Moral Dilemma re. a wedding

[jmcrae]

No, we should go forth and try our best not to sin. And to seek repentance, forgiveness and to make amends when we do.

I’m reminded of more of Jesus’s beautiful words… John 8:7

I’m just concerned at the words of some, when He who we call our king often hung out with prostitutes, tax collectors and other “undesirables”. He saved his harshest words for those who would condemn, and yes judge.

These repentant sinners could not even lift up their eyes from the ground, because they were so ashamed of themselves. They were not carrying on as if what they had done was nothing to worry about.

St. Margaret of Cortona had a child out of wedlock - she did not celebrate this event with a big white wedding. Indeed, rather than putting on a white dress, eating fancy cake, and drinking expensive champagne, she put on sack-cloth and ashes, and ate and drank nothing but bread and water for 20 years. Yes, our sins are forgiven by Christ - but it doesn’t mean that we carry on as normal, afterwards.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Is it just me, or does it seem that some people are ready to sew a scarlet letter on everyone who has not led the a most righteous path?

Can the rest of us who should be in the receiving end of a scarlet letter request which letter we would prefer? Or does that get assigned?

 

[GraceDK]

These repentant sinners could not even lift up their eyes from the ground, because they were so ashamed of themselves. They were not carrying on as if what they had done was nothing to worry about.

St. Margaret of Cortona had a child out of wedlock - she did not celebrate this event with a big white wedding. Indeed, rather than putting on a white dress, eating fancy cake, and drinking expensive champagne, she put on sack-cloth and ashes, and ate and drank nothing but bread and water for 20 years. Yes, our sins are forgiven by Christ - but it doesn’t mean that we carry on as normal, afterwards.

With all due respect
if you have never been a prodigal son
you dont know the ways which our Father deals with sinners.
I am at once happy and sad for you that you don’t know what it means when you feel everything is lost, and the Father runs to you and He puts a ring on your finger, slaughters the pork and says “let’s party, for my child was dead and now he/she is alive”…
You do not know the battle that has occured in the young lady’s heart, the horror, the trembling… the brokeness and the restoration as Jesus reached out His Hand and said: “Stand up… why do you keep weeping? Dont you see I have washed you white as snow?”

Do you believe that Jesus washes us white in snow?
Do you?
Can you stand to be in Heaven when we stand next to you and shine like suns, more than any earthly bride?

I just want to PRAISE JESUS because I dont have to live on a stone. God wants me free and courageous and preaching the Word about freedom… not beating myself up, when He has already taken that beating once and for all and we both know it.

 

[mommamia]

These repentant sinners could not even lift up their eyes from the ground, because they were so ashamed of themselves. They were not carrying on as if what they had done was nothing to worry about.

St. Margaret of Cortona had a child out of wedlock - she did not celebrate this event with a big white wedding. Indeed, rather than putting on a white dress, eating fancy cake, and drinking expensive champagne, she put on sack-cloth and ashes, and ate and drank nothing but bread and water for 20 years. Yes, our sins are forgiven by Christ - but it doesn’t mean that we carry on as normal, afterwards.

But…how do you know she isn’t truly repentive? I mean, maybe she isn’t. Maybe she doesn’t see anything wrong with what she did. But maybe it has caused her a great deal of pain, maybe she has repented, and been forgiven. Maybe God is happy that she is able to accept his forgiveness and move on instead of living of life devoid of happiness. I really don’t think God or Jesus wants us to be unhappy all the time. What was the point of Jesus’s sacrifice if we are not truly forgiven. Are you saying his sacrifice wasn’t enough? Are you saying that we should all live our lives in sack-clothe and ashes, and only eat or drink bread and water. Because we are all sinners who would deserve that. But that isn’t the kind of life our God wants for us. That is why he made the ultimate sacrifice. So we could be forgiven.

Matthew 6:17

17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

 

[aicirt]

Let’s check the original post:

Jane is unemployed, living on food stamps, estranged from her family.
John is MINIMALLY employed graduate student.

