Miracles to convince me, a non-believer

[Bradskii]

No. I am a roman catholic. You are on a roman catholic website. Name one apparition the Vatican claimed was false, that you believe in.

If you want to talk to Coptic Orthodox catholics find a different website.

You are an aetheist on a roman catholic website, this thread is on a roman catholic website, asking for evidence of miracles of God, from Roman catholics.

So you don’t believe in God because he works miracles for all Christians?

Dumb logic.
So what if God chooses to do miracles for all christians rather than just Roman catholics. They worship the same God we do.

Yes I am on a Roman Catholic website (this one).And I am talking to a Roman Catholic (you) about a miracle from God (your God) which was represented by an apparition of Mary (I think you know her).

And you keep talking about how no-one is examining evidence. Yet no-one seems at all interested in a miracle that was witnessed by hundreds of thousands. I would like to know why.

 

[YoungCatholicGuy]

Your logic is flawed.
You say there is no Roman Catholic God, because of a Coptic Orthodox religion apparition, which you already said you don’t believe in. So because you don’t believe in a Coptic Orthodox apparition which had lots of evidence according to you, this makes every Roman Catholic Apparition false??

You state there is no God,
Because a Coptic apparition was left to make their own decision on a Coptic apparition.

So according to you because the Pope left a Coptic Apparition to the Coptic faith to validify, that there must be no God?

Either God is real or He isn’t.
You state God isn’t real because the Pope left a Coptic Apparition to the Coptic to validify, that there must be no God?

So if the entomologists left a decision up to the ornithologists, to make up their own decision about a scientific matter relating to birds, that means there is no such thing as birds???

Also: you have not provided one Roman Catholic Apparition that the Vatican stated was false.
Reason is: any apparition the Vatican stated was false: had clear evidence for demonic activity, or forgery.

 

[guanophore]

Not doesn’t.If you giveth antidote to morphine with a placebo they don’t work.

You might be surprised!

But I did not claim that placebos work at all times with everything. The fact that they work at all indicates that the phenomena of human expectation is very powerful.

This shows they work through the production of chemicals in the body, which morphine is designed to mimic.

Placebos do not produce any chemicals in the body.

Your other points miss my point: I am not claiming that non-material things do not exist.

You have not stated this in as many words, but you are denying the validity of anything that is not thoroughly grounded in materialism. Nothing will be admitted as “proof” which is not.

How would I know.

There are many ways of knowing other than strict physical sciences. You hit the nail on the head. there is a flaw in your epistemology.

I am claiming that if it proposed a not material thing has changed a material thing then that effect can be studied.

It is a false conclusion, based upon a false premise.

If you fell in love with someone, then your feelings changed, what material effect would you study to “prove” your emotions were valid?

The vast majority of the human experience is not confined to the physical plane.

It would be a better debate if you stopped saying unpleasant things about those with whom you disagree.

While I agree, it does come across as intellectually passive to sit back and ask others to “convince me”. The situation is exacerbated by the use of a severely truncated epistemology.

Most Biblical miracles could not have a natural explanation.

How did you come to this conclusion?

If God did miracles of one type then, why would he do only the other type now?

You have made another false conclusion based upon a false premise.

It would be an evidance based debate, if you actually looked at the evidence being provided to you rather than ignoring and refusing to look into any of the evidence provided to you, and instead simply stating you opinions over and over,

It is confirmation bias. I suspect the OP does not really want to be convinced, and is just here to try to put aside that niggling conscience through which God is calling him to faith.

This thread is about attacking catholic beliefs.

One has to wonder why this is important to the OP. But that question would involve motivation and intention, more human qualities that cannot be measured by physical science.

 

[guanophore]

Of course he has. The question is : why does he not so in a way way that persuade?

He does, you have just excluded yourself from being among those who are persuaded.

You were fashioned to seek after God and find Him. You were also fashioned with the free will to reject this call. You can live the remainder of this life in separated from God, followed by an eternity of being separated from Him. He loves you so much He has given you the choice.

the warmth and confidence in your own heart

The OP has decided that these are not valid human experiences, because they cannot be measured by physical science.

