Moral issue of going to a VERY wiccan house and a VERY wiccan "family" friend

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Fair enough, I accept that is your belief. 🙂

So much to learn and understand about christian beliefs.:o
 
StrawberryJam said:
If they had prayed to the Holy Spirit, why would they need to cast the lots at all?:confused:

Where was their faith in getting an answer directly from the Holy Spirit?

Can we cast lots today? Why or why not?
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Well, the Pope is elected by casting lots. So the Church has no problem with it.
 
Jack17 said:
What if there’s a converted wiccan to catholic, she was a powerful witch and the real deal. She quit but one day there was a car accident about to happen with two cars full of families. The only way she could prevent this is through magic and channeling good spirits to stop the cars. Like I said the top witch. Should she used her magic or watch them both die and crash in front of her? What would you do with those powers? That’s like 10 lives there.
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Why would one turn to Channeling good spirits rather than turning to Christ Jesus Himself Who uses no magic…only Himself?
What you said makes no sense…at least not common sense.

God didn’t forbid us to use magic except for in cases of death. He forbids the use of magic or anything to do with magic…PERIOD.

So I guess that if she converted to Catholicism, she would pray to God, and never again use any sort of magic.

Either you obey God, or you disobey God. He sets before you the road of Life, and the road of death. It is your decision, you must choose one. To obey Him is to love Him. Without loving him, one goes to Hell.
Choose.
 
StrawberryJam said:
He let his people use it.

I dont have my list handy, but the first one I can remember is casting lots for a new apostle. I believe there are at least two other examples of it being used without his objection. One in Genesis too. Not to mention the divining rod.
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Casting lots is not magic.

King Saul used divination, and was persecuted for the rest of his life by demons who could only be made to depart when David played music for him.
God took away the kingship of Saul because he disobeyed God.

God never let his people use magic.
 
Deo_Volente said:
Grace & Peace!

Casting of lots for divinatory purposes is found throughout the Bible (see Samuel consulting his stones when presented with the sons of Jesse).
The line between magic and religion is often a very fine one–often the spiritual technologies used (rites/practices) are similar if not identical.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
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You are mistaken. Samuel never cast stones to figure out that David was God’s chosen.

***1Kings:14 6-15
"6 And when they were come in, he saw Eliab, and said: Is the Lord’s anointed before him? 7 And the Lord said to Samuel: Look not on his countenance, nor on the height of his stature: because I have rejected him, nor do I judge according to the look of man: for man seeth those things that appear, but the Lord beholdeth the heart. 8 And Isai called Abinadab, and brought him before Samuel. And he said: Neither hath the Lord chosen this. 9 And Isai brought Samma, and he said of him: Neither hath the Lord chosen this. 10 Isai therefore brought his seven sons before Samuel: and Samuel said to Isai: The Lord hath not chosen any one of these.

11 And Samuel said to Isai: Are here all thy sons? He answered: There remaineth yet a young one, who keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said to Isai: Send, and fetch him, for we will not sit down till he come hither. 12 He sent therefore and brought him Now he was ruddy and beautiful to behold, and of a comely face. And the Lord said: Arise, and anoint him, for this is he. 13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward: and Samuel rose up, and went to Ramatha. 14 But the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him. 15 And the servants of Saul said to him: Behold now an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

14 “From the Lord”… An evil spirit, by divine permission, and for his punishment, either possessed or obsessed him."***

However, Saul used a divining witch to try to find out what he was supposed to do:

***1Kings:28 7-19
7" And Saul said to his servants: Seek me a woman that hath a divining spirit, and I will go to her, and inquire by her. And his servants said to him: There is a woman that hath a divining spirit at Endor. 8 Then he disguised himself: and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night, and he said to her: Divine to me by thy divining spirit, and bring me up him whom I shall tell thee. 9 And the woman said to him: Behold thou knowest all that Saul hath done, and how he hath rooted out the magicians and soothsayers from the land: why then dost thou lay a snare for my life, to cause me to be put to death? 10 And Saul swore unto her by the Lord, saying: As the Lord liveth there shall no evil happen to thee for this thing.

11 And the woman said to him: Whom shall I bring up to thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice, and said to Saul: Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said to her: Fear not: what hast thou seen? And the woman said to Saul: I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said to her: What form is he of? And she said: An old man cometh up, and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul understood that it was Samuel, and he bowed himself with his face to the ground, and adored. 15 And Samuel said to Saul: Why hast thou disturbed my rest, that I should be brought up? And Saul said, I am in great distress: for the Philistines fight against me, and God is departed from me, and would not hear me, neither by the hand of prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest shew me what I shall do.