They will pay for wedding themselves.

Priest said he would marry them ASAP. Jane didn’t want that.

OP poster said have small wedding. And I must apologize to OP because since Jane is estranged from her family, he/she had an obligation to suggest to Jane big do might not be the way to go.

Jane turned down priest and to OP said “I want what I want and I’m gonna have what I want.” Which would have sent out a big signal to me that she can be a very willful person. And I would be wondering what John got himself into.

 

[mommamia]

Let’s check the original post:

Jane is unemployed, living on food stamps, estranged from her family.
John is MINIMALLY employed graduate student.

They will pay for wedding themselves.

Priest said he would marry them ASAP. Jane didn’t want that.

OP poster said have small wedding. And I must apologize to OP because since Jane is estranged from her family, he/she had an obligation to suggest to Jane big do might not be the way to go.

Jane turned down priest and to OP said “I want what I want and I’m gonna have what I want.” Which would have sent out a big signal to me that she can be a very willful person. And I would be wondering what John got himself into.

And your point is…?

 

[aicirt]

And your point is…?

Make believe this is your kid marrying her or you’re her mother. She’s selfish and unrealistic. She’s ready to go into debt for this pleasure. It is not a necessity. I do not like her attitude. I’d be wondering if the baby was planned on her part. And if her parents aren’t involved, how much are the groom’s parents expected to put in for what she wants?

 

[mommamia]

Make believe this is your kid marrying her or you’re her mother. She’s selfish and unrealistic. She’s ready to go into debt for this pleasure. It is not a necessity. I do not like her attitude. I’d be wondering if the baby was planned on her part. And if her parents aren’t involved, how much are the groom’s parents expected to put in for what she wants?

I see the problem now. You don’t like her attitude.

If she was my kid, I’d be happy she was choosing the right path in the end. And yes, I would celebrate just as the father of the prodigal son chose to. If it was my son, I would be proud that he is willing to step up and take care of his family. And I would feel honored if they let me help with the wedding expenses.

I’m sure glad that my grandmother (who raised me) didn’t feel as you do. Instead she chose to love me, and help me to celebrate my day the way I wanted to celebrate.

But I did have an aunt who wouldn’t shut up, the whole family was scandalized that she would act that way about it. Just because she’s “such a good Catholic”.

 

[aicirt]

I see the problem now. You don’t like her attitude.

If she was my kid, I’d be happy she was choosing the right path in the end. And yes, I would celebrate just as the father of the prodigal son chose to. If it was my son, I would be proud that he is willing to step up and take care of his family. And I would feel honored if they let me help with the wedding expenses.

I’m sure glad that my grandmother (who raised me) didn’t feel as you do. Instead she chose to love me, and help me to celebrate my day the way I wanted to celebrate.

But I did have an aunt who wouldn’t shut up, the whole family was scandalized that she would act that way about it. Just because she’s “such a good Catholic”.

Of course I don’t like her attitude nor did the OP and I bet the priest didn’t either.

Sure I’d be proud of son stepping up and taking care of his family. I wouldn’t be happy that his bride wanted to put him in debt when he doesn’t even have a job. And if they have additional financial problems, I’d be thinking, without her family, I guess we’ll be bailing them out. And that projection comes from facing reality.

I can’t even imagine if she were my daughter, with no money, and wanted a big wedding after the baby was born.

And if grandmother didn’t help you celebrate your day the way you wanted to celebrate, that would mean she didn’t love you? If your grandmother had the money to give you that day, wonderful. If she went into debt, not so wonderful. These people don’t even have a job. My parents gave me a wedding they could afford. No debt involved.

I said before everyone should have a wedding that doesn’t mean it needs to be a big do especially when you cannot afford it.

 

[sharmin]

Just a question: Have you ever heard the Church deny a couple? I heard of it once when the man was discovered to have a wife. But if you are going through Canan, has anyone ever heard of a priest refusing to marry a couple?

