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Spirithound
Guest
I think Divine Foreknowledge and Providence must occur simultaneously. If God is Eternal, then all of His attributes must be eternal, none preceding the other.
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Mickey
Guest
Calvin settled nothing accept the further twisting of the interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures.
We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be… For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for. (110-165AD St. Justin Martyr First Apology chap. 43)
po18guy
Well-known member
All I did was simply to quote Christ. He is my source. He believes in one church, as do I. Reject His church if one must, but to reject His very words? How can someone misinterpret those? Clearly, more prayer is in order here for our brother’s heart. Amen.
po18guy
Well-known member
Not at all. For we know from scripture (John) that many antichrists have gone out into this world. We know, also from scripture that false prophets have appeared to lead even the elect astray. The Holy Spirit leads only to unity. The demon can only scatter. It either comes from the Lord or from the evil one. There is no other source that I know of. I say this out of charity, to cause our separated brethren to ponder Christian unity in their hearts.Man – I don’t agree with OSAS, but neither would I say “it’s from the demon”? A bit extreme don’t you think …
Our brother’s heart is hardened against the Catholic church. I do not condemn his church, I only proclaim that there is much more to Christ than can be experienced there. His church has truth in it. I tell him that the fulness of truth was and remains in the Catholic church. I would be insane if I did not believe this with all my heart. Especially after the manner in which our gracious Lord has revealed it to me. I call him to the fulness of Christ in a deeper relationship - one that can scarcely be fathomed when outside of the one true church.
I do not condemn. I call.
May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ remain with you for ever.
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SIA
Guest
I always welcome this. Thank you.
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sola_scriptura
Guest
These are the same sorts of things very militant protestants would say about the RCC. It’s simply unproductive – which is why I cringe when I hear such statements?
As I said I do believe OSAS is a misguided doctrine (from what I know about it). However, I’m not sure how they define the word “saved”?
Obviously whatever one’s view is regarding the mechanics of election, we can all at least say that those who were predestined by God cannot fail (to say differently either implies God is not absolutely omnipotent, not absolutely omniscient, or both). What OSAS believers do (I assume) is say they have a method by which they know who the elect are.
They fail to consider that a level of faith can be had, a person can profess Christ, and even have a deposit of the Spirit within them – and still not have been predestined by God (and thus they can fail).
This is not to diminish the confidence that we are to have in our salvation – it’s just to ensure we base that confidence on the right things. For example, if one does not have a change of heart, if they do not cry out in angst when they sin, if they do not bemoan their flesh weaknesses and desire to obey God even in private then a mere confession of faith does not automatically mean they are one of the elect. I think OSAS is readily debunked by the preponderance of scripture, but I also think perseverance is equally supported by it.
However, you might also disagree with perseverance; and hence you might say Calvin was under some sort of demonic influence. The slippery slope of this logic can really not lead in any other direction.
Then that will compel a reaction from protestants that is equally demeaning. This is the concept of love. God knows the physical law that every action causes a reaction. An action in love causes a reaction in love; and obviously the inverse is true. So, who knows maybe God decreed these differences to train us in love?
This is not to say we cannot reproof fellow Christians, to the contrary we must. However, we also “must” do so in love. That being said I’m not perfect either – however, in this way we can help make each other a little more perfect. When we continually point out the faults of each other in a “loving” way then we move closer to Christ. Sorry to ramble, but I do think this is important – I see quite a bit of mud slinging around these web boards (not just this one – but all of them) and that tells me we’re abusing this valuable resource God has given us.
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sola_scriptura
Guest
Overall I do not object to your view here. However, the idea that all aspects of grace are given to all people is IMO fallacious.
An alternative view is God’s foreknowledge and decree are one in the same. If God decreed everything that will come to pass – then foreknowledge is really just knowledge. Obviously we cannot know how God’s mind works. However, this is less important than knowing how God chooses, how He gives grace, hardens hearts, makes us walk in His commandments, forms us in the womb, knew us before we were born, etc.
*I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. (Ezekiel 36:26-27).
“This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people (Jeremiah 31:33).*
God “causes” us to obey – not our own free will. God “puts” His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts.
Moreover, the wicked were not just created permissively but affirmatively:
*What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory (Romans 9:22-23).
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16:4). *
God forms the elect as a potter forms his clay:
*One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? (Romans 9:19-21).
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5). *
Everything is preordained by God:
*Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them (Psalm 139:16).
"Since his days are determined,
The number of his months is with You;
And his limits You have set so that he cannot pass (Job 14:5).
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will (Ephesians 1:4-5).
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you [a]from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48).
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go (Exodus 10:20).*
I think these verses are rather clear?
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distracted
Guest
what are you talking about? Predestination is so anti-Catholic its ridiculous…
God gave us free will… He chose not to know absolutely everything when he gave that to us… It is up to us entirely to choose this or choose that… i know this truth not so much from book knowledge but form my own eperience… in life.
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sola_scriptura
Guest
I’ve already shown the merits of this doctrine from the Scriptures (link here). I would ask that you consider the position of perhaps the greatest church father – St. Augustine, who fought off the heresy of Pelagius so masterfully:
*Man, therefore, unwilling to resist such clear testimonies as these, and yet desiring himself to have the merit of believing, compounds as it were with God to claim a portion of faith for himself, and to leave a portion for Him; and, what is still more arrogant, he takes the first portion for himself and gives the subsequent to Him; and so in that which he says belongs to both, he makes himself the first, and God the second!
