Miracles to convince me, a non-believer

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I am aware of zero Islamic miracles (outside of the Quran, which we know is not true). The whole world knows about Fatima. See the difference @wkj_123?
 
KJW5551 said:
The whole world knows about Fatima
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Really? Everyone? Come on @kjw5551 Islam predicted the amount of joints in the human body. Islam says 360 joints, modern science says 360 joints. This wasn’t a known fact at the time. How can we explain a miracle like that!
 
Let us avoid logical fallacy. The existence of false gods does not render the True God also false. The alleged miracles in other religions stand as evidence only of the supernatural, not necessarily that God caused them. I remember here the princedom in which we live, and his ability to deceive. The Catholic Church has developed the most advanced, science-backed methodology for declaring miracles to a moral certainty. As well, the Church is never in a hurry to rubber stamp events as miracles.
 
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That is not a miracle. Produce for us one (1) Islamic miracle outside of the Quran.

Also, yes, most people know about Fatima…I’ll be careful not to say “everyone” around you although it’s a common colloquially expression.
 
po18guy said:
Let us avoid logical fallacy. The existence of false gods does not render the True God also false. The alleged miracles in other religions stand as evidence only of the supernatural, not necessarily that God caused them. I remember here the princedom in which we live, and his ability to deceive. The Catholic Church has developed the most advanced, science-backed methodology for declaring miracles to a moral certainty. As well, the Church is never in a hurry to rubber stamp events as miracle
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For a non believer what fool proof method can be used to determine which miracle is from God and which isn’t?
 
Honestly, most people don’t know about Fatima. Other than Catholics virtually no one I come in contact with on a daily basis has ever heard of Fatima.
 
FiveLinden said:
I thought I would start a thread by explaining the view of a non-believer about miracle claims and what would need to be demonstrated to convince me. First, there is the question of what a miracle claim would convince me of, since a miracle could be done (some say) by another god, or a demon. For the sake of this discussion I will say that I would presume, after seeing evidence of an actual supernatural event, that it was cause by the spiritual being to whom prayers were directed prior.

Such a miracle would need to be something that could not happen naturally. Examples would be a person developing wheels in their feet operating on axles; the creation of a species with no genetic link to any other living thing; the resurrection of someone who had been cremated; a five year old revealing the meaning of Etruscan writing; a talking snake; someone walking on water. Excluded would be things that happen rely but naturally, like spontaneous remission of disease.

It would also need to be performed in conditions that prevent fraud, such a supervision by expert conjurors and multiple cameras. This would exclude, for example, all ‘eucharistic miracles’ I have heard of.

And then, it would need to be repeated, just as repeated results are required for scientific findings.

Evidence for the miracle would need to be published and subject to peer review.

Something like that would be pretty convincing to me. Please let me know when it happens.
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NOT even being before God in the flesh, seeing first hand His miracles that would be impossible for the normal human to perform, and they still walked away from Him because they had
no faith
 
For anything to be foolproof, one must eliminate the fools. Non-believers were and are not convinced, even if someone rises from the dead.

It is a dead issue for non-believers.

Rather, spend your irreplaceable energy and time on an inquiry into the transcendent. That is the bridge to cross before any progress may be made, or illumination received.
 
No it has not happened. You are not going to get miracles like that, on your conditions and to test the Lord God.

Miracles can be anything that is caused by God’s will, which include even a change of mind and character of a person.

Miracles are not primarily to convince non-believers but so that the glory of God may be known for the believers, that they be edified and encouraged as they walk in their spiritual journey.
 
Our Lady of Guadalupe and Miracle of Fatima. It’s very important to look at the best arguments coming from both sides and make a conclusion. Do a lot of research. These are probably two of the greatest miracles our Church holds (well, besides the obvious). What will help you is being open minded, not rationalistic, but logical and observant.

https://cruxnow.com/faith/2014/12/12/four-awesome-facts-about-our-lady-of-guadalupe/

http://johnhaffert.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Meet-the-Witnesses-91511.pdf
(witnesses of the Miracle of Fatima, which would include people of all faiths and beliefs, not just Catholics)
 
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Miracles to convince me, a non-believer Apologetics
Fr. Spritzer SJ has written an article about miracles that pass scientific muster:
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I’m just going to point you back to Father Spitzer’s 25 page article on scientifically tested modern miracles. It will be an interesting read for you.

You might be shocked to discover that the church uses actual scientists (preferably atheists) to probe for a scientific rationale for the alleged miracle. This is why causes for sainthood usually take decades to conclude.
 
The most obvious example is the miracle at Fatima… It cannot be disputed and I certainly challenge you to try doing so after you read up on it. It was predicted 3 months ahead of time by 3 children who said a lady from heaven told them it would happen. 70,000 people showed up and a major event happened. Thousands of people submitted testimonials to the Catholic Church, and after 13 years of investigation, the Catholic Church announced in 1930 that the miracle was worthy of belief. Read up on it, it’s fascinating!

There are many other miracles that you can look up that are just as astounding, like the healings that Lourdes, France, and the incorruptibles, but I would start with Fatima.
 
mrsdizzyd said:
Fr. Spritzer SJ has written an article about miracles that pass scientific muster:
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Father Spitzer’s article describes nothing I would accept as evidence of a miracle. I know how the Church uses scientists in relation to claims of miracles. It typically uses Catholics, and does not do research in a scientific way, and (especially) does not publish actual peer reviewed scientific papers.
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The image of Jesus on the Shroud of Turin is a miracle that you can actually witness in real time. This image was caused by a proton radiation that was left as His corpse vanished into anther dimension. That same disappearance also left a neutron radiation that resulted in an enhanced carbon fourteen content in the Shroud which was discovered in a 1988 test. For the full story, I recommend a recent work called:
TEST THE SHROUD, Antonacci, 2015
 
FiveLinden said:
a talking snake
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A talking snake would be pretty interesting to witness. There were movies made about Mister Ed, the talking horse, but I haven’t heard about a talking snake recently. Although there was that story in Genesis 3:1 was it?

 
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Looking for proof of God in miracles might not be the best way to discern whether or not God exists. Nobody here is going to offer the OP an example of a miracle that the OP hasn’t already refuted. As a Catholic, I find reports of miracles to not be all that helpful as a tool of conversion. They’re great for strengthening the faith of those who already believe. I read a book about a year ago called Thoughtful Theism which handles the question of “if there is a God” through philosophy. There’s also a great chapter on science and the Church in there. I think it could be an interesting read for a non-believer. I don’t remember it being all that long.
 
undead_rat said:
The image of Jesus on the Shroud of Turin is a miracle that you can actually witness in real time. This image was caused by a proton radiation that was left as His corpse vanished into anther dimension. That same disappearance also left a neutron radiation that resulted in an enhanced carbon fourteen content in the Shroud which was discovered in a 1988 test. For the full story, I recommend a recent work called:
TEST THE SHROUD, Antonacci, 2015
Click to expand...
 
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