Molinism, Predestination, Free Will, Grace?!

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thinkandmull said:
This conversation has become mindless. God MUST create only an eternal universe? Gosh, open your imagination. God is responsible for what you do because He sees it in eternity? He chooses to create and THEN you choose. That is the order of cause to effect. He sees the effect, yes, but at that point it is in YOUR hands. There is no way to refute Deism or prove Catholicism, but at least try to see how our position is not irrational.
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Deism is inferior to Christianity in at least one respect: it implies God is incapable of love. 🙂
 
AyJSimon said:
Except the author both knows the outcome, and creates the reader. He doesn’t need to intervene in your choices because he’s already set you on the course to make them.
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So too does the author of a “choose your own adventure” book creates his reader. If a reader reads one of those books the author has created the reader, because the reader enjoys reading his types of book. Otherwise there wouldn’t be that kind of book to read if no one liked it.

You have a choice to either accept God or not too. No one forces you to pray, go to church, abide by the laws God has set forth. Though shall not kill is a law God gave that is also punishable by man with imprisonment, so you won’t kill. But will you not kill because of your man-made punishment for such crime or the punishment by God, or both? It’s all your choice.

I understand your argument when you say ultimately we don’t choose because by the foreknowledge of God HE has chosen for us, and in return free will is not really free. So let me ask you this, what stops you from leaving your house in the nude everyday? Because that is an option although it is against man-made law to expose oneself in public like that. But you have the choice. You’re putting this on a level of man and not God. God has a reason for everything that HE has not disclosed to man therefore we can not understand.

-THAT WITH WHICH WE ARE AFRAID OF EXCITES US THE MOST; OPEN YOUR MINDS
 
mamlukman said:
I like the choose your adventure analogy. But I would disagree that the author has “set you on the course” to make choices. Let’s say your 3 year old is reading one of those books. You know your kid loves kittens. One of the choices in the book is between a kitten and a dog. You know your kid will choose the kitten because you know what they like. You are not “setting the course” --you simply know them well enough to know what they will choose. It’s up to them to choose; you simply know what their choice will be.

If you push that back a level–in other words, why would the kid like kittens and not dogs–you’re simply begging the question and going back a step. There is a reason.
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If God created everything and has perfect foreknowledge of everything that will be, you have no room to claim you have free will. It defies logic.

God is the author. He created the reader, he created the book, and he knows which adventure the reader will choose. The number of possible tracks the story can take simply feeds the illusion that the reader “chose his own adventure.” He didn’t choose anything - God chose it for him.
 
How can you say we don’t have a free will when we can will evil and God can’t?

The entire reason our will is free has less to do with the power of choice and more to do with intent. We can freely intend, therefore we can freely determine.

God’s intent is distinct from our own. God only intends our salvation. God only determines our existence. We determine our intent. So either we can coorperate with God’s good intentions or determine our own – that’s where our freedom lies.
 
pambarnes1516 said:
How can you say we don’t have a free will when we can will evil and God can’t?

The entire reason our will is free has less to do with the power of choice and more to do with intent. We can freely intend, therefore we can freely determine.

God’s intent is distinct from our own. God only intends our salvation. God only determines our existence. We determine our intent. So either we can coorperate with God’s good intentions or determine our own – that’s where our freedom lies.
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God created everything and has perfect foreknowledge. If you want to have free will, you have to give up one or the other.
 
No perfect foreknowledge has to do with determination, not intent.

Christ knew perfectly well what would happen to Him if He stuck around the garden. He intended on not suffering, therefore He prayed not to. But He felt the Father wanted Him to suffer, so He determined to change His intent by the exercise of His free will. Christ determined His own intent. The Father did not determine Christ’s intent for Him.

God’s foreknowledge only effects how God creates, not why God creates – what He determines to do, not what His intentions are. God determines our existence, and He intends on our salvation. But God does not determine our salvation. We do.

God intends on universal salvation. He knows it won’t happen, however God determines everyone to exist not according to what He foreknows but according to His good intentions.

You are implying God’s intentions are evil because God has foreknowledge. God’s intentions are good despite God’s foreknowledge. God can neither determine evil not intend it. Only we can intend evil.
 
pambarnes1516 said:
No perfect foreknowledge has to do with determination, not intent.

Christ knew perfectly well what would happen to Him if He stuck around the garden. He intended on not suffering, therefore He prayed not to. But He felt the Father wanted Him to suffer, so He determined to change His intent by the exercise of His free will. Christ determined His own intent. The Father did not determine Christ’s intent for Him.

God’s foreknowledge only effects how God creates, not why God creates – what He determines to do, not what His intentions are. God determines our existence, and He intends on our salvation. But God does not determine our salvation. We do.

God intends on universal salvation. He knows it won’t happen, however God determines everyone to exist not according to what He foreknows but according to His good intentions.

