Modesty

[Sarabande]

How close are you to this girl? Are you seriously dating each other or just recently dating? When I was dating my husband I never relied on him for his (name removed by moderator)ut on my dress - not that I dressed immodestly. Now that we’re married, I will defer to him sometimes, especially when I’m going to mass or cantoring to make sure that anything I’m wearing won’t inadvertently turn someone on. I trust him and share everything with him, so it’s just second nature to follow his reactions. I’m not someone who is visually stimulated in that way, so I sometimes can’t tell what would turn a guy on. And if he gets all hot and bothered by something I wear, I know that I probably shouldn’t be wearing it in public then.

Basically, if you and your girlfriend have a pretty good sense of what is modest dress, you then have to get a good idea of your body types and see what clothes will still look nice, but provide a modest look. What may look modest on one body, may not look modest on another. In terms of being well-endowed in various places, unfortunately, that is something which can be very hard to achieve. I don’t wear button down blouses, for example, after having a wardrobe misfunction and my button popping open right when I was receiving communion from the priest. EXTREMELY EMBARRASSING!!! It was a very modest blouse - kind of dowdy in fact. So now, I always wear tops that do not button down.

Some things I follow for myself:

• Nothing that looks like it was painted on around the chest and bum area - it can be formfitting, but you don’t want to see the entire outline of the breast or of the behind. It should be breathable.
• Nothing above the knee. I like my skirts right at the knee or lower.
• Nothing that is cut too low.
• No button-down blouses.

Although I have seen some men dress immodestly, I think the majority of fashion for men is pretty modest. I very rarely see men wearing tight clothing. Sometimes at the gym I’ll see these muscle guys wearing clothes to show off their muscles, but that’s a big turn-off for me and see nothing remotely sexy about it.

 

[Litcrit]

Whether you want to been see that way or not is precisely this fine difference. If you don’t want it, you don’t. But someone who wants it can’t claim the same defence, should anything happen. It would be like taunting people and then saying they should be better than calling us names in return.

The same what is with human intentions is also with clothes - some serve the function of making the wearer presentable, beautiful or attractive, and some appeal to the viewer’s sex drive, not his sense of aesthetics or attraction, but just try to make him think about sex. Pretty and trashy are simply not in the same pool, even if both are capable of causing arousal.

Human body is not immodest and neither is nudity per se. What is immodest is our intentions and it’s the intentions, not clothes, strictly speaking, which are immodest. When I say “immodest clothes”, I mean designs which can’t seem to serve any other purpose than provoking sexual arousal. This is not far from the difference between classical or renaissance art and modern magazines for men. You know art from porn, right? Knowing pretty from raunchy is a similar skill. Pretty can complain about being seen as raunchy. Raunchy cannot complain about being seen as raunchy. And raunchy is not a higher degree of pretty, nor is pretty the lower degree of raunchy. They don’t belong on one scale. It’s not fair to lump them together.

Am I any clearer now?

Much clearer, thank you.

I had a feeling all along that I fully agreed with you, but something kept eluding me.

Perhaps because I’m the insane woman who wears a (frumpy, granny-like) two-piece to a beach, but feels it somehow wrong to wear make-up or high heels.

 

[chevalier]

Uff. Good. Seriously, as a lawyer I should be better at getting points across in writing. But I served my punishment writing boring stuff about public procurement for most of today (it’s 9 p.m. here). Glad to see we understand each other. It feels better even than the fact we’re agreeing.

Nothing wrong with heels or make-up by me, by the way, not like I’m trying to convince you or anyone, just to say stuff I’m talking about is far removed from simple make-up or heels. Except some stuff that’s culturally accepted but I logically don’t get it, but that’s a different story.

Sometimes at the gym I’ll see these muscle guys wearing clothes to show off their muscles, but that’s a big turn-off for me and see nothing remotely sexy about it.

Yeah. Same with too much flesh on exposure, or a too aggressive style even if the woman is pretty. Still doesn’t mean you don’t have to guard yourself if you’re a man because images can make you think about sex even if you are put off by what you see. Feels awful and you get to wonder if you crossed the line or not yet, which is completely no fun.

 

[Fidelia]

Someone mentioned make-up and high-heels-- Just my two-cents.
I think that too much of certain types of make-up can defninitely be immodest.
And I think that high-heels are immodest. Their only purpose is to make your legs look sexy. We just said that that shouldn’t be done.

