Modesty

[PaulinVA]

Women are responsible for what they wear. Men are responsible for how they deal with what women wear.

Men read things into what women wear that women do not intend. Women are sometimes clueless that what they wear is provocative.

Some women are very beautiful and simply seeing their face is enough to evoke a response. As long as the response is, “Man, she is beautiful” and not, “Man, she is beautiful and obviously wants me to hit on her”, then you are okay.

 

[Catholic_89]

Treat her with dignity, compliment her when you can do it sincerely, and refrain from criticizing her or offering “constructive criticism”…she’s not your daughter and unless she asks your opinion, it’s just not your place to police her wardrobe.

I agree. I mean husband and wife probably have more right in terms voicing their opinion, but when you are dating, the woman has a right to her own choice just as the man does, and both have to cope with the fact that the other may not agree with them on fashion in this case. When it comes to the guy though, he is allowed to choose his own style, as long as the woman approves

Its true though that many boyfriends and girlfriends can be controlling, which is of course not good and should be avoided.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

OK, I just attended the evening Mass at the campus church. No spaghetti straps and no tank tops, because it’s an almost freezing 58 F (14 C) here in Miami. I lot of girls were very nicely dressed and very feminine in their long sleeved stuff and sweaters. It’s not that I go to church to check out the women, I also cannot resist smiling when I see cute toddlers and little kids.

As I am kneeling during communion time, and people are filing by, I inadvertently notice this girl wearing something that just draws my attention to her breasts, is it a huge cleavage or something? It’s like when the choir is singing, and you don’t pay attention particularly, but then someone just hits a note that’s out of tune or way too harsh, and you can’t avoid noticing it. After the service I saw this girl again, it wasn’t the cleavage, it was the glorified underwear, as Chevalier put it.

Now, if this girl would be a female member of my family or my girlfriend, I know I would be in trouble how to prevent her from wearing that piece again, without hurting her feelings. I have been told countless times not to wear this shirt or that tie, or this pair of blue jeans and it was no big deal because I’m a guy. For example, my mother hated it when I showed up in the church wearing blue jeans and she always insists I put on some nice pants or a suit. But I think, this is different for women and any criticism will touch them very emotionally. It’s like a woman criticizing my driving. I mean, I’m very experienced, I drive at the speed perfectly suited for the road conditions, courteously but not letting aggressive drivers cut in front of me, so what’s your problem with my driving?

Regarding TMI (I googled, I found Texas Military Institute and Too Much Information) at the workplace, there’s one thing that comes to the rescue, at least at my workplace: everybody should wear lab coats, for safety reasons. I mean, do you want to pour the corrosive acid onto your hand, instead of into the reaction vessel, because your attention was distracted? Or accidentally forget to add the ninhydrin to the ninhydrin test, and then just wonder that your reaction is behaving very strangely even though you did it 100 times before and it should have turned blue already a long time ago?

 

[lovemysix]

Well, if my boyfriend had ever suggested to me that something I was wearing was “immodest”, I would have been out of there in a heartbeat. To me, modesty has much more to do with the interior spirit than with the exteriors of clothing, so it would have been a huge insult for him to tell me I was being “immodest”. It would have implied WILL on my part. Now, if he said something like “Um, I can see your bra through that…might want to wear an undershirt” I would have been okay with it because he would simply have been stating a fact, and perhaps it was something I simply hadn’t noticed before I walked out the door. I would have been grateful

To the OP, it’s very hard to get a real reading on somebody just through a post, but I do have to say that something screams “WRONG!” at me when you say your girlfriend isn’t dressing like the Virgin Mary as if somehow that is an indictment of her. Cultures, traditions, and clothing change. I suspect few of us (except perhaps women in burkas—and you can see just how much respect women garnish in those parts of the world) dress very much like the Virgin Mary did. That doesn’t make it immodest.

Lauren

 

[Arclight]

Can anybody give me a basic ‘dress code’ for both Catholic men and women?

In addition, I have a little bit of an issue on my hands. My girlfriend is more or less a modest dresser (for this day and age). Nothing too bad, but nothing that Mary would wear, either. I would love to tell her “wow, you look great today!”, even if she does, but I don’t want to encourage (what might be) an immodest piece of hers. Instead I say something dull like “I love the color of your shirt!” etc.

Am I too strict? I always encourage her to be modest and try to be modest myself. Any help?

As a recent poster said, this feels all wrong.

Dress for the occasion. If at Mass, I expect the woman I’m with will know enough to dress modestly; there’s dress for work and dress for social occasions. It is appropriate for a woman attending a dinner party to want to look stunning, which likely doesn’t involve a nicely colored shirt and which mean something revealing. When you have more experience in life, you’ll learn not to tell a woman what to wear, and not to compliment the color of her shirt when she wants to hear you say, “you look fantastic”.

