Moral Dilemma re. a wedding

[mommamia]

Please do not withdraw.
Christ came for sinners, not for the righteous.
Actually if the sinners leave there are no one left…
And like you I wouldn’t want the OP to be at my wedding.

Its the loving a kind folk like you, that keep me in this Church.

And Sancta…good post. Lets not judge this girl, lets just love her as Jesus would.

To the OP I ask…What do you think Jesus would do in your situation?? He who sat with tax collectors and prostitutes? He never decided they were not worthy of all the goodness the Church has to offer, why should we.

 

[aicirt]

The sin was already committed. After that, who cares if the baby is born in wedlock when many priests advise to wait afterward?

No child is legitimate or illegitimate. As for the wedding, it’s already planned. As for the sin, it’s probably already confessed.

Geez, we all commit sin…I think we’re too hard on this young lady. Let her have her day and celebrate with her husband and child.

I’m not denying her the day. I’ve said, in other posts, I and my family would go to the wedding and she’d still be the sponsor or godmother to my child. But that doesn’t mean I agree with the day being a big do.

As far as the priests, the one involved in this marriage wanted them to move up the date . Appaently, he would make the time to marry them. And another poster said her priest would only marry couples, who had lived together, in a side chapel. One can only surmise what kind of wedding he’d officiate at when the couple is pregnant or with a baby.

Maybe babies being born in wedlock is more of a cultural or family thing than a religious objection.

Wearing white and a veil has traditionally indicated virginity. Yes, we all suspect many weren’t virgins. But a woman who’s given birth, is a mother. Sure she should have a wedding because hopefully it will be her only one. But an ecru gown and a garland of flowers would be more appropriate. IMO

 

[Norseman82]

The attitude that the jbettin posted about what the bride basically told her:

“I want what I want and I’m gonna have what I want”.

sounds like the modern phenomenon known as a “bridezilla”. Would you enjoy being at a weding with a “bridezilla”? Some people may be entertained by such behavior, some may be able to “suck it up”, but maybe jbettin is one of those people who cannot deal with “bridezilla” weddings. Maybe she suspects that the bride is counting on expensive gifts from the attendees as a means for paying for the wedding. I don’t know. Maybe she just hasn’t found the right way of attending the wedding yet still trying to commmunicate to her other children that their situation is messed up and that they should avoid such situations in their own future.

 

[GraceDK]

The attitude that the jbettin posted about what the bride basically told her:

sounds like the modern phenomenon known as a “bridezilla”. Would you enjoy being at a weding with a “bridezilla”? Some people may be entertained by such behavior, some may be able to “suck it up”, but maybe jbettin is one of those people who cannot deal with “bridezilla” weddings…

You are right… she should not have said to the OP: “I want what I want…” She should have said: its none of your business. Coz it isn’t, and thats a fact.

 

[LittleMother]

They sinned. The charitable thing to do is to assume they confess the sin and God forgave them.

Sad thing is, every one gets to know about their sin, while the rest of us get to keep our sins hush hush.

Go to the wedding and forgive this young couple. Let your daughter see you do not cast people out of your life for sinning.

I agree, but I would say #2 if any of your other children would be scandalized by the situation.

 

[Norseman82]

You are right… she should not have said to the OP: “I want what I want…” She should have said: its none of your business. Coz it isn’t, and thats a fact.

You’re right, the OP should go back in time (even though it is a violation of the Cathechism) and not say anything in the first place. Then we will fast forward five years and the couple will be posting here that they are using NFP because they are still paying off the wedding, and the NFP police will be jumping all over them for not forseeing the consequences, and then the question will be asked why nobody tried to warn them…

 

[Liberanosamalo]

You know, we’re supposed to be pro-Life. This discussion does lead one to wonder if such condemnation or sentencing a woman to never having a nice wedding because she had a baby in the wrong order doesn’t lead some young women to abort their babies quietly and in a hidden fashion.

How many women have walked down the aisle with that secret guilt and no one in the congregation was tsking at them for their public scandal.

No one condemns them for irresponsible weddings when they have a baby to feed.

It’s a teachable moment for children about what they want their weddings to be like someday and maybe they can learn from someone else’s mistake. I am sure the OP wouldn’t want the unintended consequence of condemnation to be that someday a grandchild would be aborted because their child sinned and decided to cover it up so that they wouldn’t face the same condemnation and no wedding ceremony. Lessons like that linger in a child’s head for years.

In this day and age the people who should feel the real shame aren’t held up for public condemnation or scorn because they take care of it very quietly.