 

[chevalier]

Make-up may be cultural - it differs between localities when it comes to how much and what colours. For example, where I live more is typically worn than farther West in Europe and it’s the traditional way here. You will even find whole blue eyelids. Obviously, in so far as make-up is a message, one ought to send such messages as one really means, as far as one can tell. As for heels, they may well serve merely the purpose of making a woman appear taller - and in consequence, also, more attractive. In fact, that’s the comment my friends make about my height (6’4’’) when they go somewhere with me.

 

[LJN21]

Someone mentioned make-up and high-heels-- Just my two-cents.
I think that too much of certain types of make-up can defninitely be immodest.
And I think that high-heels are immodest. Their only purpose is to make your legs look sexy. We just said that that shouldn’t be done.

Hrm… I wear high heels (boots generally) all the time, with slacks, jeans and my long skirts, … I’m 5’ 6" and my husband is 6’ 3" kinda helps even out the height thing. I really like wearing my knee high, high heeled boots with long skirts, its warm and I don’t have to worry about horrible uncomfortable panty hoes

 

[Serap]

well I guess I’m immodest b/c I wear high heals, button down blouses, tight fitting clothing and make-up.

I have never been told by my conservative husband that I am immodest.

I’m half French Canadian, so my mom always dressed sexy-ish. I honestly think it’s cultural.

I would also wear a nice two piece to a beach without a second thought. AND I’ve had a baby…I don’t see what the big deal is honestly. I am chaste and act very modest. Men treat me with respect and I feel comfortable with how I dress.

 

[Sarabande]

well I guess I’m immodest b/c I wear high heals, button down blouses, tight fitting clothing and make-up.

Please don’t misunderstand my ideas with button down blouses. I can’t wear them because my chest pops out of them and people can see my bra, thus making it immodest for me. (Note my wardrobe malfunction in front of the priest with my dowdy blouse. Accidentily bearing my chest to a man and especially to a priest is not something I want to do again). I believe it all depends on body type, and people should just have a good and honest idea of what their bodies look best in without wearing them with the intention to incite lust.

I wear make-up, form-fitting clothes and high heels as well, and don’t think that’s immodest. I would say that I can be rather classy and fashionable. (I have a thing for Hermes scarves and French designers, for instance - if only I could afford it!!! although I’m fortunate to own a few Hermes scarves given to me as gifts.) But tight clothes that make me look like a hootchie-momma is not a look I’d like to go for. And besides, a woman can be extremely attractive, and even sexy dare I say, without looking like a hootchie-momma. It’s not just the clothing, it’s the attitude on the inside - such as intelligence, goodness, self-confidence, inner-beauty etc. - even a person’s spirituality. That adds to a person’s physical attributes and I don’t believe in ever hiding those even if some people might get turned on by that.

In all honesty, I know that many men and some women are just naturally visual people, so sometimes no matter what one wears, it will be a turn on too. But for me, as a matter of self-respect, I try not to wear things that will most-likely objectify me. And I think many adults will have an innate idea of what is considered an outfit to outright incite lust and what is not.

 

[Litcrit]

Nothing wrong with heels or make-up by me, by the way, not like I’m trying to convince you or anyone, just to say stuff I’m talking about is far removed from simple make-up or heels. Except some stuff that’s culturally accepted but I logically don’t get it, but that’s a different story.
.

Someone mentioned make-up and high-heels-- Just my two-cents.
I think that too much of certain types of make-up can defninitely be immodest.
And I think that high-heels are immodest. Their only purpose is to make your legs look sexy. We just said that that shouldn’t be done.

I mentioned personally feeling uncomfortable with make-up and high heels, but didn’t want to imply I considered them immodest or sinful or anything. It’s a personal psychological problem of mine - I don’t like being really feminine or ‘sexy-ish’ because it’s really important for me to be primarily seen by the men I talk to as a person with thoughts, ideas and opinions, not a potential mate etc. I know we’re not supposed to be genderless or androgynous, and I also know putting emphasis on one’s intellect is just a different form of vanity, so no one needs to tell me that. . We all have our trials.

 

[chevalier]

Well, at least one meaning of modesty is the opposite of vanity. Now if we were to concentrate on that one, quite a lot of us would have quite a lot to do.