Code:
-Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints 6
Code:
-Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints 11
Code:
-Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints 13
Code:
-Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints 15
Code:
-Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints 16*How can you know such a thing from your personal experiences?
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Mickey
Guest
You may think you have. But in reality, you have not.
po18guy
Well-known member
But, it is their recent, divergent beliefs that err here, not those of the Catholic church, which is unchanging. The user we speak of appears to be bitter, and such bitterness does not, in the long run, serve the believer well in a faith based on love of God and of brother. You and I both noted that.
Some recent faith traditions teach that you need not be baptized. 100% anti-Christ and anti-scripture. I fight such heresy. Their souls are at stake!
Where is this guaranteed in scripture? James said “I will show you my faith by what I do” Salvation is not about works, but cannot be separated from it. It’s like breathing. You must inhale to live, but you must also exhale. Living, and one’s faith life, consists of both.
Exactly! How can one be so arrogant as to “now” or assume one’s salvation? Such knowledge can lead to arrogance. And does.
We’re on the same page. Paul says we must “work out our salvation”. Christ says “He who perseveres to the end will be saved” I cannot fathom how the OSAS get around this.
Perseverance in the faith? Yes, I believe in t hat. The Catholic church has always taught that. John Calvin was a false prophet, splitting off even from Luther, and teaching as doctrine his own concept that is not scriptural (or based on mis-interpretation).
I call all brothers, especially you, to unity in love of Christ. Is this not correct? The Apostles all did exactly the same in the early days when many divergent beliefs arose. There is unity only in love, and love in unity.
This is not to say we cannot reproof fellow Christians, to the contrary we must. However, we also “must” do so in love. That being said I’m not perfect either – however, in this way we can help make each other a little more perfect. When we continually point out the faults of each other in a “loving” way then we move closer to Christ. Sorry to ramble, but I do think this is important – I see quite a bit of mud slinging around these web boards (not just this one – but all of them) and that tells me we’re abusing this valuable resource God has given us.Well, in “sola scriptura” format, which forums are, the words are easily misinterpreted. There is no voice behind them, no emotion, no tonal inflection of the spoken word. That is why church teaching was oral, so that nothiong was lost in translation.
I cannot compromise on the truth, as revealed to Christ’s church, and taught, uninterrupted, for 1,975 years. I must put it as charitably as I can, but nothing will suffice with a brother who thinks my church is of satan and leading a billion souls to hell. How do you delicately deal with such an aberrant belief? The truth in love is my only weapon. It is a gross disservice to the truth to temper its meaning. I try to put it forward with the invitation of love, but our brother has a record of bitterness toward the Catholic church. That’s why I pray for him. You, I and he all need prayer. I consider myself the worst of all before God. And, so I pray.
Christ’s peace.
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sola_scriptura
Guest
John Calvin did not create the OSAS doctrine? Where did you get this idea from? Calvin was almost in lock step with St. Augustine on the questions of predestination and grace.
po18guy
Well-known member
Calvin was the main proponent of predestination. I don’t bother much with Augustine’s opinion on predestination. It was his opinion. More important is that Augustine was obedient. Calvin was disobedient.
Christ’s peace.
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Mickey
Guest
Yes.
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TriuneUnity
Guest
That may be the case that it was the opinion of Augustine. We must not, though, casually throw it off as several provincial councils affirmed his theology.
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distracted
Guest
no its not extreme… it puts people on the road to Hell… Demons, i have heard, love to do that…Man – I don’t agree with OSAS, but neither would I say “it’s from the demon”? A bit extreme don’t you think …
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distracted
Guest
you would have to know my whole life story to know why it (my life story) proves, beyond doubt, that this is not true… this predestination, this idea that God controls us… Because in saying that he “Knows what we are going to do before we do it” that is exactly waht you are saying: that he controls us…
I wouldn’t mind sharing some of my life story but for one thing… it is too “long”… and for another…
You would just argue about the whole thing…
You would say you know it better than i do… Just as you seem to claim to know the Catholic religion better than practicing Catholics do…
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distracted
Guest
like i said, St. Augustine or any saint would not be a canonized saint if he believed and taught publicly something contrary to Catholic teaching. I have not read Augustine’s entire book City of God or any other writings in their entirety and i am not going to take some quotations of his, out of the whole context… Many Protestants do that… They take the writings of the Fathers of the church… and take out what they want, leaving all the (stricly) Catholic-sounding stuff…
anyway… as to the last question…
You can prove it in your own life… Every day, you face choices: Do i go to work or do i call in sick? do i try to get along with my wife (husband) or do i say to heck with that, I’m in the right (about whatever…)… Do i take out the trash or wait until tomorrow??
It is all aobut CHOICE… You exercised your free will when you chose to come to these forums… You exercise your free will when you choose to remain Protestnat… you exercise your free will when you decide what to believe & what not to believe… (etc)
Life is full of choices…(opportunities to exercise your free will) and As that famous rock song says
“If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice…”
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