 

[dixieagle]

They sinned. The charitable thing to do is to assume they confess the sin and God forgave them.

Sad thing is, every one gets to know about their sin, while the rest of us get to keep our sins hush hush.

Go to the wedding and forgive this young couple. Let your daughter see you do not cast people out of your life for sinning.

This is, indeed, the noble, Christian thing to do.

However, I am completely on board with the idea that the wedding should be simple, and the money saved for the inevitable child-related expenses. Unfortunately, the “I want what I want” mindset is all too common, and elaborate “white” weddings seen as an entitlement, no matter the circumstances.

 

[aicirt]

You know, we’re supposed to be pro-Life. This discussion does lead one to wonder if such condemnation or sentencing a woman to never having a nice wedding because she had a baby in the wrong order doesn’t lead some young women to abort their babies quietly and in a hidden fashion.

How many women have walked down the aisle with that secret guilt and no one in the congregation was tsking at them for their public scandal.

No one condemns them for irresponsible weddings when they have a baby to feed.

It’s a teachable moment for children about what they want their weddings to be like someday and maybe they can learn from someone else’s mistake. I am sure the OP wouldn’t want the unintended consequence of condemnation to be that someday a grandchild would be aborted because their child sinned and decided to cover it up so that they wouldn’t face the same condemnation and no wedding ceremony. Lessons like that linger in a child’s head for years.

In this day and age the people who should feel the real shame aren’t held up for public condemnation or scorn because they take care of it very quietly.

I don’t think it is condemnation of this bride and John for getting pregnant. I think the criticisim is for not setting priorities.

Bride and John are engaged, planning a wedding. She gets pregnant. Goes full term which is nine months, has baby, and waits some more so she can have the wedding she dreamed of.

I don’t think the OP was against a wedding ceremony. He was against the big “do”.

If you have a man who loves you and you love him and find out you are pregnant, I’d marry him ASAP. You are a family. Your priority is the child. Someday baby will be able to count. I would prefer he knew Mom and Dad married quickly and didn’t wait 18 months so Mom could have a big party. And strange things happen like Dad getting killed in an accident. I’d prefer to know my baby was legally protected and had his Dad’s name.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Good point about the legal protection.

 

[mommamia]

In my state, my son was “legally protected” from birth. And had his father’s name. Unless the father wants to contest it, it is pretty easy to have his name on the birth certificate from birth. All he had to do was sign it at the hospital. As I understand it most states have some kind of procedure for unmarried parents.

Yes, he knows we got married after he was born. He knows we were engaged, and pushed back the wedding. He even knows we waited because I was pregnant and wanted a larger wedding. It doesn’t seem to have scarred him. At least not nearly as much as the children I know who’s parents did it “right” and ended up divorced.

Besides, how many of those couples who did it “right” are also having sex before marriage? So are we saying its alright…as long as you use “protection” and keep it quiet? How many babies may have been killed, because some young woman was scared she wouldn’t get the wedding she wanted, or that people would judge her so harshly?

I still don’t think Our Lord would have made this girl feel inferior, and that is what I feel you are doing. You are saying “You made a mistake, and now you do not deserve to have what other brides have”. You are saying she is not as good as others. I think its sad.

 

[aicirt]

In my state, my son was “legally protected” from birth. And had his father’s name. Unless the father wants to contest it, it is pretty easy to have his name on the birth certificate from birth. All he had to do was sign it at the hospital. As I understand it most states have some kind of procedure for unmarried parents.

Yes, he knows we got married after he was born. He knows we were engaged, and pushed back the wedding. He even knows we waited because I was pregnant and wanted a larger wedding. It doesn’t seem to have scarred him. At least not nearly as much as the children I know who’s parents did it “right” and ended up divorced.

Besides, how many of those couples who did it “right” are also having sex before marriage? So are we saying its alright…as long as you use “protection” and keep it quiet? How many babies may have been killed, because some young woman was scared she wouldn’t get the wedding she wanted, or that people would judge her so harshly?

I still don’t think Our Lord would have made this girl feel inferior, and that is what I feel you are doing. You are saying “You made a mistake, and now you do not deserve to have what other brides have”. You are saying she is not as good as others. I think its sad.

No, I didn’t. I’ve repeatedly said she should have a wedding but it should be before the baby is born.

Our Lord wouldn’t want her to feel inferior. Christ would want her to follow His Mother’s example of what to do in this situation. The BVM was engaged, got pregnant, got married, had baby.