I have no idea what Mary would have worn. She probably didn’t wear tennis shoes, blue jeans, or anything that you consider modern modest attire.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

When it comes to the guy though, he is allowed to choose his own style, as long as the woman approves

ROFL

Veto power!

 

[GraceDK]

Catholic
I am afraid you are the one who is in error. You are judged by what you wear.

Actually no. Christians dont jugde people. Certainly, you can think a person is a police man if he is dressed like an officer. HOWEVER. You cannot judge a soul on what a person wears. You cant say: That person has black clothes on so inside he is evil. You dont know the intentions/ heart of people. 90 percent of American women wear the fashion because its fashion. They dont even know the judging that is going on among Catholic men.

**You saying that women who wear provocative and revealing clothing are the most innocent things is simply contradictory. To have innocence brings about a certain humility which cannot be found in such dressing. Would a nun wear such clothing? **

I do not find it innapropriate for a nun to be in a swimsuit if she goes to the beach. A nun is a normal woman, okay?
I do not advocate extremes. I dont fancy big cleavages. actually it annoys me.I also think men should stop going shirtless in the city but I would not dream of saying: “That guy looks hot. He is out to get some”, because that says more about my thinking than about his. His mind might be innocent while mine is dirty.
No there is no contradition when I say my friends wear something you in particular would find immodest. I have never found them immodest. Immodesty is an intention. When a child does not wear clothes on the beach is he immodest? No, its ridiculous to say so. You are the one who creates your own reality where you make half the planet suspicious. Clothes is a matter of taste and culture. Here few have the problem that you have with casting judgement on your sisters and its not because we are worse Christians than you guys, but because we dont see the way you do.

I am not saying that men should blame their problems on women. But men and women should try their best to lead others away from sin. To deny this is simply not thinking of others, (…)

Surely we should act according to our conscience. But if you have evil thoughts about peoples hearts based on their attire then you are the one fallen.
What is it that makes you think women dont think of others? But how can we accomodate ourselves to thoughts we dont know exist or even to ones we do not agree with? In many cases following the personal taste of some catholic men would be just that.
Your subjective ideas to what is modest are not objective truths. I hope you are not disapointed at that.

 **Like I said, you are judged by how you dress. If you dress like a gangster, I will find you sketchy.(..) Then what is so different about dressing provocative clothing. This would be extreme (but I have seen women wear it), women wearing clothing that looks like a prostite or something along those lines. What kind of message are you giving about yourself?**

Jesus saw the person. The heart. Yes, we should let holiness guide all our choices. But you advocate the judging of a person based on your own taste and I think thats a far greater sin than a cleavage.

**To you maybe its ‘cute’, but to others its offensive. **

Who others? A bunch of American Catholic men ? Yea and I am offensively dressed in certain parts of Jerusalem if I dont wear extreme covering. But do the oppinion of such people constitute the Truth? No, they represent a taste, a culture, a religious feeling of a certain group at a given time. Nothing more.

When I see girls dressed unappropriately, I am not attracted to them. I am turned away at their lack of modesty; at their lack of self-respect.

And I am turned away by your oppinions and would never be attracted to a guy that had them. But thats off topic. Again the personal taste-issue. I dont want the whole world to embrace my own standards and private taste. I would guess a man who judges women based on their clothes has little self confidence and misguided self-respect that looks more like pride lor fear. But it could also just be that he is ignorant and I should give him a break.

  **It is true that in some societies people are more revealing and it is normal. Well we are  in this society. In some societies women walk topless. Shall we now have women walking topless in our streets? St.Padre Pio would be very upset at women who wore lipstick, becaus that is what prostitutes used to wear in his time. What would he say now! **

You drive home my point. Your own private oppinion is based on your environment. You may go to cultures where all are topless. These people can be more modest in their mind than the catholic western subculture where sins thrive that they havent heard of in the rain forest.
Now this might come as a shock for you: Padre Pio was a man of his time and he was not immaculate. Okay.I hope that does not shake you. I can point you to some anti semitic statements among the early fathers of the church. would you like to embrace these oppinions too?

** If you want to wear provocative clothing, its your choice. But Catholic teaching is Catholic teaching. Immodesty is not the way of God. Concern for others is.(…) **.

I agree. I believe in practicing modesty to the best of ones ability and conscience. But, I will not have some individual make his personal taste the universal dress code.
Do you practice modesty? Modesty is mainly a mindset where you are disciplined in your eyes, dont lust in your heart, dont look at dirty material, and dont judge people.

 

[Serap]

Just lurking…my two cents worth.

