodist or I mean Baptist or whatever!

We all know that the cardiac surgeons and the tools they had in central Italy were way ahead of their time than normally thought of for the 700’s AD. Yet, I guess I have a hard time explaining why this supposed flesh is not dust now.

What’s even more strange that before the blood type technology we have today, when they developed scales with the necessary precision for accurate recordings, the blood droplets all either weighed the same or some other nonsense, even though they are of different sizes. Some people might try to say that their God is trying to say something to them? Imagine, in the 700’s,……why how many people even knew about this miracle unless you are from that area? Wow,……this internet thing is cool!!! Do you think if we had the level of communication then as we do today, there would even be a Baptist religion?

We’re beyond the issue of whether this is human flesh and blood. Why does all this non sense always happen to the Episcopalians, no I mean Mormons, no Anglicans (sorry ###GottleofGreer###)……er no, why is this non sense always, and I mean always with the Catholic Church?

I would like someone to straighten me out here!

 

[Atreyu]

But remember, this is only one of many miracles attributed to the Catholic Church’s history - there are also the preserved bodies of Saints, another one you can still go visit today, in tact, without any unnatural preservatation applied - the name is slipping my mind at the moment, I’m sure any other well school Catholic here could provide that. There are the corpses of Saints with the aroma of flowers, and lists of other miracles…

St Francis Xavier perhaps?

 

[tigerlily]

Hi,

I havent heard of any miracles Unless it is on the news I dont know much of what you are talking about I guess because, as a protestant, I was not taught this growing up.

The Eucharist is a different bible interpretation then the CC. Since we dont believe the same way we do not think it is a miracle.

i am exactly the same. i only know about the miracles because i’ve tried to find out more. it always seems that these miracles only happen to catholics and are therefore for catholics only. this sounds envious and that’s because it is. i recently watched ‘song of bernadette’ and it really made me think, why are protestants so utterly closed off to these things? its sad and yet incredibly confusing at the same time.

i try to keep an open mind and try to learn more via this forum and other websites. i just think it doesn’t hurt to know more whatever faith you come from.

 

[mark_a]

When DNA testing proves it is the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ then I will believe it.

forever Baptist
allischalmers

And here’s an excellent example of fundie attitude.
But most go even further, by CONDEMNING anything similar.

Is there anything wrong with not believing these miracles? Probably not.

Is there anything wrong with hitching your wagon to these occurances only?
Probably so.

I know a fundie who saw something supernatural (he thinks it was an angel). Do I believe him? 1000%

You kill faith when you remove mystery.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

i am exactly the same. i only know about the miracles because i’ve tried to find out more. it always seems that these miracles only happen to catholics and are therefore for catholics only. this sounds envious and that’s because it is. i recently watched ‘song of bernadette’ and it really made me think, why are protestants so utterly closed off to these things? its sad and yet incredibly confusing at the same time.

i try to keep an open mind and try to learn more via this forum and other websites. i just think it doesn’t hurt to know more whatever faith you come from.

Hi,

I wonder why this mircle is not being shouted from the roof tops to the whole world. Wouldnt you think the CC would want everyone to know the truth. I had the opportunity to talk to 5 catholics after I read this today and not one of them has ever heard of this. I would think that if this was true(not convinced) at minimal all catholics would know.

I would especially think this would be a great tool for teaching atheists about GOD. IMHO I think it may not be being shouted from the roof tops because the Vatican is not completely convinced–otherwise they should be telling the WORLD. With the communication network we have-- all you need is the WWW and ABC<CBS<NBC<CNN<FOXNEWS you get the point.

 

[jmcrae]

i am exactly the same. i only know about the miracles because i’ve tried to find out more. it always seems that these miracles only happen to catholics and are therefore for catholics only. this sounds envious and that’s because it is.

Hey - the door is open and the lights are on; Father is waiting for your phone call. Come on home …

 

[Alchemist]

It’s interesting the whole non decaying thing. But the story of Rasputin is also pretty interesting.

Anyway I really would like to see the lab report of this thing here so we could recreate the experiment ourselves.

Here’s a conversation I had with a Muslim friend of mine.

A-man
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
yo what do you make of this?