I have heard of a case where a priest refused to marry someone. They would not stop living together prior to their wedding.

 

[sharmin]

I think I need to clarify here. I do not want them to “grieve because of their HUGE mistake” nor am I trying to make Jane a “target for my indignation”. Nor do I think the marriage isn’t worth celebrating.

As I said originally, "I’m certainly glad that she’s chosen to give her child life, and that she’s marrying John rather than denying her daughter a father." I’m glad they’re marrying in the church. I’m assuming that they’ve made the situation right with God. I will pray for many blessings on their marriage and on their child.

To further clarify: had they chosen to marry before their baby was born, it wouldn’t have been a shotgun wedding, because they were already engaged. As I understand it, our parish priest encouraged them to move the wedding date up. They chose to ignore him.

My issue isn’t the “what”, but the “how”.

If they were having a small, simple wedding and reception – even after the birth of the baby – there would be no dilemma; we’d definitely go. But to have an elaborate “do” when they’re flat broke and have a new baby seems to me to be both inappropriate and imprudent. My interest isn’t in punishment, but in maintaining standards.

I guess I just don’t see how the lavishness of their celebration (or lack thereof) should be any of your concern. I don’t understand why it would matter to you or your family. A marriage is a sacrament worth celebrating. Why does it matter how big of a celebration they make it? In a sense, the bigger the better. What a blessed thing to celebrate!!

 

[sharmin]

this isn’t just a random neighbor; it’s her daughter’s Godmother, the person who is supposed to be training up her daughter in the right way to live the Catholic life - how can she do this if she is getting pregnant out of wedlock?

The same way any other sinner is a Godparent. Or am I missing something…are some Godparents sin-free?

The question of whether to attend the wedding is tied in with the unspoken question, “Do we want this woman to be the Godmother of our daughter, any more?”

Again, how is this an issue of her not being a good Godparent? She made a mistake and is making it right. Isn’t this the best we can hope for our own children?

If you are a Godparent, then you have a very serious responsibility to set the good example of perfection in Christian life to the children who are under your spiritual care. You are the Image of Christ or the Image of Mary for that child - you must live the part.

True, but Godparents do not have a responsibility to be perfect. Thank God.

 

[sharmin]

With that tone of e-voice, what are you, the OP’s mother?

Except for the fact that the fornicatrix is the confirmation sponsor of her daughter…

Is your Godparent sin-free?

 

[Jesus_123]

** Just some gentle thoughts . . . since genuine love needs to be responsible . . . and it endeavors to be disciplined in its choices . . . and this is a real test for you as a Catholic and as a parent . . . **

**Questions: *** Have both Jane and John confessed up their sin of fornication to a priest and received absolution . . . ? . . .

• Have they discontinued . . . **“living together” ** . . . if they are doing so . . . which is another sin entirely . . . ? . . .
• Have they discontinued the intimacy that belongs . . . only in wedlock . . . during this time during which they are waiting for the “wedding” ceremony . . . ? . . . which sin . . . if they have not . . . would multiply sin upon sin . . .

Your “Jane” . . . by your post . . . seems to be a very willful creature . . . and by her attitude as you have shared . . . seems very insincere as a Catholic child of God . . . if the answers to any-or-all of the above questions is . . . “no” . . . then as a devout Catholic I don’t see how you can participate with them if they are entering into the **Holy Vocation of Marriage **. . . (which is not just a wedding ceremony) . . . which Vocation is a Holy Calling of God and a Holy Sacrament . . . with unconfessed and unabsolved sins on their consciences . . . **Fornication is a mortal/grave sin **. . . which injures the soul of those sinning grieviously . . . and creates a profound separation because of same . . . between our Wonderful Lord . . . and the sinful individual(s) . . . who are attempting to avoid God’s Holy Pathways . . . to just “get whatever they want no-mattter-what” . . . God does not participate in or bless unions that are not entered into with holy reverence for Him and His Pathways . . . **to pretend **that He does is delusion ****. . . lying to oneself . . . and to try to enter into a Sacrement of the Apostolic Holy Roman Catholic Church . . . in a state of sin . . . is yet another sin . . .