You are implying God’s intentions are evil because God has foreknowledge. God’s intentions are good despite God’s foreknowledge. God can neither determine evil not intend it. Only we can intend evil.
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The distinction you’re trying to draw between intent and determination is illusory. God cannot create us with perfect foreknowledge of what we will do, while intending us to do anything otherwise.
 
AyJSimon said:
If God created everything and has perfect foreknowledge of everything that will be, you have no room to claim you have free will. It defies logic.

God is the author. He created the reader, he created the book, and he knows which adventure the reader will choose. The number of possible tracks the story can take simply feeds the illusion that the reader “chose his own adventure.” He didn’t choose anything - God chose it for him.
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I’m not saying I’m right, but I don’t see why my position defies logic. Maybe. But you need to convince me.

It depends on what you mean. It seems to me that your choices are constrained by 1) your own genes and mind and 2) your own environment. So to that extent, your possibilities (and choices) are limited.
Genes: I will never run a 5 minute mile, no matter how much I train.
Mind: I would find it hard to learn Chinese.
Environment: If I am born to a peasant family in Bangladesh, I’m probably not going to go to Harvard.

So at any given moment, you have a limited number of options. But you always have options. And in terms of your state of mind or your reaction to events (Victor Frankl) there are even more options–even in a concentration camp where your options are limited indeed. And in terms of moral options–do I do the right thing or the wrong thing–it seems to me that I always have a choice. Maybe I have a tendency or inclination to do this rather than that, but it seems to me there is always a moment of choice. I don’t see how God’s knowledge of your choice matters. If God created only beings who made the “right” choices because he looked into the future and decided not to create beings who made the “wrong” choices, I still don’t think that would destroy free will.

Could God have created you with a different set of options? Sure. That’s why in another thread I keep taking the position that God is going to judge you at the end not just in black and white terms (You did A and not B) but by the various constraints you are under. Maybe if you are attracted by alcohol and I’m not, you’re less guilty than I am if you get drunk. But we both still have the ability to choose–I just find it easier to choose not to get drunk.
 
Yes He can. I’ll give you an analogy.

I know the mail man comes everyday to deliver my mail. I determine to build a mail box to recieve the mail. I intend on having my mail put into the box.

Now lets say my mail box has a free will: the freedom to determine its own intent. And lets say I have foreknowledge and know that my mail box will choose to not open when the mail man arrives. So I determine, then, to build another bigger mail box right next to it with the same exact intention for that one. I still intend on my first little mail box to open, so my intentions have never changed due to my perfect foreknowledge, but knowing it won’t, I know the other bigger one will do what I want, not what it wants. So I get my mail either way.

One mail box will do what I want, which is what I created it for, and the other will not do what I want. The other will do what it wants, despite my good intentions for it. I determined both and intended on both of them to do what is good according to what they were designed for. But I gave them the power to determine their own intents. With thier own powers they both determined freely.

So it is with us. God’s foreknowledge does not effect His good intentions. God’s foreknowledge only effects how God creates (i.e. two mailboxes instead of one), not why God creates (i.e. to receive mail).

The mail boxes are us. The mail is saving grace through the coorperation with God’s intent (God’s will).
 
mamlukman said:
I’m not saying I’m right, but I don’t see why my position defies logic. Maybe. But you need to convince me.

It depends on what you mean. It seems to me that your choices are constrained by 1) your own genes and mind and 2) your own environment. So to that extent, your possibilities (and choices) are limited.
Genes: I will never run a 5 minute mile, no matter how much I train.
Mind: I would find it hard to learn Chinese.
Environment: If I am born to a peasant family in Bangladesh, I’m probably not going to go to Harvard.

So at any given moment, you have a limited number of options. But you always have options. And in terms of your state of mind or your reaction to events (Victor Frankl) there are even more options–even in a concentration camp where your options are limited indeed. And in terms of moral options–do I do the right thing or the wrong thing–it seems to me that I always have a choice. Maybe I have a tendency or inclination to do this rather than that, but it seems to me there is always a moment of choice. I don’t see how God’s knowledge of your choice matters. If God created only beings who made the “right” choices because he looked into the future and decided not to create beings who made the “wrong” choices, I still don’t think that would destroy free will.

Could God have created you with a different set of options? Sure. That’s why in another thread I keep taking the position that God is going to judge you at the end not just in black and white terms (You did A and not B) but by the various constraints you are under. Maybe if you are attracted by alcohol and I’m not, you’re less guilty than I am if you get drunk. But we both still have the ability to choose–I just find it easier to choose not to get drunk.
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The number of options you appear to have in a given moment isn’t really relevant. The only thing that’s relevant is the logical reality of what Christians claim about God. They insist, first, that God created literally EVERYTHING in the universe, and second, that God has perfect foreknowledge of everything that will happen (including the actions of his creations).