 

[Serap]

Please don’t misunderstand my ideas with button down blouses. I can’t wear them because my chest pops out of them and people can see my bra, thus making it immodest for me. (Note my wardrobe malfunction in front of the priest with my dowdy blouse. Accidentily bearing my chest to a man and especially to a priest is not something I want to do again). I believe it all depends on body type, and people should just have a good and honest idea of what their bodies look best in without wearing them with the intention to incite lust.

I wear make-up, form-fitting clothes and high heels as well, and don’t think that’s immodest. I would say that I can be rather classy and fashionable. (I have a thing for Hermes scarves and French designers, for instance - if only I could afford it!!! although I’m fortunate to own a few Hermes scarves given to me as gifts.) But tight clothes that make me look like a hootchie-momma is not a look I’d like to go for. And besides, a woman can be extremely attractive, and even sexy dare I say, without looking like a hootchie-momma. It’s not just the clothing, it’s the attitude on the inside - such as intelligence, goodness, self-confidence, inner-beauty etc. - even a person’s spirituality. That adds to a person’s physical attributes and I don’t believe in ever hiding those even if some people might get turned on by that.

In all honesty, I know that many men and some women are just naturally visual people, so sometimes no matter what one wears, it will be a turn on too. But for me, as a matter of self-respect, I try not to wear things that will most-likely objectify me. And I think many adults will have an innate idea of what is considered an outfit to outright incite lust and what is not.

well said! amen to that

as for your blouse…that wouldn’t be a problem for me as I acquired the petite chest size from the French side

I love being feminine and done up. I always wear very feminine clothing and instead of showing cleavage, I will wear a lace top underneath my shirt. It still looks sexy, but sans cleavage

I agree with you that inner beauty and modesty really comes out and can make all the difference on how men will perceive a woman.

When I was single, I had men chasing after me, but now that I’m married with a baby, they leave me alone I’m off limits

I know I’m a pretty girl and that has gone against me in many ways, but I just love feeling really feminine and now that I’m 37, I don’t find that ment treat me like an object anymore b/c the men I associate with are my age and are in a different stage in their lives. I’m also not a flirt, but my friendly nature has gotten me into some misunderstandings in the past.

I agree…it’s the whole package that determines whether a woman is modest or a “hoochie mama”

 

[Serap]

Well, at least one meaning of modesty is the opposite of vanity. Now if we were to concentrate on that one, quite a lot of us would have quite a lot to do.

I’m sure as a lawyer, you sometimes suffer from a different kind of vanity. Vanity is still vanity, but I tend to agree with a lot of what you’ve said.

 

[Serap]

I mentioned personally feeling uncomfortable with make-up and high heels, but didn’t want to imply I considered them immodest or sinful or anything. It’s a personal psychological problem of mine - I don’t like being really feminine or ‘sexy-ish’ because it’s really important for me to be primarily seen by the men I talk to as a person with thoughts, ideas and opinions, not a potential mate etc. I know we’re not supposed to be genderless or androgynous, and I also know putting emphasis on one’s intellect is just a different form of vanity, so no one needs to tell me that. . We all have our trials.

You go girl!!! Show them your inner beauty!!!

I completely understand what you’re saying about men seeing you for who you are, not just as a potential mate, etc.

 

[Lifeisamazing]

Sometimes you have to, but most of the time you can avoid it. It’s probably the same if one woman asks another and they aren’t close enough friends to warrant direct answers.
**Well, if the OP’s girlfriend asks for his opinion then that is different then if he just forces his opinions on her. Like I said, I highly doubt her mode of dress dramatically changed the moment they became exclusive, so he chose a girl that sometimes dresses a little less modest than he now says he likes. Hmmm, why could that be? Let’s have some self responsibility here, guys…

And, hey, if someone asks me a question- I tell them like it is. I tend to be more diplomatic then most, but when asked you shall receive. If you don’t ask, and we are close and I see self destructive behavior, then I may contemplate starting the conversation. In this context, let’s say a friend is complaining about the types of guys she is attracting. I might say, “You are a beautiful & smart girl. Let’s get real here—You dress like a playboy bunny and go out to bars. What exactly do you think you will attract? Your bait does not match with what you are hoping to snag.” Happens all the time. I have some above average looking girlfriends, and they get what they ask for in the men department b/c they set their “bait” and the sharks smell blood and circle.That is where a young woman’s self responsibility comes into play.**

Aball, are you even still there or have we chased you off?