When I was around 20, my shyness began to dissipate and I began to enjoy the attention I received from men when I wore something sexy. Even though, I was not involved with a man, I really enjoyed the looks on the street. I liked being desired.

This lasted until I finished school and then it was replaced with wanting to look professional. I showed less cleavage and the skirts became lower.

Now that I’m older, I understand how a woman’s dress affects men, but in my youth, I really didn’t get it. Most young women these days like the attention, but they don’t really understand it either. They enjoy being desired and don’t understand why men can’t handle it. I was one of those women.

I see it all the time downtown…a man commenting on the young sexy woman and the woman getting upset. They don’t get it.

 

[chevalier]

Grace,
I’m aware that men may misinterpret the intentions of women. This may even lead to “she wanted it” kind of excuses in the end.
However, I believe women are too fast in absolving other women of any possibility of a wrong motive in picking their wardrobe and blaming all of it on the man as the beholder.

Putting the blame on the beholder is just the other side of the coin. A lusting man will blame the women who choose to wear provocative clothes. A woman who dresses provocatively will blame the men who look. It’s the same kind of error in both people.

This error relies in trying to escape taking blame for one’s own choices on the basis of other people being free. But the fact that a woman chose to wear provocative clothing doesn’t remove the man’s responsibility for looking. I suppose here we agree. And the man’s freedom to look or not, does not remove the woman’s responsibility for her clothing choices.

It is important not to make women wear burkhas. It is important to make men respect women. It is important to have men educated and trained to contain themselves like good Christians and reasonable people, so that women can be women in the open, without hiding in burkhas. However, all the above doesn’t justify the idea that women should be free to express their sexuality by wearing clothes that give them a sense of influence and control over men.

And here I would add that trying to control a man’s reactions is worse than trying to control a woman’s wardrobe. Wardrobe is external, mental freedom of the man who’s being confronted with a woman who intentiously wears provocative clothes to give him a hard time resisting, is internal.

I insist on this in numerous threads and sometimes the idea stirs bad reactions because it makes some of the ladies think it’s too restrictive of women’s just freedom. However, that freedom doesn’t exist in a vacuum and there’s never been a freedom to tempt others, at least not in a moral sense, although there might be a legal one.

The fact that some men blame it all on women doesn’t justify retribution in the form of leaving women totally free in judgement of what they wear - I mean this morally, not in terms of law or enforcement. The fact that a rapist wrongly blamed a provocative dress of his heinous act doesn’t “redeem” provocative dress.
Further, if we’re talking about sexual coercion, what is it? It’s forcing a sexual activity on an unwilling person. And what else is provocative dress about? It’s about forcing men to have sexual responses which they don’t necessarily desire and it makes them have some form of sexual interaction (she stimulates, he is stimulated, this is interaction) with the woman, while they may very well be married to someone else.

Finally, this is not about trying to understand men. To ask a woman not to try to be provocative doesn’t require asking her to understand men. She already understands men and their reactions if she tries to provoke the wrong ones on purpose.
Asking a woman to try to understand men is when you ask an ignorant woman to curb her provocative behaviour. However, if she subconsciously tries to be seductive, what she needs to understand is not men so much as the nature of being seductive in the light of how human sexuality should be. By seductive, I don’t mean flirtatious or alluring, I mean sexually seductive. Spandex, big cleavage, low riders and thongs, sexualised manner of behaviour.

As for cleavage, it doesn’t serve any other purpose than showing a part of the woman’s breast. If a woman intends to show a part of her breast, she cannot claim she didn’t intend the normal (healthy) reactions of men who looked at her. She cannot claim this excuse even against disordered reactions of men, if they are common, typical and more frequent than not. This is not the same case as even bearing the whole breast in public to feed a child. The purpose of cleavage is solely visual and it is intended to elicit a certain reaction from men and sexualise the interaction at least slightly. Therefore the same excuses do not apply.

Again, the same continence which requires a man not to look lustfully requires the woman not to intend to be lusted for (and, “it’s his choice, I’m only offering the possibility,” is not an excuse) and not to be reckless (“I don’t care, I just want to look hot, it’s his problem if he gets sexual thoughts,” does not work.

Perhaps think of a situation in which the man would be in the position to provoke a woman with his looks or his voice or his touch. I doubt the woman who blames provocative clothes on men would here blame her reactions on herself alone. She would blame the man who provoked her and rightfully so because we bear the blame of lusting and we bear the blame of provoking lust.

One final (in this post) argument I’d like to present for your consideration is that ignorance makes an individual act not culpable but it doesn’t make the act not materially wrong. An individual act of an individually ignorant person doesn’t make the whole genre of such acts good. Your innocent friends who dress very provocatively are simply ignorant - not so much of men’s reaction as of the wrongness of celebrating sexiness. They may also be very young and may know little about human sexuality,

 

[GraceDK]

Just lurking…my two cents worth.