Let’s imagine that the Universe is completely comprised of the room you’re in right now. Let’s further imagine that I created everything in that room, including you. And finally, let’s imagine that I know exactly what you will think and do, as long as you’re there to think and do anything.

Now, it doesn’t matter what’s in that room. There could be toys, computer games, puzzles, a bowling alley, a wet bar, a tomato garden, an ant farm - any number of things that give you the appearance of having options for how you can behave. I can grant all of it, and it still comes back to the same question - if I created you and everything else, and I know, in advance, everything you’ll ever think and do, where is your free will?
 
tonyrey said:
The fallacy in your argument is the false assumption that the** result** of God’s eternal creative act is** identical** with the act itself. Divine activity transcends time and space whereas the universe exists in time and space. Of that there is no doubt whatsoever - unless one has an idiosyncratic concept of the Creator. It doesn’t follow from the fact that Creation is eternal that any of the consequences must also be eternal. Such a presupposition implies insight into the nature of God no created being can possibly possess. Human logic is an inadequate guide to ultimate reality because it is confined to human experience and amounts to thinking inside a homemade box! The Catholic doctrine of infallibility is at least confined to faith and morals whereas the hypothesis that **everything **created by God must be eternal is claimed to be absolute, universal and true beyond all possible doubt!
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As I said, tghis is addressed in the argument. It is clear that you don’t understand it, but that’s no reason to call it a fallacy.
Anyway, I am done with this discussion.
 
AyJSimon said:
God created everything and has perfect foreknowledge. If you want to have free will, you have to give up one or the other.
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A false dilemma - unless you can explain precisely how knowledge of our choices deprives us of free will. We can often predict what others are going to do but it doesn’t mean we influence their behaviour.
 
tonyrey said:
A false dilemma - unless you can explain precisely how knowledge of our choices deprives us of free will. We can often predict what others are going to do but it doesn’t mean we influence their behaviour.
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Answered this point multiple times.
 
belorg said:
An eternal creative act does entail an eternal result, though.
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An eternal act which gives us free will entails the eternal existence of free will! And to deny the existence of free will is self-contradictory because without free will we are biological machines incapable of thinking for ourselves.
 
tonyrey said:
Deism is inferior to Christianity in at least one respect: it implies God is incapable of love. 🙂
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I had a thread on this recently. Aquinas didn’t believe that Trinity could be proved and believed that creation was not necessary, so he did not believe that God of necessity had to have someone to love in order to be all-Good. He may be wrong on this point
 
You guys don’t seem to understand that we have an elegant system that is consistent with logic. It is like this: if you tried to explain calculus to someone who has only known basic arithmetic, he could easily assert that using infinities in calculus makes no sense. He just hasn’t gone to the part of his mind where he can see where it makes sense.

Us in creation come between God willing to create and His foreknowledge. Instead of trying not to understand it, why not try to see it at least a little. We are talking about something so far above us, how can you be so sure you have found a contradiction?
 
AyJSimon said:
How about 18?

3, 39, 45, 51, 53, 61, 67, 69, 71, 77, 100, 116, 119, 131, 273, 283, 285, and 290.
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OK, I actually went back and read all your posts. I can see why you’re getting frustrated, because you’re saying the same thing over and over. But I hope you can see why we lesser mortals are also getting frustrated: to us you are saying, “Look at the grass! Isn’t it a nice shade of red!” and we say, “Huh???”

I think your argument is fairly simple: God created everything; God has foreknowledge of the future; therefore there is no free will.

But try as I might, I don’t see the logic in your conclusion. I read your analogy about the room several times, but I still don’t get it. Yes, I’m created with certain tendencies (my own post above) and certain limitations, but no matter how limited they are, I still have the ability to make choices. And of course most choices aren’t moral choices.

I might suggest that what you are overlooking is that God created men (and animals) with free will. If I create a dog with certain abilities and tendencies, and if I have foreknowledge that if I throw a ball the dog will try to catch it, I am not determining the dog’s actions–the dog can decide not to catch it if he wants to.

The closest I can come (although you probably don’t like this example) is another analogy: I create a model airplane; it will respond to the controls. If I push the button to make it go left, it goes left, etc. It seems to me you are comparing people to the airplane–we’re simply programed to do certain things. I can’t see that. It’s sort of like BF Skinner’s psychology: your mind is programmed. I completely agree, as I’ve said several times, that options are limited by several factors, including reality. But there are always options. We’re not programmed or controlled.

To me, God creates everything–including built-in free will; he has foreknowledge of the future because God’s outside of time–everything is laid out simultaneously. But knowing something is going to happen isn’t the same as causing it to happen–although you could argue that God could simply decide not to create people that opened door A instead of door B. But that still doesn’t restrict the free will of the people God created who open door B–they could have opened A, but decided not to. If you can bridge the gap here without simply repeating what you’ve said once more, great. Otherwise, you’re just telling me that the grass is red, and I don’t get that.
 
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