Morality of voting "lesser of two evils"?

[AveOTheotokos]

And it is of high importance that the next pres. will pick even several supreme court justices…

This is very important, as the ramifications we will face based on the the Supreme Court justice picks will likely be with us far longer than whoever the next president is. The vote for president could possibly be considered by some to be a vote for the future direction of the Supreme Court more than anything else.

 

[Bookcat]

Prudence is most prudent

The section you highlight is definitely the key. The motivation of starting this thread was to determine what those moral principles are in regards to balancing obligation to vote to prevent great evil vs. becoming guilty of material cooperation in the misdeeds of others, and to determine how we apply them to our current election situation to do the most good without being complicit in evil.

I am struggling (and assume I’m not the only one) with feeling that no matter what the choice, it is wrong in some way. It is really great to see all the differing opinions though, as it shows this is not an easy issue

And feelings are not the main key here.

Lots of things in life involve such like circumstances…hence remember just because they may do some evil does not mean that one is complicit in their evil. Or that it is wrong to in some way to vote for them. There are yes “legit” kinds of material cooperation that happen daily with by good Christians.

One must make a judgment - and vote.

(And some cases it can become rather clear - such as the reality of the life issues and supreme court and planned parenthood etc etc. Despite there being certain aspects one does not sign off on regarding the better canidate.)

 

[AveOTheotokos]

And feelings are not the main key here.

Lots of things in life involve such like circumstances…hence remember just because they may do some evil does not mean that one is complicit in their evil. Or that it is wrong to in some way to vote for them. There are yes “legit” kinds of material cooperation that happen daily with by good Christians.

One must make a judgment - and vote.

(And some cases it can become rather clear - such as the reality of the life issues and supreme court and planned parenthood etc etc. Despite there being certain aspects one does not sign off on regarding the better canidate.)

Feelings definitely are a distraction. Ultimately, it is only prayerful and prudent judgement that will guide us to the correct answer. To me and many others, it’s seems the life issues threatening the unborn are the most pressing at this time, and our votes should reflect that.

Whether we feel icky or not:juggle::hypno:

 

[Bookcat]

Feelings definitely are a distraction. Ultimately, it is only prayerful and prudent judgement that will guide us to the correct answer. To me and many others, it’s seems the life issues threatening the unborn are the most pressing at this time, and our votes should reflect that.

Whether we feel icky or not:juggle::hypno:

You know the choice to make - your feeling though are simply responding to the mixed circumstances…

Just vote and then go have a glass of wine.

 

[LethalMouse]

I read about the knife article. I do not think it is wrong. I doubt you are person of color do not insult the blacklivesmatter movement. Perhaps they would not exist if there was a difference in the way officers approach people of color. Surely not everyone has this experience. As for abortion, I will not vote on a candidate because of his stance on abortion. More important issues. Our nation is not a Christian nation why force people to adhere to our religions rules?

Nothing says equality like “you cant have an opinion because you arent my color”

That is what makes things like the BLM look bad. That mentality is racist PERIOD. It is no different than the horrible stuff pedded by the KKK “they cant know because of their color”

The only difference between one brand of racism and another is the color of the racist, both are equally sinful.

Since the BLM movement has some people executing cops INCLUDING BLACK ONES but not all BLM kill people…

The KKK sometiems kills people, but not all kkk kill people…

Their mantras are same. If you like BLM than you must like the KKK.

I LIKE NIETHER.

 

[LethalMouse]

LethalMouse;14053891:

Your implication based on your regurgitation of the BLM movement…

anywho…

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm

Yeah you might think this is crazy, then step back and think this is what your stance sounds like to me…

Now on the flip side if you want to advocate to get rid of lethal weapons then I wholeheartedly will agree if we alos ban rocks, trees, aluminum, iron and a bunch of other stuff…

But I ask you that when we ban all things and 10 evil people get together and create some weapons… How do we enforce the ban??? please tell me, assuming they have not killed me before you come up with an answer…

Child like thoughts are great but have a time and place.

my son said recently hearing of the shooting on the news “they should make guns super expensive like $50k or more so bad guys cant get them”

I asked him how our poor neighbors would hunt and afford the equivalent of hundreds of dollars of meat they get… “oh” he said “that is not good”

I asked him how would we have ours “Oh” he said “I thought good people…oh yeah that would not work”

He is 7, I expect simple ideas from a 7 year old…I also expect as people grow that they understand the realities of the world better.