14 “Understood that it was Samuel”… It is the more common opinion of the holy fathers, and interpreters, that the soul of Samuel appeared indeed: and not, as some have imagined, an evil spirit in his shape. Not that the power of her magic could bring him thither, but that God was pleased for the punishment of Saul, that Samuel himself should denounce unto him the evils that were falling upon him. See Eccli. 46. 23.

16 And Samuel said: Why askest thou me, seeing the Lord has departed from thee, and is gone over to thy rival: 17 For the Lord will do to thee as he spoke by me, and he will rend thy kingdom out of thy hand, and will give it to thy neighbour David: 18 Because thou didst not obey the voice of the Lord, neither didst thou execute the wrath of his indignation upon Amalec. Therefore hath the Lord done to thee what thou sufferest this day. 19 And the Lord also will deliver Israel with thee into the hands of the Philistines: and tomorrow thou and thy sons shall be with me: and the Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines. 20 And forthwith Saul fell all along on the ground, for he was frightened with the words of Samuel, and there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no bread all that day.

19 “With me”… That is, in the state of the dead, and in another world, though not in the same place. "***

God forbids us to fool with in anyway witchcraft, sorcery, divination, astrology. He doesn’t give exeptions…He has no need. Prayer is more than enough. Whatever we cannot attain through prayers to Heaven, we are forbidden.
 
“God forbids us to fool with in anyway witchcraft, sorcery, divination, astrology. He doesn’t give exeptions…He has no need. Prayer is more than enough. Whatever we cannot attain through prayers to Heaven, we are forbidden.”

Where does he do this? Where the OT says “suffer not a witch to live?”
 
^ Who cares what the old woman does. It’s her religion and in this country she can do what she pleased with her religion as long as she isn’t hurting anyone. I bet there’s some religions think what Catholic do is a sin.

Respect those and earn respect. As long as you don’t engage in magic if your a Catholic.
 
StrawberryJam said:
“God forbids us to fool with in anyway witchcraft, sorcery, divination, astrology. He doesn’t give exeptions…He has no need. Prayer is more than enough. Whatever we cannot attain through prayers to Heaven, we are forbidden.”

Where does he do this? Where the OT says “suffer not a witch to live?”
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I never said it says “suffer not a witch to live.”. However, I can find the verses which state we are forbidden to associate with such as these. Give me a chance.
 
Jesus_N_Cherie said:
I never said it says “suffer not a witch to live.”. However, I can find the verses which state we are forbidden to associate with such as these. Give me a chance.
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I’m talking about Exodus 22:18

You must be talking about Deuteronomy 18:10?
 
Grace & Peace!
Jesus_N_Cherie said:
You are mistaken. Samuel never cast stones to figure out that David was God’s chosen.
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JesusNCherie, you are absolutely right! To my shame, I think a scene from an old movie on King David I saw when I was younger is to blame here! Ha! (How embarrassing!)

Samuel does cast lots to find Saul, though (1Samuel 10), and lots are cast to determine it was Jonah who caused the storm (Jonah 1:7). These are still instances of divination. Proverbs 16:33 is helpful here, too: “The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is the Lord’s alone.” So too Proverbs 18:18: “Casting the lot puts an end to disputes and decides between powerful contenders.” Again, this isn’t gambling or a game of chance that’s being discussed. It’s divination, no two ways about it.

Re: the witch of Endor, Saul consults her, but what she does is not divination but necromancy. There is a difference. Moreover, not all forms of divination are alike. Not all tend to fatalism and the renunciation of free will. Clearly, according to the Scriptures, some forms of divination were permitted and practiced.

Re: there not being exceptions…it depends on what exactly you’re talking about when you mention the things you mention. As well as what you mean by “exceptions.”
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It must be remembered that certain magical disciplines (which some traditionalists of the Rene Guenon school have termed “Sacred Sciences”) such as sacred geometry, astrology, and alchemy have enjoyed some popularity in the church.  Astrological correspondences were used in constructing the décor of some of the papal apartments (Leo X was apparently a devotee of astrology, and his court astrologer was astrologer to Clement VII as well), sacred geometry has often been employed in sacred architecture, and alchemy is rumored to have been practiced by St. Albertus Magnus, Pope Boniface VIII, Thomas Aquinas and Roger Bacon, among others.  Let us also not forget the uses the church has made of numerology (see John's Revelation!), and the various avenues of Christian Cabalistic thought (such as the thinking of Johannes Reuchlin) that found friendly ears in the Vatican.
And what of Botticelli’s “Primavera”? The scholar Frances Yates in the book “Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition” makes a compelling argument for accepting “Primavera” as a “magical” painting, constructed according to Platonic principles and Marsilio Ficino’s notions of magical sympathies (shape, color, image) in order to bring the positive influences of Venus, Jupiter and the Sun into the lives of its viewers.