 

[sanctamaria17]

The BVM was also living in a time where she could have been killed for adultery, when it was known that the baby was not St. Joseph’s (and obviously, the whole, “It’s God’s baby” was not going to hold water then, just as it wouldn’t now, even if it were true).

And, Bridezilla aside, why is it wrong for her to have a larger wedding? She’ll be figuring out finances soon enough, but this is ONE day she’ll get to celebrate with all her friends and family.

As for legal protection, my aunt was unmarried, but she got it and my cousin has his dad’s name.

Sheesh…I have to agree with mommamia’s sentiment about abortion and contraception. If I was in that situation I’d want to say to my kids, “Yes, your dad and I sinned, but we repented and God gave you to us. The day we did marry, it was joyous because our whole family and all of our friends were able to celebrate with us, with all three of us. We didn’t rush things or hide in shame, but we made the day truly special. We wanted all of our friends and family to be there, so we waited, prayed, and focused on your arrival first.”

Many brides and grooms don’t have much money, especially if they marry young. My parents were 21, my mom got her Associate’s and my dad got a cheap apartment…didn’t stop them from having their big day, with all their friends. If I marry young, I’ll have a cheap apartment, student loans, and grad school at my plate, but I will save for a big day, and still make payments…because I only get it once and I have a big family, plus a ton of dear friends…So if this is about money, then maybe all brides and grooms should just have a tiny ceremony unless they do what society says and wait until they have big bank accounts (NOT most of us) and until they realize they have limited fertility years left…and maybe only rich people get to have big weddings…

So if this is about finances, let he who be without sin cast the first stone. Baby aside, I’d gather that a good portion of people throughout history still gave as much to have a wedding feast, regardless of whether or not the bride was pregnant.

OP, the decision to attend is yours or not, but her decision about this isn’t your business and unless she asks, I’d refrain from advice.

 

[GraceDK]

In my state, my son was “legally protected” from birth. And had his father’s name. Unless the father wants to contest it, it is pretty easy to have his name on the birth certificate from birth. All he had to do was sign it at the hospital. As I understand it most states have some kind of procedure for unmarried parents.

Yes, he knows we got married after he was born. He knows we were engaged, and pushed back the wedding. He even knows we waited because I was pregnant and wanted a larger wedding. It doesn’t seem to have scarred him. At least not nearly as much as the children I know who’s parents did it “right” and ended up divorced.

Besides, how many of those couples who did it “right” are also having sex before marriage? So are we saying its alright…as long as you use “protection” and keep it quiet? How many babies may have been killed, because some young woman was scared she wouldn’t get the wedding she wanted, or that people would judge her so harshly?

I still don’t think Our Lord would have made this girl feel inferior, and that is what I feel you are doing. You are saying “You made a mistake, and now you do not deserve to have what other brides have”. You are saying she is not as good as others. I think its sad.

There is definately more than finances on this thread. The scandal was clearly mentioned in the opening post and how the OP perceived he had some odd right to advice the bride, whom, as far as I understand, is not even related to him.
Then there was the babblings of others too, like manualman who had the ridiculous idea to call a daughter of God who has gone to confession a… “forniatrix” …
In short. I agree with your posts.
The fact is not one of us ever did anything right except for the few times where it was through God’s grace alone. All we have is our sin and total dependance on His Mercy.
I think this thread is truly sad.

 

[jmcrae]

Somehow, up until the most very recent times, most people managed to get through puberty and into marriage before they started having sex. They didn’t have any less sex drive back then; in fact, they had a lot more kids than we do, today, once they actually got married. But they valued marriage and family - they didn’t equate sex with a sporting event where one gains “bases” or “scores” based on the level of physical involvement. They would have found such an analogy to be very offensive. By treating it as sacred, they were able to remain virgins until their wedding days - yes, even the men.

There are people in this thread who are making it seem like sleeping together before marriage is on the same level as a bit of gossiping, or walking off with someone’s pen, or telling a little white lie to a telephone solicitor - “we’re all sinners, so we can’t judge.” You walk off with someone’s pen, or you tell a telephone solicitor that you’re busy with something important, and then suddenly, you aren’t allowed to say that sleeping together before marriage is a bad idea that you don’t want your kids to think is “okay”?

I doubt that we’d see the same hand-wringing if the OP’s daughter’s god-mother had committed murder, or grand larceny, and yet, sex outside of marriage is not any less serious than these.

 

[mommamia]

There are people in this thread who are making it seem like sleeping together before marriage is on the same level as a bit of gossiping, or walking off with someone’s pen, or telling a little white lie to a telephone solicitor - “we’re all sinners, so we can’t judge.” You walk off with someone’s pen, or you tell a telephone solicitor that you’re busy with something important, and then suddenly, you aren’t allowed to say that sleeping together before marriage is a bad idea that you don’t want your kids to think is “okay”?