When I was around 20, my shyness began to dissipate and I began to enjoy the attention I received from men when I wore something sexy. Even though, I was not involved with a man, I really enjoyed the looks on the street. I liked being desired.

This lasted until I finished school and then it was replaced with wanting to look professional. I showed less cleavage and the skirts became lower.

Now that I’m older, I understand how a woman’s dress affects men, but in my youth, I really didn’t get it. Most young women these days like the attention, but they don’t really understand it either. They enjoy being desired and don’t understand why men can’t handle it. I was one of those women.

I see it all the time downtown…a man commenting on the young sexy woman and the woman getting upset. They don’t get it.

The ridiculous attention does not end if you cover up to your neck… Thats my experience. I have met so many men who would go up to me in the park or while I was enjoying a sandwich on a bench in the city… they would ask me to come for coffee or tee… tell me I was pretty etc… You know when they want what. I am just telling you… it does not stop because you wear knee long skirts or non-cleavage. Never wore cleavage in my life but I still got the attention.

The primitive kind is the hunking in the horn or some sleesebag passing me by saying something through his teeth.
Again, that is not because I was immodest, but because I am a woman and have a woman figure.

I have the experience when I go to cultures where women cover up to the extreme that these are the societies where women are treated really like half-people and blamed for all bad things… The accusation against women never stops.
The guys there cheat, practice adultery, fornication and watch porn on their cell phones while they tell the women to stay virgins and judge them if they dont wear a scarf.
So dont tell me womens wear have all the effect on mens actions in a given society.

Men are men… they are directed by their lower passions if these are not transformed by Christ in a good upbringing and education where the men learn to really respect themselves and the people around them.
Part of being a Christian is that you take repsonsibility for your own actions.

 

[chevalier]

Treat her with dignity, compliment her when you can do it sincerely, and refrain from criticizing her or offering “constructive criticism”…she’s not your daughter and unless she asks your opinion, it’s just not your place to police her wardrobe.

Sarah, before we attempt to remove the splinter from the neighbour’s eye, we ought to remove the log from ours, but we’re still obliged to admonish people fraternally. If we can’t do it fraternally, it may be better to say nothing but pray and give example. However, constructive criticism may even be required in some situations. We should take it gracefully (even from non-Catholics who may point out how our behaviour falls short of what we preach) and we should sometimes administer it - again, gracefully.

Women are responsible for what they wear. Men are responsible for how they deal with what women wear.

Men read things into what women wear that women do not intend. Women are sometimes clueless that what they wear is provocative.

Some women are very beautiful and simply seeing their face is enough to evoke a response. As long as the response is, “Man, she is beautiful” and not, “Man, she is beautiful and obviously wants me to hit on her”, then you are okay.

Paulin, all of that is true, but also some women defiantly refuse to accept the responsibility for what they wear, seeing the proposition as infringing on their freedom. This is basically the same as a man saying, “it’s not my responsibility because she can choose what she wears.” This is what I always stress: conscious intent to arouse is a plain and simple wrong. Subconscious intent to arouse is a problem that needs correction.

I agree. I mean husband and wife probably have more right in terms voicing their opinion, but when you are dating, the woman has a right to her own choice just as the man does, and both have to cope with the fact that the other may not agree with them on fashion in this case.

I appreciate your humour and I agree in principle, what’s more I might even take it further and say in marriage people too have equal rights against each other, but there’s one thing I would like to stress perhaps a little bit more than you did: it’s not always just fashion. Some choices are just fashion, some, like the opacity of fabric, the clinginess of the cut, the size of the decollete, that is fashion in an intersection with morality and often imbued with moral choices.

Well, if my boyfriend had ever suggested to me that something I was wearing was “immodest”, I would have been out of there in a heartbeat. To me, modesty has much more to do with the interior spirit than with the exteriors of clothing, so it would have been a huge insult for him to tell me I was being “immodest”. It would have implied WILL on my part. Now, if he said something like “Um, I can see your bra through that…might want to wear an undershirt” I would have been okay with it because he would simply have been stating a fact, and perhaps it was something I simply hadn’t noticed before I walked out the door. I would have been grateful

Wouldn’t it be the same if he said perhaps the decollete is too big because it would be awkward to lean on a bar in it, or a lycra top is perhaps a bit too clingy because it underlines the features rather suggestively? I think it would be the same as you describe. For your consideration, however, “something you wear being immodest” is not the same as you dressing immodestly and does not imply will on your part. It’s like Lesson No. 1 on Complimenting Women: don’t tell her, “that dress looks nice,” tell her, “you look nice in that dress.” When I was in highschool, my female classmates actually corrected guys. I had already known my lesson, however, which sort of impressed them.