The thing about the following is that when you have a herd of sheep if you think about it they know not why things are. Why is that fence there? why does the shepherd make us go over here? They do not know. If they are in charge they will wonder outside the fence, they will be at danger, like the sheep farm I pass to work daily, one got out of the fence and I had to avoid it with my car. It knows no better. But that sheep also does not wish to impose its will upon me.

hueysgunsight.blogspot.com/2011/02/which-are-you-sheep-wolf-sheepdogor-ram.html[/QUOTde sure all those things can be used as weapons. A gun is created solely to kill. This is exactly what I cannot stand about pro gun people. They try to make everything equivalent to guns. Face the facts a guns sole purpose is to kill. I would have more respect if people just owned up to that instead of pretending. You can kill more people with a gun that a knife, rock or anything made to be a weapon. I will be honest I could care less what Catholic church thinks. I will never just for a president because they are against abortion. I find more issues go be important

Really, this is someone who does not understand either science nor tactics.

9/11 was done via box cutters and airplanes and killed more people than all the mass shootings since put together.

A car and fertilizer can kill hundreds at once and the attacker need not even be present unlike a gun

Pressure cooker kills more

Lighting wildfires in sequence would kill more

Ammonia and Bleach in a building could take everyone out

Driving a renta truck down a NYC street could easily kill more people than most mass shootings

Dashing rat poison at buffets would easily end up killing more people

Seriously, go get trained on how to be a tactical killer and realize the hilarity of your ideas.

Most of these are easier to mass kill and GET away with.

Guns are a simple default of the angry, I am glad they use them, we can shoot them.

If they are made to think they will do more damage.
[/quote]

 

[PelagiathePenit]

PelagiathePenit;14054024:

Really, this is someone who does not understand either science nor tactics.

9/11 was done via box cutters and airplanes and killed more people than all the mass shootings since put together.

A car and fertilizer can kill hundreds at once and the attacker need not even be present unlike a gun

Pressure cooker kills more

Lighting wildfires in sequence would kill more

Ammonia and Bleach in a building could take everyone out

Driving a renta truck down a NYC street could easily kill more people than most mass shootings

Dashing rat poison at buffets would easily end up killing more people

Seriously, go get trained on how to be a tactical killer and realize the hilarity of your ideas.

Most of these are easier to mass kill and GET away with.

Guns are a simple default of the angry, I am glad they use them, we can shoot them.

If they are made to think they will do more damage.

what weapon is more commonly used by civilians to kill others? I know you think I am irrational. You lost my respect by not acknowledging that fact that gun violence is more reported on the news. Comparing blacklivesmatter movement to the Kkk is ridiculous. The Kkk solely exists based on white supremacy. Blacklivesmatter barely came into existence and are they really responsible for the cop killing. They developed as a reaction to the police brutality against minorities. It is insulting to even compare too. I am not blind to blacks being racist towards whites blm is not equivalent to KKK in any shape or form. You called me the unreasonable one, seriously?

 

[LethalMouse]

LethalMouse;14054850:

what weapon is more commonly used by civilians to kill others? I know you think I am irrational. You lost my respect by not acknowledging that fact that gun violence is more reported on the news. Comparing blacklivesmatter movement to the Kkk is ridiculous. The Kkk solely exists based on white supremacy. Blacklivesmatter barely came into existence and are they really responsible for the cop killing. They developed as a reaction to the police brutality against minorities. It is insulting to even compare too. I am not blind to blacks being racist towards whites blm is not equivalent to KKK in any shape or form. You called me the unreasonable one, seriously?

I didnt deny about news reporting.

Today they were talking about the significance of politicians supporting Donald Trump not saying his name enough when they talked about him. Lol

I recieve news of armed citizens saving lives regularly because I subscribe to such.

You wont see that on general news unless the incident is particularly noteworthy.

Things are more complicated than some give credit for, BLM is not the KKK

But neither is the KKK In terms of every memeber what we think of when we think of the KKK.

But the BLM is by far run irrationally and discredits and tears apart a nation.

I am a constitutional person agaisnt many aspect of policing today. Instead of stand together for right vs wrong the BLM hijacked into anracial divisive movement based largely on mostly false narrative.

The BLM has attributed to calls for and inevitability of police assassination and calls for the random murder of whites not hesrd since the old race war days…

How can I stand and spout about constitutionalpoicing whenthey are being gunned down in assassination? I lost my voice because of those who seek to do evil and because of those who are not able to think rationally.

