More big problems for Church

[laylow]

It’s not “studies”, quote-end quote.

It’s genuine psychological research, so I can’t understand the reason for quotes.

A lot of research has been conducted by institutions other than the RCC, in case you weren’t aware of that. The whole situation has sparked interest by the greater community.

Denying the impact of the things I stated is dishonest and frankly hurts the credibility of your arguement.

Thank you for making my point. Celibacy has nothing to do with the phenomenon in the least. The RCC - or any other church - has not created child molesters. They were molesters before they arrived in the priesthood.

Yes, and the priesthood, which requires celibacy, provides a safe place to hide and access to potential victims, in a place which obviously has no problem covering up these sick actions.

 

[Pup7]

Exactly.

Not one soul here is defending the action - either the abuse or the ensuing cover-up. Not ONE SOUL. But I’ll defend the Catholic faith until they lower the lid over my head.

This isn’t the fault of my faith.

 

[CelticWarlord]

But for someone who already likes little boys, it is easier to hide being a priest

Where I live, the public schools are actually much worse. Last year over 100 incidents of sexual abuse were reported in the school systems in western Canada, according to the local newspaper. Church related incidents, and that’s all churches, were only a handful. One is too many, but we can’t assume that our kids are safe if they stay away from priests.

 

[Pup7]

Denying the impact of the things of the things I stated is dishonest and frankly hurts the credibility of your arguement.

You have not only missed the boat, you’ve stepped off the pier.

What I said was it’s legitimate research - you’re the one posting the cutesy quotes. Quit twisting what I say and discuss this stuff logically and rationally.

I’m not being dishonest in the least. You’re attacking me and twisting my words, but I’m not being dishonest NOR am I denying anyone’s impact. Your quotes were uncalled for. Go do some research.

 

[laylow]

You have not only missed the boat, you’ve stepped off the pier.

What I said was it’s legitimate research - you’re the one posting the cutesy quotes. Quit twisting what I say and discuss this stuff logically and rationally.

No, it’s what you didn’t say, which is more glaring.

 

[Pup7]

No, it’s what you didn’t say, which is more glaring.

Oh, please, tell me what I’m thinking. I’m intrigued.

 

[laylow]

Where I live, the public schools are actually much worse. Last year over 100 incidents of sexual abuse were reported in the school systems in western Canada, according to the local newspaper. Church related incidents, and that’s all churches, were only a handful. One is too many, but we can’t assume that our kids are safe if they stay away from priests.

Maybe the public is actually reporting theirs? Hard to just look at one end of statistics. It could be true, I would need to see better data. I would also not be so naive to think it is only a problem in churches, but I think it’s hard to deny that they provide the perfect breeding ground.

 

[wkj_123]

The Church is absolutely in no way any different

Fine. If you want I will agree with you. The church is no different than any other institution on Earth. It’s a bunch of humans, running a totally human organization. If that’s the fall back then the Church should stick to it. The Church should never claim to speak for God. The Church should never claim to be able to infallibly define things relating to God. If the bishops are simply men like any other man in any other institution then they have absolutely no more credibility than the head of a grocery store chain in speaking for God. But if you want to claim the Church is important. That the church is led by the Holy Spirit. That the bishops are successors to the apostles. That the Magisterium can infallibly define God’s word, then please hold the church to a higher standard than other organizations. Demand justice and change. Don’t say

I don’t blame the Church. I blame the system.

Not blaming the church out of fear or respect or because it offends beliefs is why this kind of thing was made so possible.

 

[laylow]

No, it’s what you didn’t say, which is more glaring.

For one, you failed to address why a molester may be intrigued to become a priest, due to the celibacy requirement being a perfect hiding ground for odd behavior. It would be more difficult around peers to act that way and not be questioned by people. It would be discussed in bar talk by all co-workers.

 

[Pup7]

Not blaming the church out of fear or respect or because it offends beliefs is why this kind of thing was made so possible.

Do you realize that when I say I don’t blame the Church I mean the Church as a whole?