To the OP, it’s very hard to get a real reading on somebody just through a post, but I do have to say that something screams “WRONG!” at me when you say your girlfriend isn’t dressing like the Virgin Mary as if somehow that is an indictment of her. Cultures, traditions, and clothing change. I suspect few of us (except perhaps women in burkas—and you can see just how much respect women garnish in those parts of the world) dress very much like the Virgin Mary did. That doesn’t make it immodest.

 

[chevalier]

When you have more experience in life, you’ll learn not to tell a woman what to wear, and not to compliment the color of her shirt when she wants to hear you say, “you look fantastic”.

True, but a woman should have enough humility and appreciation for honesty and wit to react with something else than defensiveness, rage or a mental block to an answer like, “You make my blood run faster. Well, perhaps a little bit too fast even.” She should think, “Right. Perhaps I should tone it down a bit,” and there’d be no big deal about it. Women need to understand that the fact that a dress covers a bit too little here or there doesn’t mean that their whole morality and virtue is being judged and cast out the window. On the other hand, the fact that they’re oh so good girls on the inside doesn’t mean that everything goes in terms of external clothing.

I have no idea what Mary would have worn. She probably didn’t wear tennis shoes, blue jeans, or anything that you consider modern modest attire.

Let’s leave Our Blessed Mother alone because she’s not a test subject, and focus on a metaphorical saint.

Part of it is easy if we leave the premise of individual items of clothing or particular fashions and focus on guiding principles. Guiding principles by definition resist precise measuring, but one is sure, no saint would ever (while being a saint) wear anything which were meant to acquire the wrong kind of attention. Saints combat disordered desires, which include lust but also a desire for inappropriate appreciation. This means a saint might well wear something that made her look attractive and womanly and whatnot. But she would never intend to awaken disordered responses and if she knew that kind of response were a given with a certain kind of clothing, she wouldn’t wear that kind of clothing. This means I can very much see a metaphorical female saint wearing a flirtacious dress to a singles event, but I cannot see a metaphorical female saint wearing most of today’s fashions unless by ignorance of which even saints are capable.

 

[Serap]

The ridiculous attention does not end if you cover up to your neck… Thats my experience. I have met so many men who would go up to me in the park or while I was enjoying a sandwich on a bench in the city… they would ask me to come for coffee or tee… tell me I was pretty etc… You know when they want what. I am just telling you… it does not stop because you wear knee long skirts or non-cleavage. Never wore cleavage in my life but I still got the attention.

The primitive kind is the hunking in the horn or some sleesebag passing me by saying something through his teeth.
Again, that is not because I was immodest, but because I am a woman and have a woman figure.

I have the experience when I go to cultures where women cover up to the extreme that these are the societies where women are treated really like half-people and blamed for all bad things… The accusation against women never stops.
The guys there cheat, practice adultery, fornication and watch porn on their cell phones while they tell the women to stay virgins and judge them if they dont wear a scarf.
So dont tell me womens wear have all the effect on mens actions in a given society.

Men are men… they are directed by their lower passions if these are not transformed by Christ in a good upbringing and education where the men learn to really respect themselves and the people around them.
Part of being a Christian is that you take repsonsibility for your own actions.

With all respects, I think you’ve been really hurt by someone important in your life.

Men in EVERY country are good and bad. There are some very kind hearted family men in Arab countries as well.

I am 37 and still get rude comments at times and I am a mom!! I definitely don’t dress showing cleavage or legs anymore I would look silly doing that at my age.

There are good people and not so good people everywhere you go and the numbers don’t change much from country to country.

 

[chevalier]

Grace, I hope you don’t mind me chiming in again. I hope I’m not giving you nightmares with the sheer volume of what I post to you.

Catholic
I am afraid you are the one who is in error. You are judged by what you wear.

Actually no. Christians dont jugde people. Certainly, you can think a person is a police man if he is dressed like an officer. HOWEVER. You cannot judge a soul on what a person wears. You cant say: That person has black clothes on so inside he is evil. You dont know the intentions/ heart of people. 90 percent of American women wear the fashion because its fashion. They dont even know the judging that is going on among Catholic men.

True, except more than 10% simply want to look hot rather than obey fashions. They don’t necessarily take it very far, but more than 10% know that they are crossing certain lines when they show half their breasts or the upper part of their buttocks or wear their underwear in the open, checking in the mirror if their “panty lines” are visible enough.