As a church secretary of many years . . . I’ve been through this soul searching question . . . twice . . . where the answer was . . . ** “no”** . . . on the part of the couple . . . to the above questions . . . and the Sweet Holy Spirit of our God kept me and my family . . . very calmly and very quietly . . . with discretion . . . away from the weddings . . .

I really feel you need to inquire of your friend “Jane” re the above questions . . . if she is not forthright and has not repented and renounced her sin . . . then . . . . if . . . ** God **. . . is NOT welcomed into the planned marriage . . . for Who He Is in all His Holiness . . . at this point . . . how can you participate in something that is ****not of the Lord because He has not been welcomed as their Lord ** **. . . no matter what the facade of outward appearance is . . . and if she objects to your questions . . . just share with her that you are in the process of trying to raise children in God’s Holy Pathways . . . and are trying to walk therein yourself . . . and to participate in something that may not be of the Lord is not something you feel you can be a part of . . . and if she will not be forthright and honest with you . . . don’t go to the wedding . . . though you can stress to your children that you all need to forgive the couple. . . and pray for them . . . This situation is a real sadness and fraught with complications . . . and very much a product of the day and age we live in . . . my prayers are with you . . . and just because you might not go to her wedding . . . doesn’t mean you will stop loving her and praying for them . . . as some of the posters have suggested you might do . . .

I really take offense at the poster who compared this to the holy and virginal . . . Blessed Virgin Mary . . . who was completely without sin every day of her holy and virginal life . . . what a awful thing to try compare our **. . . Holy Mother . . . who is the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION personified . . . **to sinful mankind . . . NOT marvelous . . .

“But the LORD said unto Samuel,
Look not on his countenance,
or on the height of his stature;
because I have refused him:
for the LORD seeth not as man seeth;
for man looketh on the outward appearance,
but the LORD looketh on the heart.”
I Samuel 16:7
:bible1:

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . holy Mother Mary+
. . . please guide and grant wisdom+
​

 

[jmcrae]

I see the problem now. You don’t like her attitude.

If she was my kid, I’d be happy she was choosing the right path in the end. And yes, I would celebrate just as the father of the prodigal son chose to. If it was my son, I would be proud that he is willing to step up and take care of his family.

And how is he to be expected to fulfill this responsibility, when not only does he have no job, he is right away being thrown into $30,000.00 of debt or more? How will he purchase a house or car? How will he send his child to college?

 

[mommamia]

And how is he to be expected to fulfill this responsibility, when not only does he have no job, he is right away being thrown into $30,000.00 of debt or more? How will he purchase a house or car? How will he send his child to college?

How do you know how much it costs? I had quite a nice wedding, for much, much less.

In the end, you are going to feel like you feel. Obviously we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

I am saddened though. You and I really don’t know anything about these people. For all I know once his school is completed he will make more money than you and I put together.

I don’t know if this couple is “right” or “wrong”. Even if they were fairly close friends, I don’t personally feel like I could know for sure. I just believe that we are called to look for and expect the best in people. Because things aren’t always as they seem.

 

[Karoline]

Sure I’d be proud of son stepping up and taking care of his family. I wouldn’t be happy that his bride wanted to put him in debt when he doesn’t even have a job. And if they have additional financial problems, I’d be thinking, without her family, I guess we’ll be bailing them out. And that projection comes from facing reality.

I can’t even imagine if she were my daughter, with no money, and wanted a big wedding after the baby was born.

My cousin has just had a baby with his fiance, they are soon to be married. Little Baby B will be about 6 months old. My cousin is just about to finish his PhD at University and is unemployed, Baby B’s Mummy works at the University on a minimum wage. They do not have a lot of money, but they get by.

