Miracles to convince me, a non-believer

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I thought I would start a thread by explaining the view of a non-believer about miracle claims and what would need to be demonstrated to convince me. First, there is the question of what a miracle claim would convince me of, since a miracle could be done (some say) by another god, or a demon. For the sake of this discussion I will say that I would presume, after seeing evidence of an actual supernatural event, that it was cause by the spiritual being to whom prayers were directed prior.

Such a miracle would need to be something that could not happen naturally. Examples would be a person developing wheels in their feet operating on axles; the creation of a species with no genetic link to any other living thing; the resurrection of someone who had been cremated; a five year old revealing the meaning of Etruscan writing; a talking snake; someone walking on water. Excluded would be things that happen rely but naturally, like spontaneous remission of disease.

It would also need to be performed in conditions that prevent fraud, such a supervision by expert conjurors and multiple cameras. This would exclude, for example, all ‘eucharistic miracles’ I have heard of.

And then, it would need to be repeated, just as repeated results are required for scientific findings.

Evidence for the miracle would need to be published and subject to peer review.

Something like that would be pretty convincing to me. Please let me know when it happens.
 
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When I was feeling like I was in a pit of despair, as an atheist, I looked up at my ceiling and said “look you son of a ***** if you’re there and want me make it known”.

He did.

That’s all I got.
 
What’s the point?

It’s called a faith, not a proof.

Having said that, it is not a blind faith. It is faith combined with reason. I have experienced miracles, but so what? I don’t have video and the exhaustive list of proofs that you require.

Rather, where is your exhaustive proof that God does not exist?

That is going to be a tough one.
 
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po18guy said:
What’s the point?

It’s called a faith, not a proof.
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The point is that claims of miracles are claims of things that can be tested against evidence. “There is a God” cannot be disproved. “Person walks on water” can be disproved. Claim the first and I won’t bother arguing. Claim the second and I will because you are making claims about the material world.
 
Not getting your point. A historical occurrence is demonstrated by the testimony of those who observed it or otherwise experienced it. We are not talking the sensual realm here, but the supernatural. The transcendent. If you have difficulty with the concept of the transcendent, this is going to be a tough sell.
 
po18guy said:
Not getting your point. A historical occurrence is demonstrated by the testimony of those who observed it or otherwise experienced it. We are not talking the sensual realm here, but the supernatural. The transcendent. If you have difficulty with the concept of the transcendent, this is going to be a tough sell.
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What is the supernatural and how may I know it is real? What is the transcendent and how may I know it is real? Anecdote is not something I accept as evidence unless it can be repeated as an experience under experimental conditions. “I prayed to Zeus and my cat got better” does not mean anything useful to me.
 
FiveLinden said:
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The people asked Jesus to leave after he cast the demons from the man to the swine. The the chief priests and the Pharisees were afraid of loosing power.
Matthew 8:28-34
Jesus Casts Out Demons
28 When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. 29 And they cried out, saying, “[a]What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?” 30 Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them. 31 The demons began to entreat Him, saying, “If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine.” 32 And He said to them, “Go!” And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters. 33 The herdsmen ran away, and went to the city and reported everything, [c]including what had happened to the demoniacs. 34 And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus; and when they saw Him, they implored Him to leave their region.
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John 11 (Raising of Lazarus from the dead)
14 So then Jesus said to them clearly, “Lazarus has died. 15 And I am glad for you that I was not there, that you may believe. Let us go to him.” …
17 When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. …
39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the dead man’s sister, said to him, “Lord, by now there will be a stench; he has been dead for four days.” 40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believe you will see the glory of God?” …
43 And when he had said this, he cried out in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, tied hand and foot with burial bands, and his face was wrapped in a cloth. So Jesus said to them, “Untie him and let him go.” …
45 Now many of the Jews who had come to Mary and seen what he had done began to believe in him. 46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47 So the chief priests and the Pharisees convened the Sanhedrin and said, “What are we going to do? This man is performing many signs. 48 If we leave him alone, all will believe in him, and the Romans will come[j] and take away both our land and our nation.”
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Stories written years after the events they purport to report in an entirely different language from the participants do not represent evidence. They are stories of no more value than any other stories.
 
FiveLinden said:
Stories written years after the events they purport to report in an entirely different language from the participants do not represent evidence. They are stories of no more value than any other stories.
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Collins Dictionary
1. uncountable noun [NOUN that, NOUN to-infinitive]
Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.
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Vico said:
  1. uncountable noun [NOUN that, NOUN to-infinitive]
    Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened
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Yes. The point is that evidence of the sort I describe does not cause me to believe and is, therefore, not evidence.
 
FiveLinden said:
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Vico:
  1. uncountable noun [NOUN that, NOUN to-infinitive]
    Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened
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Yes. The point is that evidence of the sort I describe does not cause me to believe and is, therefore, not evidence.
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Yes, it is not evidence for you.

[Edited later:] This is as expected, Luke 16
31 Then Abraham said, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’”
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Faith is not perceptible to the senses. In that regard, you may never be convinced. You demand proof. Proof generally runs contrary to faith. Yet, you cannot live without faith in something. You have faith primarily in your senses, but what if they are lying to you?

I don’t believe that Australia exists. I’ve never seen it, touched it, tasted it, smelled it or heard it. Pictures, videos, testimony of travelers? All could be faked. Therefore, it does not exist. People talk about it, but people say lots of things. Why should I believe them?

Not believing, contrary to the mountains of evidence, is not realistic. Even irrational. This applies to both realms.
 
Yes but the claim that Australia exists is subject to proof. You can go there and have crocodile for dinner. All I am saying is that miracles, to persuade me of spiritual intervention in the material world, should meet appropriate standards of proof. They are not purely ‘faith’ claims. They are also claims of actual material events. This part of claims of miracles can and should be tested to appropriately extraordinary standards, given the extraordinary nature of the claims.
 
And eternity is a proof - as you and I will both be there - in my case very soon. Your doubts may stem from a lack of knowledge of or experience with the transcendent. Until and unless one grasps that concept, there is little progress to be made in dialog. Might I kindly suggest that you look into the concept of transcendence first rather than at a particular belief system within the realm of transcendence?

It is the groundwork which must be laid for understanding of the other’s thoughts.
 
Awesome! Here are some Islamic miracles backed by science. See the problem?

www.quranreading.com

Miracles of The Holy Quran (Scientific Perspective) - Islamic Articles

The word “miracle” literally means “any happening that is beyond imagination, and is generally associated with supernatural happenings and Godly matters”, e.g. mysterious nature Bermuda Triangle, and its working which is still unknown in this technological age. Alternatively, it could also be...
www.quranreading.com www.quranreading.com
 
No, actually, I do not. I do not see how your article and Fr. Spitzer’s article are at all equivalent.

You are welcome to explain it to me.
 
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