I don’t judge their moral worth, but I’d be shot behind a barn, which I find a very attractive form of demise, before I dated any one of them and I can’t resist the judgement that they have lots of growing up to do yet.

I do not find it innapropriate for a nun to be in a swimsuit if she goes to the beach.

Neither do I, but it must be stressed that a nun wouldn’t find peace merely following the dominant fashion. She would carefully pick her swimsuit and she would not try to appear attractive to men. In fact, she would try to tone her attractiveness down if she were very pretty, because she simply isn’t free for the taking and she cares for the pour souls of men. The same is true of a well-built priest going on the beach. He would most certainly not occupy the central spot to show off his great chest that he acquired through years of missionary work in the jungle or as a military chaplain or as an amateur sportsman or however else.

A nun is a normal woman, okay?

Yes, but she is also a role model. She generally knows a lot more about morality and theology than we the laity do and all in all, she is or she should be less interested in appealing to men.

I have never found them immodest. Immodesty is an intention.

Grace, I see where you’re coming from, but some things are materially wrong even if the individual is not culpable. There are circumstances when nudity itself is not immodest. But I find it hard to imagine a circumstance in which big cleavages and glorified underwear wouldn’t be objectively immodest. And even a saintly woman acting in ignorance doesn’t sanctify her clothing.

When a child does not wear clothes on the beach is he immodest? No, its ridiculous to say so. You are the one who creates your own reality where you make half the planet suspicious. Clothes is a matter of taste and culture.

I agree. However, certain devices, such as cleavage or clingy dress, serve the purpose of drawing attention. Men in particular cultures might be more or less sensitive to that particular body area, but that doesn’t mean that eliciting a sexual response is purely a matter of fashion or taste.

See, I have no problem with a girl wearing shorts and a somewhat covering swimsuit top in the street on the seaside. At the same time, I have a problem with a top that shows much of the breasts even in a night club where people are culturally expected to try to appear attractive. This is because modesty doesn’t translate to centimetres and %% of coverage. Sometimes something which covers more might be less modest. Human skin is by no means immodest. Our bodies are not dirty. But leaving something uncovered is not the same as specifically uncovering it and devices which invite imagination are a whole different thing altogether.

Many things which I don’t have a problem with and some of the things I enjoy or appreciate, could be found immodest by many people. I’m not quite a prude, I’m not even easily stimulated and my father was an artist who knew tons of stuff about art history as well. I’m less than afraid of the human body. I am prepared to tell the general public to stop bothering me and I’m prepared to tell self-appointed censors to shove off. I do not feel uncomfortable on the beach, sitting next to and talking to women in swimsuits (topless is not a swimsuit) and I will even take a bona fide look because hey, God’s creatures are beautiful. But I feel extremely uncomfortable around women showing half or most of their breasts, their underwear and a belly line. This is not because they pose a challenge to me - although if they were particularly attractive, good old biology might exact its toll on me - but because I don’t like that kind of clothing, it makes me sad, I see it as a perversion of what a woman should look and behave like.

 

[chevalier]

Here few have the problem that you have with casting judgement on your sisters and its not because we are worse Christians than you guys, but because we dont see the way you do.

I don’t judge and I don’t try to reconstruct their intentions, but I remain perfectly aware that it comes down to a couple of possible factors of which prominent is ignorance, a desire to look hot, an inferiority complex that makes them race with others for men’s appreciation, a mistaken view of men as appreciating only the women who dress revealingly, an egotic personality living off praise… as well as a number of circumstantial reasons I can’t possibly guess. One is sure, I don’t like that kind of clothing, I think they need to do some growing up and if they really cross the line, then I am reluctant to even consider dating. The same way, I am reluctant to date sexually active non-Catholics who may well be better Christians or better people than I am and way below mortal culpability. I would give them a fair chance if I knew them well, but they wouldn’t be my primary targets.

Surely we should act according to our conscience. But if you have evil thoughts about peoples hearts based on their attire then you are the one fallen.

If those thoughts are evil, then yes. But if it works like assuming the person in a uniform to be a member of the respective service or a person in fancy clothes to be rich, or a person in ragged clothes to be poor, then a reasonable precaution is not culpable, although we should stay somewhat open and judge people on their merits. I believe I am not being evil when I conclude that a girl from the standard Western culture showing half her breasts or her underwear (intentionally or at least consciously) needs to do a lot of growing up.

What is it that makes you think women dont think of others?

In my case, it is certain pro-freedom bias that I have observed, which shows in saying men should mind their own business and women can wear more or less what they want. I don’t believe in clothes police or enforcement, but I disagree with that. And gender doesn’t matter. Men should pay attention too.

But how can we accomodate ourselves to thoughts we dont know exist or even to ones we do not agree with? In many cases following the personal taste of some catholic men would be just that.

