Misguided Loyalties and the Military

[joe_clark]

War is sad, very sad. When one human being estinquishes a lifre of another. If you are to defend yourself or the life of another, the killing another human being should be a last resort. They say war is a failure to communicate and war is a political means to an end.

With Iraq this was not a last resort. this was planned years before it’s inception. There was purpose and intent to decieve A. The American public Then 2. the world to include the UN. There was no immediate threat from Iraq as reports were comming in that Iraq had NO weapons of Mass destruction. “Had them at one time” does not rise to the level of commencing a war. Setting up C. Powell to display photos of mobile weapon installations to get the UN to vote for War on Iraq, only to find they were mobile PORT O POTTIES! Color coded alerts designed to scare the American people into war, giving up some of our rights, just a little and for a short time the press was frightened to speak up and challenge any of this because they would be black balled.

What do we Americans have to show for it?

Duck tape and plastic, shaded color coded alerts that MAB would love, over 3,000 American human beings liquidated, not counting the innocent people in Iraq , 8 trillion dollars in Iraq, the red state - the blue state the conservative-the liberal and people still in fantasy land looking for the WMD’s.

In WWII and Germany, America had no choice. Innocent human beings were being murdered by the thousands and it would be only a matter of time WHEN they would come for us. This was a real danger. Iraq was a set-up.

Since we are still breathing, we have a chance to turn this around. Walk softly and carry a big stick. We need to get back to our intial position in the world. Respected, honored, respectful of human life, and yes constantly working to aid and assist countries that long for freedom, but only when they make the request. Freedom must come from the inside out, not the like Iraq from the outside in. We must remember that we are one billion people rolled up into one. We are on the same boat and the same sea. When it rains we all get wet.

 

[vern_humphrey]

In WWII and Germany, America had no choice. Innocent human beings were being murdered by the thousands and it would be only a matter of time WHEN they would come for us. This was a real danger. Iraq was a set-up.

On 9/11, they did come for us. Nineteen terrorists killed as many Americans on 9/11 as the entire Japanese Navy did at Pearl Harbor.

We are now fighting the same organization in Iraq – and bleeding them white.

And the reason it’s lasted so long is that so many people have worked to give the enemy leave to hope that he can win the war, if he just hangs in until we collapse internally.

 

[txsoldier94]

The Iraq Oil Bill has not been passed by the Iraqi Parliament. That link is over a year old.

From The Guardian:

BAGHDAD, Feb 18 (Reuters) - A law that could shape Iraq’s future by clearing the way for investment in its oil fields is deadlocked by a battle for control of the reserves and no end to the impasse is in sight, lawmakers and officials say.
The bill is also meant to share revenue equitably from the world’s third largest oil reserves, thus helping bridge the deep divides between Iraq’s Shi’ites, Sunni Arabs and Kurds.
The one thing all sides agree on is the law is vital to securing foreign investment to boost Iraq’s oil output and rebuild its shattered economy after five years of insurgency and sectarian fighting that has killed tens of thousands of people.
But the law remains stalled by bitter rows between Baghdad and the largely autonomous Kurdistan region in the north over who will control the fields and how revenue will be shared.

Iraq, currently producing some 2.3 million barrels per day, is seeking major investment to tap its reserves and boost output. It holds 115 billion barrels of proven crude oil reserves, surpassed only by Saudi Arabia and Iran.
U.S. officials say the main reason foreign oil majors have avoided Iraq is the lack of the law, not security concerns.

At least four drafts of the oil law have been written, but parliament has been unable to settle on a preferred version.
The cabinet first agreed a draft a year ago. It was sent back after lawmakers were unable to resolve disputes over the rights of regions, notably the Kurdish region, to negotiate contracts with foreign oil firms and whether the federal or regional governments would control the fields.
“The law has been debated for a year, that’s long enough. If we want Iraq’s economy to stand on its own feet, then we should pass it as soon as possible,” Ali Hussain Balou, head of the parliamentary oil and gas committee, told Reuters.
Balou, a Kurd, said he hoped a final draft would be ready for debate in parliament when the legislature returns from its winter recess in the third week of March, although such hopes have been dashed many times before.
The prime minister of the Kurdistan regional government would soon visit Baghdad for talks on the law, he said.