And let’s not forget that Natural Magic (which purported to document the properties of things in the natural world which displayed the influence of celestial or supercelestial things) gave way to modern science–and most theologians (including, I believe, Aquinas) had no objection to Natural Magic. That is, an act of Natural Magic would have been: gathering particular herbs to make a poultice that soothed pain, for instance. The Magic here had no recourse to supernatural powers due to the idea that the objects in themselves were suffused with virtues borrowed from the stars, planets, or some subsisting grace–curing headache, cleaning things well, dulling pain, magnetism, that sort of thing.

I’m not saying these things to be incendiary. The gist of what I’m saying is that one should be careful to know exactly what one is condemning when one condemns something. Is astrology, for instance, “bad”? Insofar as it can lead one to renounce one’s free will, yes! Certainly! Insofar as it can lead to an unhealthy obsession with knowing what it has not been given one to know, yes! Certainly! Insofar as it represents a symbolic system detailing a network of relationships terrestrial and celestial? Well, I wouldn’t be so quick to judge that. I don’t even know that moral judgment is necessary in that case.

Anyway. My two cents.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
 
Sailor_Kenshin said:
In what way?

And didn’t the angel tell the lowly shepherds first? And then the Magi came…
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The Maggi were more than halfway there before the angel showed up to the shepherds!

They were traveling on a camel, not a rocket.
 
Grace & Peace!
Jesus_N_Cherie said:
The Maggi were astronomers…not astrologers. The difference between the two is extremely relevant.
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For us, perhaps, the distinction is relevant. At the time, that distinction was non-existent.

The Magi were most likely Zoroastrian priest-class astrologers / Chaldean priest-magicians. That’s just the way it is. The only reason to stare up the stars at the time was because you viewed them as significant–because your worldview taught you that they were for signs and portents if not direct reflections of movements in the spiritual realm which would have some bearing on life on earth. Some folks saw the constellations and planets as representative of demonic forces (keep in mind that the Greek DAIMON does not carry the same negative connotation that we associate with the word)–where the planets were with reference to the constellations could tell you a lot about what star demons were exerting what influence and would let you know how (through the operations of sympathetic magic) to avoid or amplify these influences.

JesusNCherie, cleaning up the Scriptures to make them accord more with our own cultural prejudices may be a comforting exercise, but ultimately it’s delusional. There is reality and there is the way we would like reality to look. The Magi were astrologers. That’s reality. They weren’t lab-coated believers in the scientific method rationally exploring interstellar space through high-powered telescopes. The disjunct between astrology and astronomy occurred fairly recently, largely as a result of the poorly named Age of Enlightenment. It’s nice when we can believe that other people in other times lived and believed just as we do, holding sacred the things we hold sacred and deriding the things we find worthy of derision. But for the most part, that sort of belief is a fantasy. Reality is more complex. And as a result, much more dangerous and interesting.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy. Deo gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!
Sailor_Kenshin said:
And you know this because…?
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History. But here’s an article that says basically the same thing, from the Catholic Education Resource Center. catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0191.html . The salient information is from the second paragraph of Fr. Saunders’ article called “The Magi”. I quote it here:

Oftentimes, the English translations of the Bible use the word “astrologers” for “magi.” In Greek, the original language of the Gospel, the word magos (magoi, plural) has four meanings: (1) a member of the priestly class of ancient Persia, where astrology and astronomy were prominent in Biblical times; (2) one who had occult knowledge and power, and was adept at dream interpretation, astrology, fortune-telling, divination and spiritual mediation; (3) a magician; or (4) a charlatan, who preyed upon people using the before-mentioned practices. From these possible definitions and the description provided in the gospel, the Magi were probably Persian priest-astrologers who could interpret the stars, particularly the significance of the star that proclaimed the birth of the Messiah. (Even the ancient historian Herodotus (d. 5th century B.C.) would attest to the astrological prowess of the priestly class of Persia.)
Note that I suspect Fr. Saunders inserts the word “astronomy” into his description just to make the Persian priests seem more legitimate to a contemporary reader. Obviously astronomical praxis was the means by which astrological knowledge was obtained. But again, the value judgment we make when we distinguish between astronomy and astrology was not made until recently and would have been foreign to the Magi.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
 
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