Then their is no point what so ever to even going on with this thread, other then looking to dispute every thing that people are trying to help you understand…

Perhaps the exercise in futility will help the OP to understand the need to open himself to the great depth and breadth of human experience that lies beyond material science.

It seems the only miracles you might be interested in are the ones that can’t be proven false.

Shouldn’t this be the case for everyone? Either it is authentic, or not.

The only ones that are going to be put forward cannot be tested. Which, as I said, is quite reasonable. Because faith is a.component of them all.

Of course miracles can be tested, and are tested. The fact that faith is component does not change the facts of what occurred, only the relevance to oneself.

 

[gregoryphealy]

My standard of proof is the same we apply to medicine, bridge-building and car manufacture. We observe how matter behaves and draw conclusions.

Well hold on. Those fields involve natural phenomena that are constantly demonstrable and observable to be true by some approximation. If you’re going to make an analogous scientistic comparison with a god, it necessarily must be a slave-god that will perpetually and predictably act (in the natural world) in accordance with some principle (you’ve suggested prayer). So you’re holding the “supernatural” to a different standard (I put it in quotes because the demonstration of the supernatural you’ve requested could be describable by natural means in 10,000 years) than medicine/engineering/automotive fields by requesting just a “one-off” miracle of sorts. You’re actually committing the “god of the gaps” fallacy, which is ironic because that’s usually a fallacy reserved for religious folk. If this god were to be a slave-god however, it would not be sovereign. Catholics believe that God is sovereign, so you’ve come to the wrong forum if you’re seeking such a god.

‘Faith’ in rejecting these standards of proof is very common and goes beyond religion into things like belief in acupuncture, homeopathy etc, all of which can be shown to not work better than placebo but this fact does not stop many people spending money on them.

Your comparison is drawing false equivalence between natural acts which claim to produce natural results that they do not, and a supernatural entity that no reasonable person would claim exists to satisfy some natural result (aside from existence itself). Furthermore, it’s predicated on the notion that science provides the most apt description of reality, which entails a serious misunderstanding of the objectives and limitations of science. To say that science can account for all of reality (the assumption that you’re operating under with your “trials” by scientific method to prove the existence of God) is akin to saying metal is all that exists because that’s all a metal detector can detect. Science is reductive by nature. It takes observable phenomena and reduces it to quantifiable metrics. But much like the metal detector, those metrics aren’t all that is real. And in fact the very assertion that science provides the best description of reality is not provable by science. It’s self-refuting.

 

[Bradskii]

Bradskii:

It seems the only miracles you might be interested in are the ones that can’t be proven false.

Shouldn’t this be the case for everyone?

The fact that you can ask such a question indicates that I am wasting my time on this particular subject…

 

[YoungCatholicGuy]

So you are only interested in miracles that can be proven as false, but not interested in the miracles that can be proven as real?
So you want to ignore evidence for God no matter what and only look at false apparitions deliberately?

Weird logic…

 

[YoungCatholicGuy]

Aetheist starts thread asking for evidence for God.
Then he spends the whole thread without looking into even one of the links/ websites/ historic evidence/ scientific evidence/ medical evidence provided to him, and spends the whole thread stating his opposition opinion about evidence he has not even looked into yet that was provided in this thread,

Good thing court cases don’t make rulings based on ‘opinion’ but actually look at concrete evidence and research on both sides.

 

[Bradskii]

I gave up on expecting you to read what I write quite a few posts ago. Thanks for playing. You have a good one, OK?

 

[YoungCatholicGuy]

If you want to base your belief that the Roman Catholic God doesn’t exist, because of an apparition in a completely different religion (that you also don’t believe in),

that is weird logic,

It is your decision to turn your back on God.
God has not turned His back on you.
He loves you.
He has always provided for you. Anything good you have came from Him.

This decision of yours to go online and attack catholic beliefs each day, because of an apparition in a different religion that you don’t believe in being the basis that all apparitions must be false too? So if one person is an imposter that means everyone is an imposter?