Mik

 

[abu_kamoon]

“On 9/11, they did come for us. Nineteen terrorists killed as many Americans on 9/11 as the entire Japanese Navy did at Pearl Harbor”

Wrong. Iraq never attacked the US. And neither did Afghanistan. We were attacked by Al Qaeda, under the direction of Osama bin Laden.

Our politicians invaded Iraq, primarily to steal their oil, and not for us, but for the big oil companies. Osam bin Laden seems to have been forgotten in all the money that is being made in these undeclared wars.

Wars are started by politicians, who sometimes disguise themselves as religious leaders. The thing to remember is that these radical groups have been around for hundreds of years. They were content to kill each other, or Muslims that they considered heretics. It wasn’t until our politicians interjected our military into their war that we became a target of the terrorists.

Most of the Muslims are nice people. Our polilticians and their lap dogs in the media have demonized them just as the Nazis demonized the Jews. It is a small number or radicals who make up the terrorists.

The longer we continue to occupy these nations in the Middle East, the easier it is for the terrorists to recruit new cannon fodder. We need to disengage our military from all foreign entanglements. Our military exists to defend this nation, not to attack and occupy other nations. our foreign policy has made us subject to terrorist attacks, and weakend our military.

We need to understand that special interests are making huge amounts of money on these adventures. Our politicians are supporting their agenda.

 

[txsoldier94]

“On 9/11, they did come for us. Nineteen terrorists killed as many Americans on 9/11 as the entire Japanese Navy did at Pearl Harbor”

Wrong. Iraq never attacked the US. And neither did Afghanistan. We were attacked by Al Qaeda, under the direction of Osama bin Laden.

It was not claimed that Iraq attacked the US on 9/11, the claim was:

We are now fighting the same organization in Iraq – and bleeding them white.

And we are fighting Al Qaeda in Iraq.

Our politicians invaded Iraq, primarily to steal their oil, and not for us, but for the big oil companies. Osam bin Laden seems to have been forgotten in all the money that is being made in these undeclared wars.

We are precious poor thieves, because the Iraqis seem to still be in charge of their own oil. See the link I posted earlier. OBL is not forgotten…just marginalized.

Wars are started by politicians, who sometimes disguise themselves as religious leaders. The thing to remember is that these radical groups have been around for hundreds of years. They were content to kill each other, or Muslims that they considered heretics. It wasn’t until our politicians interjected our military into their war that we became a target of the terrorists.

I’ll buy this. Wars are started by politicians. Always have been, and the military and civilians in the warzone always pay the price.

The dreams of OBL and crew are to establish a world-wide caliphate. I don’t think they can do that by ignoring us. Not to mention the Islamic occupation of Spain, the Islamic invasion of Gaul (France did not yet exist), the Islamic occupation of India, the invasion of Eastern Europe and occupation of the Balkans…all long before we interjected our military into their affairs.

Most of the Muslims are nice people. Our polilticians and their lap dogs in the media have demonized them just as the Nazis demonized the Jews. It is a small number or radicals who make up the terrorists.

This one…not so much. Yes, there are some really nice people that are Islamic, but too many of them refuse to speak out against the “small number of radicals”. Makes one wonder. The ones that do speak out are threatened and harrassed.

Please give me just ONE example of the main-stream media “demonizing” all Muslims. Just one.

The longer we continue to occupy these nations in the Middle East, the easier it is for the terrorists to recruit new cannon fodder. We need to disengage our military from all foreign entanglements. Our military exists to defend this nation, not to attack and occupy other nations. our foreign policy has made us subject to terrorist attacks, and weakend our military.

See the bit about the Caliphate.

To any student of history, you will find that larger troubles occur when the US turns isolationist. Abandoning Iraq will make what happened in Vietnam and Cambodia in the mid to late '70s look like a picnic.

We need to understand that special interests are making huge amounts of money on these adventures. Our politicians are supporting their agenda.

Proof please.

And you can point to companies like Blackwater and Halliburton, but please remember that many of their people are in Iraq, risking their own lives, and not a few of them are employed by the Iraqis themselves.