I lost my voice because people love the victim mentality and love to be group centric and think they are special.

I can not fight for you and your neighbor when you fight only for yourself.

Where we agree they stripped my influence

Where we disagree they have become evil.

It is sad.

 

[LethalMouse]

We reverse quoted??? Lol that’ll confuse a later reader lmao

 

[anon67074017]

Because we are citizens and as Christians we have an obligation towards the common good. We have an obligation to vote (see CCC)

Does the Church think that democracy should be only form of government?

 

[LethalMouse]

Does the Church think that democracy should be only form of government?

Nope.

I think the situation here is that it is what we are dealing with.

The church teaching is the form of gov is the means to an end.

So a dictatorship could be fine but would need be a mean to the end: the common good

Of course from a Church standpoint the common good means the common good that is of course recognized by the church.

If we had a dictator that the question of what to do morally would be his in theory.

Since we have a democracy, we are essentially a large group of mini kings all discussing how to be good kings.

Then there is much along the way

 

[Bookcat]

Does the Church think that democracy should be only form of government?

The Church no does not teach that democracy should be the only form of government.

The United States of America - one of the largest countries in the world is not a “democracy”.

(it is a democratic republic)

The Church does not protest this.

Many forms of Govt. are possible in service of the common good.

 

[anon67074017]

Would a Catholic have an obligation to vote in a nation like the Soviet Union? The only candidates on the ballot would be communists. The communists do not work for the common good in the Christian sense of the term. They work for a secular materialist government that completely rejects Christianity.

 

[Bookcat]

Would a Catholic have an obligation to vote in a nation like the Soviet Union? The only candidates on the ballot would be communists. The communists do not work for the common good in the Christian sense of the term. They work for a secular materialist government that completely rejects Christianity.

I would image that they would. Choosing the best person that can work for some good.

And as St. Sir. Thomas More said - what you cannot turn to good you make as little bad as one can.

 

[bilop]

Would a Catholic have an obligation to vote in a nation like the Soviet Union? The only candidates on the ballot would be communists. The communists do not work for the common good in the Christian sense of the term. They work for a secular materialist government that completely rejects Christianity.

I would say no. The elections there were a mere farce to give legitimacy to a fundamnetally evil regime. Not voting, or submitting a blank ballot would be a legitimate act of protest vs. said evil regime.

God Bless

 

[anon67074017]

I would image that they would. Choosing the best person that can work for some good.

And as St. Sir. Thomas More said - what you cannot turn to good you make as little bad as one can.

What if the Soviet government was fundamentally opposed to God and the common good?

 

[Bookcat]

What if the Soviet government was fundamentally opposed to God and the common good?

So what one just sits in a corner?

No.

So one is not better than the other? Not going to do any good…pure evil to the bone?

That seems unlikely. Though if that were the case then I do not know that one would vote for anyone. But ordinarily there can be good to be done. At least some voting for some offices can be done (I am not of the opinion that one must vote necessarily for each office)

One does the good that one can and within ones power.

…and as St. Sir. Thomas More said - what you cannot turn to good you make as little bad as one can.

 

[anon67074017]

So what one just sits in a corner?

No.

So one is not better than the other? Not going to do any good…pure evil to the bone?

That seems unlikely. Though if that were the case then I do not know that one would vote for anyone. But ordinarily there can be good to be done. At least some voting for some offices can be done (I am not of the opinion that one must vote necessarily for each office)

One does the good that one can and within ones power.

…and as St. Sir. Thomas More said - what you cannot turn to good you make as little bad as one can.

I think it would be justified to work to overthrow the Soviet regime. That is better than just sitting in a corner and it works towards the common good. Communism is Satanic. One communist candidate is generally not better than the other if there is even more than one candidate on the ballot.

 

[Bookcat]

One communist candidate is generally not better than the other if there is even more than one candidate on the ballot.

Says who.

They still will be making decisions that effect your life if your there and your families and that of the common good. You have before you choice one that has some good things in mind for people - increasing say food for children and you have choice two who want thinks the children have too much comfort and wants to take away some of what they have.

Persons living under such situations - they do the good they can and the work for the good they can and against the evil they can. These are just ordinary people we are talking about.

And as St. Sir. Thomas More said - *what you cannot turn to good you make as little bad as one can.

Anyhow no need for us to keep going at this side question.
*

 

[b_ulmen]