James 2:10

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

 

[jmcrae]

James 2:10

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

So then, if St. James was a sinner, even in one point, then we don’t have to listen to him, either, do we? We can just gaily sin our little brains out with no fear of correction, because we can just say to him, “Oh, but you are being judgmental!!” :tsktsk:

Because the only sin you can be chastised for, apparently, is to “be judgmental” - anything else goes, and then when you get to the Throne of Judgment, you can say, “But nobody told me I was doing wrong!!”

 

[GodIsGracious]

There is definately more than finances on this thread. The scandal was clearly mentioned in the opening post and how the OP perceived he had some odd right to advice the bride, whom, as far as I understand, is not even related to him.
Then there was the babblings of others too, like manualman who had the ridiculous idea to call a daughter of God who has gone to confession a… “forniatrix” …
In short. I agree with your posts.
The fact is not one of us ever did anything right except for the few times where it was through God’s grace alone. All we have is our sin and total dependance on His Mercy.
I think this thread is truly sad.

[bolded emphasis mine]

Yep. Completely agree. By these standards I have more of a “right” to a huge white wedding, and I assure people I am no more deserving of one than the bride to be.

That said, to the OP: Do the bride a favor and go with your option #1. It would be the charitable thing to do for her so she could enjoy her day with those who wish to celebrate her new life and are willing to put the past in the past.

 

[mommamia]

So then, if St. James was a sinner, even in one point, then we don’t have to listen to him, either, do we? We can just gaily sin our little brains out with no fear of correction, because we can just say to him, “Oh, but you are being judgmental!!” :tsktsk:

Because the only sin you can be chastised for, apparently, is to “be judgmental” - anything else goes, and then when you get to the Throne of Judgment, you can say, “But nobody told me I was doing wrong!!”

No, we should go forth and try our best not to sin. And to seek repentance, forgiveness and to make amends when we do.

I’m reminded of more of Jesus’s beautiful words… John 8:7

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I’m just concerned at the words of some, when He who we call our king often hung out with prostitutes, tax collectors and other “undesirables”. He saved his harshest words for those who would condemn, and yes judge.

 

[GraceDK]

Somehow, up until the most very recent times, most people managed to get through puberty and into marriage before they started having sex. They didn’t have any less sex drive back then; in fact, they had a lot more kids than we do, today, once they actually got married. But they valued marriage and family - they didn’t equate sex with a sporting event where one gains “bases” or “scores” based on the level of physical involvement. They would have found such an analogy to be very offensive. By treating it as sacred, they were able to remain virgins until their wedding days - yes, even the men.

There are people in this thread who are making it seem like sleeping together before marriage is on the same level as a bit of gossiping, or walking off with someone’s pen, or telling a little white lie to a telephone solicitor - “we’re all sinners, so we can’t judge.” You walk off with someone’s pen, or you tell a telephone solicitor that you’re busy with something important, and then suddenly, you aren’t allowed to say that sleeping together before marriage is a bad idea that you don’t want your kids to think is “okay”?

I doubt that we’d see the same hand-wringing if the OP’s daughter’s god-mother had committed murder, or grand larceny, and yet, sex outside of marriage is not any less serious than these.

Jmcrae. You are not being quite fair here.
Look, anyone who has ever experienced crushing remorse - and I should think any born again person has, at least when they came into a conscious relationship with Jesus - knows how hard it is to have stumbled… how dissapointed one can be with one self. Especially sins in the sexual department are so shameful and hard to bear, even when we have confessed.
We do not say that premarital sex is nothing much… Its a huge deal… more than anything its a personal tragedy. But let me tell you, if you have never been on the ground in tears over something you did you will probably be in that spot someday infront of God, wondering how you can live on with your self. On that day you are already laying down… you dont need your brothers to come and kick you and remind you how ashamed you ought to be.

Peter denied Jesus… while this was yet fresh in the memory of all, Peter stood up and preached salvation to 3000 men in Jerusalem. Did Peter the traitor deserve the Holy Spirit? The Pentecost is the Greatest Wedding, the greatest HONOUR God could bestow on man… and the Holy Spirit consumated it with those who betrayed the Saviour.

We are not pro-sin. But we are against the pharisaich lack of compassion,lack of sincere empathy with a sister in Christ, and the lack of realisation of own sins and unworthyness that are so evident in many posts here.

Peace.