Mik

 

[steveandersen]

Actually, the Army existed before the nation. The Army came into existance in 1775, the nation in 1776.

The United States Army couldn’t have existed until there was a United States.

The continental Army came into existence in 1775 under the authority of the 2nd Continental Congress.

The US Congress founded the US Army in 1784. After the adoption of the articles of confederation and the disbanding of the Continental Army

Which is the point – the United States had no Cromwell. Washington** could** have been a king. The Army could have ruled the country – but chose the better way.

You think the people that just fought to throw out George III’s armies would have rolled over for George I?

The Army may have tried to rule the country but I don’t know if it would have been a success.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The United States Army couldn’t have existed until there was a United States.

On June 14th, 1775, the Continental Congress voted to adopt the New England Army, then beseiging Boston. That same afternoon, they voted to raise 10 companies of riflemen from the mountains of Virginia.

The continental Army came into existence in 1775 under the authority of the 2nd Continental Congress.

And the United States came into existance on July 4th, 1776, more than a year later.

The US Congress founded the US Army in 1784. After the adoption of the articles of confederation and the disbanding of the Continental Army

The Army was never totally disbanded – Battery D, 5th Field Artillery is an original Continental Army unit.

You think the people that just fought to throw out George III’s armies would have rolled over for George I?

The Army threw out George III’s armies. The plotters hoped that if they forced Washington to take over, the Army would follow.

The Army may have tried to rule the country but I don’t know if it would have been a success.

Cromwell and his army ruled England for quite a while.

 

[Curt]

Our right to political and religous freedom comes from God. As the founding fathers of the USA stated:*We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.*also see:Religious freedom is the first of our freedoms and lies at the heart of human rights from the perspective of Catholic teaching. Faith is oriented to the ultimate concern and purpose of human life. To deny religious freedom is to rob human persons of the ultimate meaning and direction of their lives. Constraining religious liberty diminishes our humanity.
Letter to Representative Smith on the 2006 Annual Report on Religious FreedomBishop Thomas Wenski, December 20, 2006

Also see the Catholic Catechism section 2273

In some countries those rights are defended by the military, and in some countries they are not. In the US, the military defends the Constitution of the United States. The wordings of the current oath of enlistment and oath for commissioned officers are as follows:

“I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.” (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).**“I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God.” (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)

 

[Curt]

I love this post by gilliam. Our rights are derived from God as our founding fathers have written so eloquently. I once took the above oath as an army officer as did my two sons who served in Iraq, one army one marine. Semper Fidelis is the motto of the marine corps, and one that many a marine has died for. Loyalty to one’s country is something that many in America currently don’t understand. This is a serious problem, and one that has been addressed by our “Catechism of the Catholic Church.” Also, I love Bishop Sheen’s many commentaries on patriotism. This is one of the many reasons why being a Catholic is so inspiring.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I love this post by gilliam. Our rights are derived from God as our founding fathers have written so eloquently. I once took the above oath as an army officer as did my two sons who served in Iraq, one army one marine. Semper Fidelis is the motto of the marine corps, and one that many a marine has died for. Loyalty to one’s country is something that many in America currently don’t understand. This is a serious problem, and one that has been addressed by our “Catechism of the Catholic Church.” Also, I love Bishop Sheen’s many commentaries on patriotism. This is one of the many reasons why being a Catholic is so inspiring.

And Catholics have always served this country. And in wartime, usually sustained higher casualties than any other minority group.

 

[abu_kamoon]

“Please give me just ONE example of the main-stream media “demonizing” all Muslims. Just one.”

How many times have you heard our politicians or the media use the term “Islamofascist” or “Islamic Terrorism”. Now how do you think it would go over if they were using terms like “Judeofascism” or “Jewish Terrorism”?

By the way, the terrorist groups are just using religions as the excuse for a power grab. They recruit cannon fodder by appealing to the religious fanatacism of their followers. You don’t see Osama wearing a suicide vest.

Also, the fascism is coming from our own politicians: the Partriot Act, Military Commissions Act, loss of habeas corpus, spying on the American people, the National ID Card & c.