Personal taste of a man is behind the line unless he’s a husband, then it should be an important factor, just as his wife’s tastes should be important to him. I can’t fathom not minding my hypothetical wife’s tastes when choosing my appearance and I would try the same with any person of whose reasonable preferences I were aware. There’s nothing demeaning in not wearing, say, a colour your interlocutor doesn’t like, or basing your choice of formal vs casual clothes on the preferences of that person. This is part of being prepared to answer appropriately to the situation. Part of growing up also entails curbing the need to manifest one’s independence.

 

[chevalier]

Your subjective ideas to what is modest are not objective truths. I hope you are not disapointed at that.

I very much agree with that, but the same is also true for the subjective intentions and imaginations of others. It’s the same between the wearer and the beholder - and I’m intentionally not using gender-specific language.

Jesus saw the person. The heart. Yes, we should let holiness guide all our choices. But you advocate the judging of a person based on your own taste and I think thats a far greater sin than a cleavage.

Yes, but remember we’re discussing fashion here. We aren’t discussing a specific person’s morality. Our Lord would definitely want us not to reject people for their clothes, but at the same time, I don’t think He would like us to affirm that inappropriate clothing is a non-concern or matters little.

Who others? A bunch of American Catholic men ? Yea and I am offensively dressed in certain parts of Jerusalem if I dont wear extreme covering. But do the oppinion of such people constitute the Truth? No, they represent a taste, a culture, a religious feeling of a certain group at a given time. Nothing more.

Again, that is largely true but not fully. I totally agree when it comes to showing or not showing this or that amount of skin. I don’t ever agree, however, on a justification for clothes which were designed with the intent of tempting. The invidual wearing them may be innocent, but the clothes are wrong. This is true for both men and women. As a man, I don’t see it demeaning or enslaving to myself when I mind my buttons. Neither is it demeaning to a woman.

But my point here and in other threads is that women aren’t completely oblivious, ignorant, innocent or whatever we call it, while men poor beggars needed to be shielded from their own sins. An itentious or reckless choice, which is far from uncommon, makes this presumption false.

I would guess a man who judges women based on their clothes has little self confidence and misguided self-respect that looks more like pride lor fear. But it could also just be that he is ignorant and I should give him a break.

Hmm… I don’t judge, I am not ignorant, I fear little, I am prone to pride but I can see it. What’s fundamentally wrong with my opinions then?

You drive home my point. Your own private oppinion is based on your environment. You may go to cultures where all are topless. These people can be more modest in their mind than the catholic western subculture where sins thrive that they havent heard of in the rain forest.

Yes, I always stress that too. But this doesn’t mean we should emulate them. This generally works for any culture and any person that makes a bona fide clothing choice. But bona fides stops where looking hot and being sexy starts.

Now this might come as a shock for you: Padre Pio was a man of his time and he was not immaculate. Okay.I hope that does not shake you. I can point you to some anti semitic statements among the early fathers of the church. would you like to embrace these oppinions too?

I think a possible answer to that is temperance. Temperance in trying to be attractive. Not making it all-important, not focusing on oneself, not ignoring others, not seeing them as tools. There’s no problem looking good for people and there’s no problem looking reasonably good for oneself, but there’s a problem using other people as tools in affirming one’s own sexuality or confirming one’s own attractiveness.

I agree. I believe in practicing modesty to the best of ones ability and conscience. But, I will not have some individual make his personal taste the universal dress code.

Ditto. Grace, but there’s one thing I am relentlessly trying to bring into daylight. When we don’t take away from people, we are not practising courtesy. When we don’t tempt, we are not practicing modesty. Not tempting is a very good start and it is a prerequisite for being modest, but when we ask someone not to tempt others, as in we are asking him not to make a conscious choice to tempt others, we are asking for justice, not for charity. This is justice, not some freebie that men get. When women specifically pick their clothes with temparance and try to make it easier on men, that is mercy. When they abstain from buying clothes that are designed to elicit a strong sexual response, that is justice.

Do you practice modesty? Modesty is mainly a mindset where you are disciplined in your eyes, dont lust in your heart, dont look at dirty material, and dont judge people.

You don’t make yourself the judge of your neighbour, but it doesn’t mean you adopt a non-judgemental mindset of the kind the modern culture promotes. “Judge not lest thou be judged” is not actually, in my view, a complete ban on judgement. It doesn’t mean literally that we should not even hold courts, because we actually should hold courts to promote justice. Nor does this ban taking reasonable precautions and being somewhat judicious (not judgemental) in our expectations.