You only want to look at apparitions with ‘question marks’ over them, because your heart is not in a place right now to look into the evidence that is there is in approved evidence-based miracles, that God is real.

God has special plans for you. And a peace the world cannnot give.

 

[FiveLinden]

Placebos do not produce any chemicals in the body

yes, they do. read the science.

 

[YoungCatholicGuy]

What placebo caused thousands of people including aetheists, to see Our Lady at Fatima’s last apparition?

 

[YoungCatholicGuy]

What Placobo caused the scientifically proven Eucharistic Miracle of Laciano to turn into Jesus actual flesh and blood and remain incorrupt for 300 years?

 

[YoungCatholicGuy]

So placebos cure cancer/ make the blind see/ make the lame walk/ make the deaf hear (even if people medically were proven to have incurable diseases since birth), ? Such as having no ear drums and then after prayer having ear drums? Such as having no eye pupils and after prayer having eye pupils? (Vatican approved catholic charismatic healings and medically proven miracles from saints such as Padre Pio who only died in 1968).

So placebos can instantly grow ear drums where there was none?

And placebos can instantly shrink brain tumors into disappearing completely? (Known to happen at Vatican approved catholic charismatic prayer meetings, and be medically attested to by doctors)

And placebos can regrow eye pupils?

Where does ‘science’ say this?

 

[guanophore]

The fact that you can ask such a question indicates that I am wasting my time on this particular subject…

I guess so. I don’t think any reasonable person should cling to
“miracle” that can be proven false. Talk about blind faith! that is like refusing to use your common sense, not to mention ignoring your senses.

 

[guanophore]

yes, they do. read the science.

It is not the placebos that do it, it is EXPECTATION!!!

 

[PetraG]

I don’t think you quite understand the place miracles have in the economy of faith. They are not the means by which God buys people into belief. They are, rather, the fruit of trust placed in God.

Consider the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, which Jesus concluded in this way:
Then [the rich man in torment] said [to Abraham, who was in paradise], ‘Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment.’
But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’
He said, ‘Oh no, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
Then Abraham said, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’ (Luke 16:27-31)

Contrast it with the account of the healing of the centurion’s servant:
When he entered Capernaum, a centurion approached him and appealed to him, saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, suffering dreadfully.”
He said to him, “I will come and cure him.”
The centurion said in reply, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you enter under my roof; only say the word and my servant will be healed. For I too am a person subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come here,’ and he comes; and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Amen, I say to you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith. I say to you, many will come from the east and the west, and will recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the banquet in the kingdom of heaven, but the children of the kingdom will be driven out into the outer darkness, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.” And Jesus said to the centurion, “You may go; as you have believed, let it be done for you.” And at that very hour the servant was healed. (Matt. 8: 5-13)

People don’t magically accept the need to have faith because they see miracles. Miracles, rather, happen to those who choose to accept the faith they are offered, or the faith they ask to be given.

 

[FiveLinden]

So placebos cure cancer/ make the blind see/ make the lame walk/ make the deaf hear (even if people medically were proven to have incurable diseases since birth), ? Such as having no ear drums and then after prayer having ear drums?

No, of course that is not what I am saying about placebos. Your use of hyperbole does not help your advocacy. If you have evidence of your ear drum miracle I would be most impressed.

 

[Bradskii]

I guess so. I don’t think any reasonable person should cling to “miracle” that can be proven false.

C’mon guys. This is basic English comprehension. I haven’t said one should cling to a miracle that HAS been proved false. I am saying that the only miracles that are worth suporting are those that are FALSIFIABLE.

For example, if you simply say that you had a vision from God last night, that is not falsifiable. It is therefore worthless as a means to progress any debate.

Does that make sense?

 

[Limoncello4021]

Our faith doesn’t hang on miracles, but frankly I wonder how anyone can not see miracles all around us. Creation, the seasons, the marvelous nature of the human body, a baby, etc. etc. I think people need to start to look around and reflect. All of nature “tells” of the glory of God if only we have the eyes to look.
Where do you think YOU came from? Just a random accident of the universe?