Do you condemn every single person who worked at Enron for the actions of the few that ruined it? Many of those people worked normal, everyday jobs. They weren’t profiting from the corruption at the top. Do you blame every Chinese person for the human rights infractions of their leaders?

Do you think every Muslim is a fundamentalist, potential suicide bomber who wants to kill all Westerners?

Lighten up and knock off the attacking. I personally don’t care if you agree with me or not.

 

[Pup7]

For one, you failed to address why a molester may be intrigued to become a priest, due to the celibacy requirement being a perfect hiding ground for odd behavior. It would be more difficult around peers to act that way and not be questioned by people. It would be discussed in bar talk by all co-workers.

I truly wasn’t aware that’s what we were discussing. I’m not a shrink, and I presume you aren’t either, so to assume I’m disregarding your opinions is just ridiculous.

As I said, please tell me what I’m thinking. You sort of dodged that question. My failure to formulate an answer to a question you yourself never actually stated has nothing to do with that.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Why is this in Apologetics?

 

[laylow]

I truly wasn’t aware that’s what we were discussing. I’m not a shrink, and I presume you aren’t either, so to assume I’m disregarding your opinions is just ridiculous.

As I said, please tell me what I’m thinking. You sort of dodged that question. My failure to formulate an answer to a question you yourself never actually stated has nothing to do with that.

Actually, I stated it numerous times. And that’s what I meant when I said it’s what you didn’t say, because you ignored that part of the comments. And of course with this response, you have chose to deflect away from it again, which is fine. The comment still stands and is still legitimate until refuted.

 

[Pup7]

But if you want to claim the Church is important. That the church is led by the Holy Spirit. That the bishops are successors to the apostles. That the Magisterium can infallibly define God’s word, then please hold the church to a higher standard than other organizations. Demand justice and change. Don’t say

I’m more than offended by your implications there, passed onto a complete stranger.

I get to say I DON’T BLAME THE CHURCH. Because the Church is more than the people who did this and who covered it up. I don’t blame ANY CHURCH for ANY sort of scandal because a church is more than the leaders and the hierarchy.

She’s also comprised of normal people who DON’T do this sort of thing.

For you to say I don’t advocate for change is unfair.

 

[wkj_123]

Do you realize that when I say I don’t blame the Church I mean the Church as a whole?

Do you condemn every single person who worked at Enron for the actions of the few that ruined it? Many of those people worked normal, everyday jobs. They weren’t profiting from the corruption at the top. Do you blame every Chinese person for the human rights infractions of their leaders?

Do you think every Muslim is a fundamentalist, potential suicide bomber who wants to kill all Westerners?

Lighten up and knock off the attacking. I personally don’t care if you agree with me or not.

I haven’t attacked you once. I’m sure your an honest decent person. I have attacked an institution dear to you that has been complicit in these crimes. Many of these people who are victims of these crimes submitted to an institution led by God and we’re abused by people they believed speaking for God. You have people as high as the Vicar of Christ appointing people to positions who were known to have committed these crimes. At some point you have to say ok something here is broken let’s fix it.

 

[Pup7]

Actually, I stated it numerous times. And that’s what I meant when I said it’s what you didn’t say, because you ignored that part of the comments. And of course with this response, you have chose to deflect away from it again, which is fine. The comment still stands and is still legitimate until refuted.

Actually, I joined this thread at random and didn’t read the entire thing.

Relax. You might be shocked to find I don’t disagree with that particular assertion.

The comment is still garbage in my opinion, because you attacked me for something never directed at me. As I said, tell me what I’m thinking. You seem to have me all figured out, when what you’ve actually done is stick me in a box that you believe I fit in.

That’s no better than what you’ve accused me of.

 

[Pup7]

I have attacked an institution dear to you that has been complicit in these crimes.

Yes, and why you can’t get that I agree with that eludes me. It is STILL not the fault of every Catholic in the pew. We are also the Church.

At some point you have to say ok something here is broken let’s fix it.

How do you know I haven’t? Based on one or two “questions” that you believe I haven’t answered to your liking? Gee, that seems fair.