Thank you very much for this discussion. It’s been very helpful and educative and it has allowed me better to see the other positions and other concerns in this problem, as well as flaws in my own position. I hope I’ve made it somewhat easier for you to see my point, despite the length of my posts. Speaking of flaws, hehe.

 

[purelovemmc]

Man, focus on your own weaknesses and sins. Work on them and you will be too busy to see the weaknesses and sins of others.
Woman, just like the man, listen to your conscience and the Holy Spirit and seek to live a holy life, not occupied with the sins of others, but bettering your self.

Grace

Stick by what you said in the quote above and you will realize how women should be careful of what they wear, in consideration of other people around them. In your other post you said that a person might be innocent in how they wear but the person looking at him or her is thinking dirty then it’s only the latter person’s fault. NO. When I dress inappropriately, for example, and caused someone to lust at me, even if I don’t know the person, I am responsible in leading that person to sin aside from that person sinning as well. That is why there is modesty…and that is expected of everyone, women especially. This is because, men are very visual. They are greatly affected by what they see that is why women should be more careful.

 

[purelovemmc]

**

When I see girls dressed unappropriately, I am not attracted to them. I am turned away at their lack of modesty; at their lack of self-respect.**

And I am turned away by your oppinions and would never be attracted to a guy that had them. But thats off topic. Again the personal taste-issue. I dont want the whole world to embrace my own standards and private taste. I would guess a man who judges women based on their clothes has little self confidence and misguided self-respect that looks more like pride lor fear. But it could also just be that he is ignorant and I should give him a break.

Funny you are turned away by a man who wants nothing but women to give respect to themselves. Shame, it’s hard to find them. Most men will not care. Lucky those who find men like Catholic_89 who follows Church teaching…

Or maybe you are still blinded by effects of immodesty to this world and you, need a break. You are not in a country where people are unaware of the effects of dressing immodestly. Open your eyes and see the place where you live in and see how most people react to immodest clothing. To live in a place scarred by immodesty and still think that people can wear whatever they want is negligence and not following your calling to be disciples of Christ.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

“I can dress like this at 16, and I will be able to do it at 61. I can wear this swimsuit at 18, and I can wear it at 81.”

I just had this idea, it’s provocatively simple. It seems to provide some helpful insights. E.g., do I want to wear a miniskirt at 61? -probably not. So, why do I want to wear it at 16, if not to call attention to my body? On the other hand, there is clearly nothing wrong with wearing a ladies’ tennis outfit at 16 or 61. Or, nothing wrong with a lady, being 81, wearing a swimsuit and going to the beach to enjoy the sun and the sea. Maybe this can help when asking the question: is this particular swimsuit designed to be sexually provocative, or is it simply designed for a practical purpose and suitable to be worn at all ages?

The logic seems to fall apart, though, in that the springtime of age calls for a different style than its summer or the autumn. Maybe some very colorful or goofy styles go very well with teenagers, and there is nothing immodest with them, they rather reflect the youthful state of the soul, in harmony with a youthful state of the body. The same styles later on would scream “immature” or “mid-life crisis”.

I don’t have a very firm opinion on this as a possible principle to help in modest dressing, but it seems as an interesting idea to explore. Any thoughts on this?

 

[chevalier]

“I can dress like this at 16, and I will be able to do it at 61. I can wear this swimsuit at 18, and I can wear it at 81.”

I just had this idea, it’s provocatively simple. It seems to provide some helpful insights. E.g., do I want to wear a miniskirt at 61? -probably not. So, why do I want to wear it at 16, if not to call attention to my body?

That one’s easy. There are some clothes that look good on you when you’re slim but not when you’ve gained some weight. There are clothes that do a great job of masking some overweight but are bad once you’ve become slim again (this is the case with men’s suits that don’t look that great when you need to squeeze the trousers with a belt, while they greatly let you get away with a belly). Similarly, you may find that your skin isn’t as great as it used to be and therefore you don’t feel comfortable showing it. People who are young but overweight have a similar problem with going to the beach. So it’s not all about drawing attention to your body. It may well be about looking good or not so good in given clothes.

On the other hand, there is clearly nothing wrong with wearing a ladies’ tennis outfit at 16 or 61. Or, nothing wrong with a lady, being 81, wearing a swimsuit and going to the beach to enjoy the sun and the sea. Maybe this can help when asking the question: is this particular swimsuit designed to be sexually provocative, or is it simply designed for a practical purpose and suitable to be worn at all ages?

However, I could give you examples of dress that’s fine for young boys and girls but not for figures with more authority.

Maybe some very colorful or goofy styles go very well with teenagers, and there is nothing immodest with them, they rather reflect the youthful state of the soul, in harmony with a youthful state of the body. The same styles later on would scream “immature” or “mid-life crisis”.

Yeah.