“The dreams of OBL and crew are to establish a world-wide caliphate. I don’t think they can do that by ignoring us. Not to mention the Islamic occupation of Spain, the Islamic invasion of Gaul (France did not yet exist), the Islamic occupation of India, the invasion of Eastern Europe and occupation of the Balkans…all long before we interjected our military into their affairs.”

This is pure propaganda. This is exactly the same argument the terrorists use when they refer to us as “Crusaders”, implying that we are trying to stamp out Islam. The term “crusade” affects Muslims the same way “jihad” affects Christians.

The truth is, there is no world wide Islamic conspiracy to take over the world, just as Christians are not conspiring to impose Christianity on the rest of the world.

“And you can point to companies like Blackwater and Halliburton, but please remember that many of their people are in Iraq, risking their own lives, and not a few of them are employed by the Iraqis themselves.”

Those are exactly what I am referring to. I was in Iraq in 2004-2005. Halliburton employed Indians in our dining facilities. Three private security companies employed Gurkhas (who I understand were earning about a thousand dollars a month). It’s the executives of these corporations who were raking in billions of dollars, and they were back here in the US.

Blackwater, is a good example of how our politicians have made us the most hated nation on the face of the Earth. From my own observation, I think some of these people would have made good Nazis. They seem to enjoy killing people. Check out some of their videos on Youtube. Again, we have our politicians to thank for this.

 

[txsoldier94]

Please show me where anyone in the has used the term “Islamofascist” or Islamic Terrorist to refer to ALL Muslims. Remember, the point was that the press was vilifying ALL Muslims.

This is pure propaganda. This is exactly the same argument the terrorists use when they refer to us as “Crusaders”, implying that we are trying to stamp out Islam. The term “crusade” affects Muslims the same way “jihad” affects Christians.

So, stated goals notwithstanding, OBL does NOT want to establish a caliphate? I agree that he (and others of his ilk) are taking advantage of the beliefs of others to get them to do their dirty work…I never said that there was a “world-wide Islamic conspiracy” to do anything, much less establish a caliphate. Please, if you are going to try to refute what I say, please refute my actual words, not what you think I said, k?

From the American Heritage dictionary:

fas·cism (fāsh’ĭz’əm) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. often Fascism
   1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
   2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

How does this definition relate to the Patriot and FISA acts?

What general suspension of habeas corpus has been issued? Granted, there have been some individuals that were deemed to be enemy combatants that have had their rights suspended; but they have also been tried by federal courts (e.g. Abdullah al-Muhajir aka Jose Padilla).

In what capacity, and under what legislation has the US government spied on its own citizens?

As for the contractors, such as Blackwater and Dyna-Corp…yeah, those guys are making quite a bit of money…but they are also doing an extremely dangerous and demanding job. There is not quite as much profit going into Mr. Price’s pockets as some think.

Most of the Blackwater videos on YouTube seem to be placed there by people seeking to discredit and/or vilify them. Many of them also seem to not be what they claim.

Abu, you responded to several of my statements. How about answering some of the questions I asked?

Mik

 

[RobbyS]

“Please give me just ONE example of the main-stream media “demonizing” all Muslims. Just one.”

How many times have you heard our politicians or the media use the term “Islamofascist” or “Islamic Terrorism”. Now how do you think it would go over if they were using terms like “Judeofascism” or “Jewish Terrorism”?

By the way, the terrorist groups are just using religions as the excuse for a power grab. They recruit cannon fodder by appealing to the religious fanatacism of their followers. You don’t see Osama wearing a suicide vest.

Also, the fascism is coming from our own politicians: the Partriot Act, Military Commissions Act, loss of habeas corpus, spying on the American people, the National ID Card & c.

“The dreams of OBL and crew are to establish a world-wide caliphate. I don’t think they can do that by ignoring us. Not to mention the Islamic occupation of Spain, the Islamic invasion of Gaul (France did not yet exist), the Islamic occupation of India, the invasion of Eastern Europe and occupation of the Balkans…all long before we interjected our military into their affairs.”

This is pure propaganda. This is exactly the same argument the terrorists use when they refer to us as “Crusaders”, implying that we are trying to stamp out Islam. The term “crusade” affects Muslims the same way “jihad” affects Christians.