Athar
i don’t know, it seems difficult to believe that someone could prove in 1970 that something a few hundred years ago was actually flesh. considering, you know, that flesh is biodegradable and all that

A-man
yeah
a link to that was posted on a catholic forum
and they said that scientific investication confirmed that it was actually flesh and blood
blood type AB positive

Athar
right, but i’m doubting the scientific evidence
it sounds like hearsay at this point

A-man
i’ve really never heard of this before
people on the forum were saying “oh if the internet existed back then when this happened then there wouldn’t be any protestant religions at all”

Athar
because everyone believes everything they read on the internet?
haha

A-man
yeah man
i dunno, i really haven’t heard about this before
but people on the message board have mentioned it
being told to them in the past

Athar
oh

A-man
but hey look at this
“The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.”
UNQUESTIONABLE SCIENTIFIC PRECISION

Athar
haha
margin of error = 0
in fact
margin of error < 0

A-man
scienctific precision has never been questionable ever
has it?

Athar
that’s right. the experiment is so accurate that…actually i’m not quite sure what a negative margin of error would be

A-man
haha

A-man
wait a sec
if i handed in a lab report that looked like this site
i’d totally fail

Athar
right

A-man
i’m trying to look up Prof. Odoardo Linoli
wikipedia and google should team up
and maybe yield results

 

[happygal]

Well miracle happened not only the the Catholic community but also to the protestant as well. As long as God is there his power will follows. That is why even God can give miracle to non believer when comes to healing, the lamb walk, the blind can see…So praise the Lord about that.

 

[Sabda]

Hi,

I wonder why this mircle is not being shouted from the roof tops to the whole world. Wouldnt you think the CC would want everyone to know the truth. I had the opportunity to talk to 5 catholics after I read this today and not one of them has ever heard of this. I would think that if this was true(not convinced) at minimal all catholics would know.

I would especially think this would be a great tool for teaching atheists about GOD. IMHO I think it may not be being shouted from the roof tops because the Vatican is not completely convinced–otherwise they should be telling the WORLD. With the communication network we have-- all you need is the WWW and ABC<CBS<NBC<CNN<FOXNEWS you get the point.

It’s very simple ALLFORHIM why you do not see this on the news. They, media, would not believe it. Also, keep in mind that this is something that the Church has known about for centuries. It’s not something new to the Church. Another thing to keep in mind it takes faith to believe. As we have already seen on this board there are some who do not believe. All the information in the world will not make them believe unless they have the faith to do so.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

It’s very simple ALLFORHIM why you do not see this on the news. They, media, would not believe it. Also, keep in mind that this is something that the Church has known about for centuries. It’s not something new to the Church. Another thing to keep in mind it takes faith to believe. As we have already seen on this board there are some who do not believe. All the information in the world will not make them believe unless they have the faith to do so.

Hi,
Yes I believe all that you say, but still why keep it under wraps for 8 centuries. They should not want to keep it a secret. They should let the world know and let people make up their own minds. It is suspicious when they do not want to share something with the world.

 

[tigerlily]

It’s very simple ALLFORHIM why you do not see this on the news. They, media, would not believe it. Also, keep in mind that this is something that the Church has known about for centuries. It’s not something new to the Church. Another thing to keep in mind it takes faith to believe. As we have already seen on this board there are some who do not believe. All the information in the world will not make them believe unless they have the faith to do so.

sabda you’re SO right! all for him look at tv today. its full of documentaries disproving this and that. the world is conspiracy crazy because these days people need concrete unshakeable proof before they’ll even consider something and that includes anything connected with religion.

this is a big generalisation but it seems these days some people want instant gratification and faith/religion does not permit this. this is another reason for the lack of coverage. oh and of course the political things that are going on. the anti islam documentaries in the uk are rife and this includes christianity. there was a series on the bbc a few months ago which disproved the miracles of jesus and re enacted them in a ‘logical’ way ie the feeding the 5000 story was done as if jesus told everyone to share and didn’t perform a miracle.

i’m not saying i’m not like this, unfortunately i am but its something i recognise and i’m always learning. my confusion is a lot it is to do with the media. if you’re in the uk, did you see the doomsday code on channel four? apparently john who wrote the book revelations took some magic mushrooms and hence was inspired. i felt like i’d been smacked in the face watching the darn thing!

even if you can’t believe in these miracles, read the stories, i promise you’ll be moved by them. i want to believe in them BECAUSE they are so touching and beautiful.

well i’d better stop waffling!