I think maybe he has abandoned post! I kinda chuckle a bit when these posts hit and then are ababndoned by the OP b/c I have to wonder if the subject of the question found out about the thread. If so, hopefully good dialogue resulted.

 

[chevalier]

I’m sure as a lawyer, you sometimes suffer from a different kind of vanity. Vanity is still vanity, but I tend to agree with a lot of what you’ve said.

I would hope not, but lawyers are habitually overconfident (mostly a pose), often demanding (because their job is to justify claims and make them look solid) and they think they can move the mountains. Also, talking like a 19th century philosophy teacher is part of the job, which takes it toll. We also often talk about stuff we don’t know much about because few cases are strictly about law, they’re mostly about something someone did to someone else.

 

[Serap]

I would hope not, but lawyers are habitually overconfident (mostly a pose), often demanding (because their job is to justify claims and make them look solid) and they think they can move the mountains. Also, talking like a 19th century philosophy teacher is part of the job, which takes it toll. We also often talk about stuff we don’t know much about because few cases are strictly about law, they’re mostly about something someone did to someone else.

You seem like a very down to earth lawyer to me. Vanity is just a part of human nature. We’re all fighting it on some level.

I have a lawyer joke, which I’m sure you’ve heard…

What do you call 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?

A good start…

 

[Galnextdoor]

The OP probably feels like his thread was high-jacked. I have found this thread interesting. I have a 17 year old daughter who has
a well-developed figure. I’ve tried to talk to her about modesty, but she just doesn’t get it. (It doesn’t help that my ex-husband has called me a prude.) Almost every top she wears is skin tight or low cut. I’m thinking about making her read this thread. In the past when I have tried to talk to her about her shirts, she has told me I have a dirty mind. I just don’t know how to make her understand.

 

[chevalier]

The way I heard it, it was 1000 lawyers chained to the bottom of the ocean.

Now you know what happened an hour ago? I underrupted editing the last post and went to church. After a while, mass started and the priest said, “Obeying God’s law can nothing in common with the love of God.” I was like err… Then he continued that if we obey the letter but forget about the most important commandment of love of God and our neighbour, then that happens.

So I suppose I really shouldn’t go on dissecting people’s wardrobes after all. I have more important sins of my own to deal with. Still, I can’t in good conscience say that everything goes as long as it doesn’t feel bad or we don’t feel bad for doing it. However, God certainly didn’t make us so that we’d all be amateur moral theologians and 160 IQ and a Ph.D. has never been a requirement for being a good Christian. We can say that the more we deal with inches, the more we lose the bigger picture and forget about God and neighbour and remember only those inches that we have right in front of us. I don’t know how to reconstruct a rule here, but I know that generally people know if something they’re wearing is good or bad and if they genuinely care for others, which means they don’t tempt and are not indifferent about endangering others with temptations, either, then they rarely cross the lines and even if we have something bad to say about their clothes, they don’t pose much danger themselves anyway because they behave modestly.

There is an underlying moral-theological problem here - and it gets messy. I could describe it in more detail and I could also contain it in a sentence or two, after all the discussion we’ve recently done, but I’m beginning to doubt if there is a point. I suppose the bottom line will still be that it’s not fine to tempt and that it’s not fine to take sexual satisfaction in looking at someone who isn’t our spouse.

 

[Serap]

The way I heard it, it was 1000 lawyers chained to the bottom of the ocean.

Well a 1,000 lawyers would be a definite good start

Now you know what happened an hour ago? I underrupted editing the last post and went to church. After a while, mass started and the priest said, “Obeying God’s law can nothing in common with the love of God.” I was like err… Then he continued that if we obey the letter but forget about the most important commandment of love of God and our neighbour, then that happens.

So I suppose I really shouldn’t go on dissecting people’s wardrobes after all. I have more important sins of my own to deal with.

It’s so easy to judge others b/c it makes us feel good. God’s not in that equation though and that’s a lack of humility in us all. I’m sure there are people in church that see me dressed in a tight fitting outfit with my make-up and think, “that big hussy” and then they go home and beat their dog.

Humility means that we all need to realize that our strengths are also our weakness and our weaknesses are also another person’s strengths.

 

[theistgal]

You know, I just don’t think there can be enough of these threads about modesty.