I wasn’t aware that to participate in a thread one was required to submit a treatise outlining their every thought on the subject.

 

[wkj_123]

I’m more than offended by your implications there, passed onto a complete stranger.

I get to say I DON’T BLAME THE CHURCH. Because the Church is more than the people who did this and who covered it up. I don’t blame ANY CHURCH for ANY sort of scandal because a church is more than the leaders and the hierarchy.

She’s also comprised of normal people who DON’T do this sort of thing.

For you to say I don’t advocate for change is unfai

Again I’m not blaming the people in the pews. I’m simply pointing out that the Church makes a lot of extrodinary claims about what it is. People throughout history have been terrified to criticize misconduct by church officials because they believe they speak for God. You are proving my point by how offended you get by attacks on the institution. When people are afraid to criticize then it literally breeds this protective enviormemt for abuse.

 

[laylow]

Actually, I joined this thread at random and didn’t read the entire thing.

Relax. You might be shocked to find I don’t disagree with that particular assertion.

The comment is still garbage in my opinion, because you attacked me for something never directed at me. As I said, tell me what I’m thinking. You seem to have me all figured out, when what you’ve actually done is stick me in a box that you believe I fit in.

That’s no better than what you’ve accused me of.

Fair enough. I do feel you are quite sensitive and overly defensive, but this is sort of a self-acknowledged character flaw of mine, if you will. My personality is very straight-forward and not tailored well to emotion.

But it seemed as though you ignored one of my central statements while vehemently defending the Church as faultless. Well, if the system appears to be set up in a way that is conducive to attracting certain types of individuals, it needs to be investigated and condemned if necessary.

I do feel that loyalty could be clouding judgement a bit. I feel that if this was a different organization (besides the church) with these rules, the people of the church would be looking into the reasons with more intent to change if necessary.

 

[Pup7]

Pup7:

I’m more than offended by your implications there, passed onto a complete stranger.

I get to say I DON’T BLAME THE CHURCH. Because the Church is more than the people who did this and who covered it up. I don’t blame ANY CHURCH for ANY sort of scandal because a church is more than the leaders and the hierarchy.

She’s also comprised of normal people who DON’T do this sort of thing.

For you to say I don’t advocate for change is unfai

Again I’m not blaming the people in the pews. I’m simply pointing out that the Church makes a lot of extrodinary claims about what it is. People throughout history have been terrified to criticize misconduct by church officials because they believe they speak for God. You are proving my point by how offended you get by attacks on the institution. When people are afraid to criticize then it literally breeds this protective enviormemt for abuse.

Chuckling because you’re assuming a few things about me that simply aren’t true.

You’re right - I’m offended by your attacks. The ones directed at me. The ones claiming that because I sit in the pew I don’t advocate for change. That I say nothing. That the entire Church is to blame. You’re only clarifying as I point out what you’ve said.

As a Catholic the constant fingerpointing gets old. It got old before I was Catholic. You and others like you seem to think we don’t get it - that we’re blind to the problem. We aren’t blind to the problem. As an outsider you probably don’t see what has been done to combat it.

You’re also not acknowledging that none of the accusations/reports are recent. Why do you think that is? Likely because the RCC took steps to ensure that it cannot happen again. (And please don’t say I’m brushing aside the seriousness of it, because I’m not.)

The complacency has been disgraceful. But it wasn’t from the greater part of the Church - which is us, the people in the pews. It is a system problem, as it always is. It’s like the sexual assault in the military: the system safeguarded the offender and put the victim on the block. We overhauled the system, and now it’s changing because laws have changed and the system has changed. It’s not perfect, but it’s on its way to being far better than it was.

Like my leaders in the Pentagon, we knew the problem. But we were, at the time, powerless to stop it. We now have the tools by which to stop it and by which to help the victims in my Air Force. But accusations and abuses of power continue here as well, though we work to change.

I cannot change the past. I cannot right that wrong for the victims who suffered as a result of the actions of the RCC. All I can do is try to be part of the solution going forward.

Do I think the RCC needs some swampland drained? Yes, I actually do. And I think that’s coming.