My Aunt (Cousin’s Mum), My Mum (Cousin’s God-Mother) and my other Aunts and Uncles will all be rallying around and paying for little bits and pieces as Wedding Gifts for the soon-to-be-happily married couple.

They are having a HUGE wedding day, white dress, veil, cake, nice car, reception, the lot and y’know what, I hope they really, really enjoy themselves. As it has been mentioned previously, this is the ONE day that they are going to get married, if they want to spend £100 or £100,000 it is no one’s business but theirs and whomsoever happens to be helping to pay for the wedding for them. (In the OP’s case, they are paying for the wedding entirely themselves so what is the problem?!)

If they feel they are capable of paying for their perfect wedding day and still supporting their newborn who’s place is it to judge their apparent ‘attitude problems’ simply because the Bride happened to mention what she wanted for her ONE wedding day?!

It seems to me that the OP doesn’t want to, at least in part, go to the wedding because of the Baby, well, again as I’m sure has been previously mentioned, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. All sins are the same in God’s eyes whether that is sex before marriage or picking a sweet out of the pick-n-mix and eating it without paying for it. You have still broken one of God’s commandments.

Just because poor Jane’s sin appears to be more ‘visible’ than others does not mean that she should be harshly judged and denied the wedding she has always dreamed of. I’m sure plenty of ‘good Catholic couples’ have had sex before marriage and because their fornication did not end in a baby, they have been allowed to marry in the way that they wished with no one judging their choices.

If financial situations were always taken into account when it came to weddings, heck, I’m getting married in a car park, with no guests, wearing my work uniform, because there’s no way I’ll be able to pay for the wedding I want without help!

 

[whatevergirl]

*Karoline–I love love love your sig line.

I also echo your post. *

 

[mommamia]

Of course I don’t like her attitude nor did the OP and I bet the priest didn’t either.

Sure I’d be proud of son stepping up and taking care of his family. I wouldn’t be happy that his bride wanted to put him in debt when he doesn’t even have a job. And if they have additional financial problems, I’d be thinking, without her family, I guess we’ll be bailing them out. And that projection comes from facing reality.

I can’t even imagine if she were my daughter, with no money, and wanted a big wedding after the baby was born.

And if grandmother didn’t help you celebrate your day the way you wanted to celebrate, that would mean she didn’t love you? If your grandmother had the money to give you that day, wonderful. If she went into debt, not so wonderful. These people don’t even have a job. My parents gave me a wedding they could afford. No debt involved.

I said before everyone should have a wedding that doesn’t mean it needs to be a big do especially when you cannot afford it.

I did not say grandma paid for the wedding, just that she helped out. The love was there in her support and guidance, instead of condemnation and shame. And the help and support came all of my family, in ways they could afford. DH and I paid for most of it ourselves. Obviously we are horrible parents and have no sense of responsibility After all, I chose to be a stay at home mom, even though dh didn’t make a whole lot of money. Why sometimes we actually had to do without things we wanted!! But everybody has always been fed, clothed and housed, and usually there’s been a little left over to help those less fortunate than us.

I even gasp paid for my own college education. It didn’t seem to hurt me. However I am so glad for the support and love shown to me by my family and parish. I had one aunt who sounded like some of you on this thread… she was so scandalized that I would not marry before the baby was born. She ended up alienating me, my family and sadly some of her own friends. Heck the priest even tried to talk to her about Christian charity (she was the DRE at this parish) but was brushed aside, because she was so sure she was right. Of course, in this case she wouldn’t just keep quiet and miss the wedding (as the OP is exploring), but instead complained loudly to anyone who would listen about how irresponsible and sinful we were.

 

[jmcrae]

How do you know how much it costs? I had quite a nice wedding, for much, much less.

All weddings are nice, and all brides are beautiful.

Indeed, a small tasteful wedding would probably suit the situation very well - which is all anyone here has been saying. There is no need to put on the big splash - especially under the circumstances.