The truth is, there is no world wide Islamic conspiracy to take over the world, just as Christians are not conspiring to impose Christianity on the rest of the world.

“And you can point to companies like Blackwater and Halliburton, but please remember that many of their people are in Iraq, risking their own lives, and not a few of them are employed by the Iraqis themselves.”

Those are exactly what I am referring to. I was in Iraq in 2004-2005. Halliburton employed Indians in our dining facilities. Three private security companies employed Gurkhas (who I understand were earning about a thousand dollars a month). It’s the executives of these corporations who were raking in billions of dollars, and they were back here in the US.

Blackwater, is a good example of how our politicians have made us the most hated nation on the face of the Earth. From my own observation, I think some of these people would have made good Nazis. They seem to enjoy killing people. Check out some of their videos on Youtube. Again, we have our politicians to thank for this.

We understand that all Muslims are not terrorists, but it is unfortunately the case that the most virulent terrorist actions are being done by Muslims. They are active in Algeria, for instance, where the United States is certainly not involved. Islam in general suffers from the fever of fanaticism just as Christendom did during the religious wars of the 16th and 17th centuries. As for the Crusades, they were particular historical events, with a beginning and an end. Jihad is something different. A significant minority in Islam is attempting to reduce the power of the West, and it has a strong attraction to the children of immigrants, the situation being that the father and grandfathers are less caught up in this universal rage than the sons You all do not condemn even the most barbaric actions by cutthroats but apologize for it while exaggerating the brutality of our actions, assuming that justice is all on your side. In this world, it cannot be the case in any war, not even when one side were Nazi Germany. But in this world the whole race suffers for the sins of any part of it.

 

[SoCalRC]

We understand that all Muslims are not terrorists, but it is unfortunately the case that the most virulent terrorist actions are being done by Muslims.

Actually, that is only marginally true at best. And, it is still misleading. Remember, terrorism is a tactic, not an ideology. So you are going to have “Jewish” terrorist groups (Kahane Chai), “Aum” terrorist gruops (Aum Shinrikyo), and groups that divide on other lines, like ethnicity (Ku Klux Klan) or even anarchy (Black Star).

There are quite a few Islamic and Arab terrorist groups, but it is misleading to lump them all together. Osama Bin Laden belongs to a very specific sect (Qutbism) which has one set of objectives (supposedly to drive foreigners out of Arab lands and establish a caliphate instead of the current kingdoms). But it would be a gross mistake to even generalize Al-Qaeda to other Sunni militant groups or sects. For example, the US is currently providing aid to Sunni militant groups in Iraq who, in turn, are using terrorist tactics to ‘cleanse’ areas of Shia Muslims and Christians. But I doubt you would ever propose that the US and Bin Laden have identical objectives!

A significant minority in Islam is attempting to reduce the power of the West, and it has a strong attraction to the children of immigrants, the situation being that the father and grandfathers are less caught up in this universal rage than the sons

Now you are branching into the blatantly false. Militant extremism is a very tiny percentage of practicing Muslims. This is akin to calling all priests pedophiles. The incidence of such abuse was no higher among priests than any other occupation, but the stereotype entered conventional wisdom nonetheless.

What you are describing is not terribly different from the long standing “troubles” in Ireland. But I’ve never heard anyone refer to, say, the IRA as ‘Catholic terrorism’. However, Irish Catholics, and their descendants in the US, certainly experienced significant discrimination.

You all do not condemn even the most barbaric actions by cutthroats but apologize for it while exaggerating the brutality of our actions…

I don’t see anyone expressly approving of barbaric actions. Your dispute seems to be rather or not these events happen in a vacuum. They do not. Western money flows for oil. That money props up some pretty corrupt regimes. It also makes us a target for hate. Occupying a Muslim country, having secret prisons and an offshore detention camp, suspending rights like habeus corpus, and getting caught using torture all just make the anti-American rhetoric seem true.

This does not equate to approval of suicide bombers, it is just acceptance of the seemingly obvious reality that if you employ violent Pinochet thugs and turn them loose in, say, Iraq, lots of people are going to hate you. Some of them even enough to kill themselves hurting you back.