 

[mark_a]

I wonder why this mircle is not being shouted from the roof tops to the whole world. Wouldnt you think the CC would want everyone to know the truth.

I’m assuming you must be very young and that you assume the internet has always been around, making it easy for even marginal (most of us) Catholics to get this type of information.

How long has the Shroud of Turin been around? I’ve only known about it for 15 years. Has the Church done everything possible to scientifically prove or disprove that the shroud is what it is believed to be? You betcha. Has the shroud been scientifically proven (or disproven) to be Jesus’ burial cloth? Nope. Has the Church declared one way or the other? Nope.

How long has stigmata been around? Catholics hardly have a lock on this one, but I’ve only known about it for 5 years.

The Catholic Church is the most sceptical of all concerning these things. We’re still anxiously waiting for a pronouncement on the Blessed Virgin Mary grilled cheese sandwich on Ebay.

I had the opportunity to talk to 5 catholics after I read this today and not one of them has ever heard of this. I would think that if this was true(not convinced) at minimal all catholics would know.

Here’s a comparison for ya:
How many Evangelicals know the Rev. Billy Graham has an honorary degree from Belmont Abbey (Catholic monastary and college)??

I would think that if this was true (and it is) at minimal all evangelicals would know and that all (not just plenty, google it and see) of evangelicals would bash Rev. Graham for accepting a degree from a Catholic monastary/college.

See what happens when we assume?

And don’t get me started on Juan Diedo’s cloak.

 

[tigerlily]

Hey - the door is open and the lights are on; Father is waiting for your phone call. Come on home …

thank you for that! i’d like to but i don’t live my life the way a catholic should so i couldn’t be hypocritical.

i guess you could say i’m a big fan.

 

[dosdog]

Hi,
Yes I believe all that you say, but still why keep it under wraps for 8 centuries. They should not want to keep it a secret. They should let the world know and let people make up their own minds. It is suspicious when they do not want to share something with the world.

They have a hearing problem

Included on this page are descriptions of just a few of these miracles. All of them have received full approval by the Church.
Most Eucharistic miracles involve incidences in which the Host has “turned into human flesh and blood”.
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

 

[mark_a]

but i don’t live my life the way a catholic should.

None of us do!!!

 

[tigerlily]

None of us do!!!

haha! i’m sure that’s not 100 per cent true!

 

[Texan_in_DC]

As a Former Protestant I was unaware of any Miracles of the Saints and any Miracles of the Eucharist actually turning into felsh and blood in a physical reality. When I 1st found out about these rare occurences in history of the Eucharsit I still questioned the truth of the story because I did not believe.

Here are the facts:

The Eucharist has turned into true flesh and true blood in the physical reality of it more than once.

That Blood is blood type AB

The Flesh was tissue from a heart

The (name removed by moderator)rint of Jesus Christ on the turick is and still is AB blood

Jesus Christ himself actually said more than once that this is trully trully my flesh and trully trully my blood, who ever eat my flesh and drinks my blood will inherit the kingdom of God.

To all of you non catholic christians the proof is all there, the facts are proven by science, it is right in front of each and every one of you, the only thing is missing is your faith in Jesus Christ own words, through the lack of faith, you do not believe.

Yes you believe in Jesus Christ but this is the ultimate test of faith, this is indeed a hard teaching and thats why almost all of His disciples left Him and went back to their old jewish traditions, and again Jesus Christ asked His own 12 Apostles if they too were going to leave Him. This is where Saint Peter the 1st Pope said to where would we go? You are the Son of God, if you say it is your flesh and your blood then how can I disagree. St. Peter did not understand, as well as the others but their faith kept them believing, they did not need scientific proof, or even today with faith you shouldnt need it to be proven that the blood is actually from Jesus, anyone who ask this should be asking Jesus for the gift of faith even when it is a hard teaching.

Just something to think about when you go to your church and listen to your preacher give a sermon on how he interprets the bible.