 

[joe_clark]

Being loyal to one’s country is good, but not to the level with a mind of lint. Challenging our leaders in this exact time is being American. Misquded loyalty is the poison that is killing off Americans and this country.

On Demonizing. It has been going on since time began or as soon as more than two entities wanted the same piece of pie. In my time, watching the old WWII movies, all Japanese soldiers all have big buck teeth and coke bottle lenses. The VC, Viet Chong all squatted and wore the rice patti bamboo pointed hats. In the middle east they all wear turbans and are all terrorist. This is a way to dehumanize the enemy so you can kill them more easily. That is why American soldiers are with their backs to the wall trying to determine who is the enemy and who is a friendly? When put in ridiculous situations, the American soldier is going to spray and pray first, and I don’t blame them. While you are all quoting each other and picking apart sentences, our soldiers have a target pasted on them. As long as we are there in majority, without the assistance of Russia, Germany and France, we are going to be portrayed as vikings with horns coming out of our helmets. G. Bush Junior told the above countries that if they didn’t go into Iraq with us, they wouldn’t share in the OIL!!! They suspected this was all Bull and stood back.

Sounds like the Biden plan…We need to get the three countries on board like the last sucessful coalition, each supplying 15,000 troops. For every couintry that sends troops, that many American troops come home! Under the color of the UN, divide the country into a peace sign, with three separate regions. Locate a capital like the confederate states to send their representatives for grievences ect. In between put the UN troops, bury them with their own oil money supplying font end loaders, backhoes and building materials. Assist them in building schools, churches, mosques, hospitals and schools, so when a terrorist comes looking for a recruit, the response will be "I’d rather build a home for my family.

We need to stabilize this region as soon as possible. Then off to Iran, part of the evil axis in Bush’s head. Tell them, we can’t keep your country living in the stone age. We will assist you in creating nuclear power for your country, but in return you must allow us and or camera’s with 24-7 surveillance so protect your interest. This is the only way this is going to happen.

The only problem with the above is that the warmongers won’t profit $$$$ from this scenerio. And I pray for peace.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The only problem with the above is that the warmongers won’t profit $$$$ from this scenerio. And I pray for peace.

And, oddly enough, you have laid out a program most likely to bring profit to those you purport to dispise, and least likely to bring about peace.

 

[SoCalRC]

And, oddly enough, you have laid out a program most likely to bring profit to those you purport to dispise, and least likely to bring about peace.

It is hard to imagine a higher level of corruption, cronyism, and abuse of funds than we have now. Could you explain your reasoning?

 

[vern_humphrey]

It is hard to imagine a higher level of corruption, cronyism, and abuse of funds than we have now. Could you explain your reasoning?

Ah, you love to sling the accusations around, don’t you?

 

[joe_clark]

The plan that I refer to has an end to it. The current plan we are carrying out, will have us in the middle east for decades to come.

I have sons 18 and 15. They are ripe for:
“The Universal Service Act” aka The DRAFT

(in case you haven’t noticed)
New Rules for: "The Universal Service Act

All requested selections 18 to 24 go with NO exemptions.
They will start with the older group selections.
If you are in College, you finish your semester and report.
If you are not in college, you report.
If you are a female, you report (although women may not see direct combat in all cases)
You cannot go to Canada, they will deport you. (we have an agreement with them signed recently)

I had my draft card for Vietnam, I was scared, but if called I would have went and probably came back in a bodybag. I feel guilty, lucky and Obviously, I do not want this for our children. Nothing like exposure to keep you on your toes. So the next time anyone wants to praise the Lord and pass the ammunition while wave the flag at the same time, remember preserving human life should be paramount.

Negotiationg is not a sign of weakness, it is a sign of peace and power in the Lord!

 

[vern_humphrey]

The plan that I refer to has an end to it. The current plan we are carrying out, will have us in the middle east for decades to come.

And what is that end? And how do you get everyone else on board?

Let me point out that our most successful efforts (WWII and Korea) resulted in an American presence in Europe and the Far East for generations. Our least successful efforts (such as WWI and defeating the Soviet invasion Afghanistan) involved a quick pull out, followed by a disaster a decade or two later.