More big problems for Church

[Gorgias]

You might ask Bill Donohue of the Catholic League who has a different take on it.

Not really sure how that makes any sense. Donohue notoriously believes that the abuse scandal is about homosexuals, not pedophiles. If that’s truly the case (and I’m not saying that it is!), then how will opening the priesthood to married men keep homosexual priests from molesting minors? Or, is he suggesting that opening the priesthood to married men will so open the floodgates on vocations that seminaries will be too full for single men to discern?

Doesn’t make sense.

 

[AlNg]

Not really sure how that makes any sense.

It makes sense because I thought he said that he has the credentials to be an expert professional in this area. Are you also an expert professional in these kinds of issues as he is?

 

[wkj_123]

Well at any rate my apologies if you feel I attacked you personally that wasn’t my intention.

 

[Gorgias]

I’m not arguing that celibacy is the whole problem, far from it. But for someone who already likes little boys, it is easier to hide being a priest and then get relatively easy access to your fantasies.

Hang on a second.

If your case is that “pedophiles find environments in which they will have opportunities to abuse”, then that means it’s not a question of celibacy at all. Rather, according to your reasoning, existing pedophiles choose environments in which they will have access to victims. Celibacy isn’t a cause, then, but rather, simply a context. You’d be as well served to claim that the wearing of black suits is a cause of abuse.

the priesthood, which requires celibacy, provides a safe place to hide and access to potential victims

Right. The priesthood also requires the wearing of black suits. And the attainment of advanced degrees in theology. Yet, you’d never assert that graduate studies cause abuse, would you?

 

[Gorgias]

If the bishops are simply men like any other man in any other institution then they have absolutely no more credibility than the head of a grocery store chain in speaking for God.

Except for the fact that Jesus Himself granted that proxy of authority to the Church and its leadership.

One thing that this proxy didn’t promise was impeccability of its members or leaders. The fact that every human is a sinner does not negate Jesus’ creation of the Church, nor its role in the world.

 

[AlNg]

One way to see whether or not there is a correlation between celibacy and sex with boys or men is to compare the prevalence of this in a celibate clergy with that of a married clergy.

 

[Gorgias]

People throughout history have been terrified to criticize misconduct by church officials because they believe they speak for God.

Nah. I think it’s more a matter, historically, about ‘power politics’. You see this dynamic in any human environment in which there’s a great disparity in power – people without power are loathe to criticize those in power. Note, as well, that I’m not talking about “the power of God”, but rather, “the power inherent in being a leader of a large organization.” That’s why I think your claim here is overreaching.

 

[Pup7]

If your case is that “pedophiles find environments in which they will have opportunities to abuse”, then that means it’s not a question of celibacy at all .

Yep. Called him out for that in post 59 myself. Snipped:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Nah. I think it’s more a matter, historically, about ‘power politics’. You see this dynamic in any human environment in which there’s a great disparity in power – people without power are loathe to criticize those in power. Note, as well, that I’m not talking about “the power of God”, but rather, “the power inherent in being a leader of a large organization.”

This is why I see so many parallels in the Air Force. It’s not that people were terrified. It’s because you could say something and try to do something, but your lone action is lost in a sea of about 400,000 others and is very easily squashed, and usually at your detriment. Pretty hard for Airmen to buck a system run by Colonels until the Colonels themselves start to change.

@laylow - can I also recommend another book? “Keep The Faith, Change the Church”, written by James Muller and Charles Kenney. It’s about the Voice of the Faithful, a group started by the laity in Boston in the wake of the “Spotlight” series, at the very beginning. It illustrates Gorgias’ point many, many times.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Well, the closed-minded approach hasn’t seemed to be working to well. When something doesn’t work, considerations need to be made.

The only problem I’m seeing with it is in your head when you call it “closed-minded”.

I could just as easily say it’s “closed-minded” to not ordain some celibate women priests.

Impossible to discuss with somebody whose mind is already made up that they’re right.

Bye now.

 

[Gorgias]

It makes sense because I thought he said that he has the credentials to be an expert professional in this area.

Donohue is a sociologist. How does that make him an expert in the medical field of psychiatry?

Are you also an expert professional in these kinds of issues as he is?

Yep. My undergraduate and graduate degrees make me just as expert as he is.

 

[Gorgias]

One way to see whether or not there is a correlation between celibacy and sex with boys or men is to compare the prevalence of this in a celibate clergy with that of a married clergy.

Yes. It would be helpful for you to read up on the myths being asserted.

 

[wkj_123]

Except for the fact that Jesus Himself granted that proxy of authority to the Church and its leadership.

One thing that this proxy didn’t promise was impeccability of its members or leaders. The fact that every human is a sinner does not negate Jesus’ creation of the Church, nor its role in the world.

Yeah you can say that but what real world effect has it had? I mean Jesus obviously isn’t supernaturally protecting the highest leaders from doing bad things that leaders in every other institution does. The Muslim religion will soon overtake Christianity in numbers, so having Jesus doesn’t guarantee you the largest following. What real world evidence is there? I mean I can say God promised me that I’m king of France, but at the end of the day I still don’t have a crown, and the Church is behaving just like any other run of the mill human organization.

 

[Gorgias]

I mean Jesus obviously isn’t supernaturally protecting the highest leaders from doing bad things that leaders in every other institution does.

Agreed. Jesus never promised that kind of protection of individuals.

The Muslim religion will soon overtake Christianity in numbers, so having Jesus doesn’t guarantee you the largest following.

Agreed. Jesus never made the promise of “being the largest religion in the world.”

You keep setting up these straw men. Not only do they not follow from Jesus’ words, but also there is no one who asserts that the Church has these charisms. . So… why does your assertion that these features do not exist have any relevance? You might as well assert that, since priests don’t have wings, it proves that the Church isn’t what we claim it to be…

What real world evidence is there?

Historical documentary evidence. What evidence are you looking for, or would accept, from antiquity?

I mean I can say God promised me that I’m king of France

You could… but do you have any eyewitnesses? Do you have any events that back up that assertion?

the Church is behaving just like any other run of the mill human organization.

We might hope that our leaders, being exemplars of the things we hold dear, are “head and shoulders” above us in their conduct. Unfortunately, that rarely happens – in business, in government, in our families. Why should the Church be different?

 

[Joe_5859]

Why is this in Apologetics?

Good question. Maybe the OP wanted to start a discussion about how this particular news item will impact our ability to explain and defend Catholic teachings. The first post is just a link to a news article with no commentary, so it’s difficult to say.

 

[JanSobieskiIII]

Yeah, if priests could marry there’d be no more abuse cases. Just like teachers, coaches, parents, and other authority figures that are allowed to marry never have instances of abusing their position

 

[laylow]

Hang on a second.

If your case is that “pedophiles find environments in which they will have opportunities to abuse”, then that means it’s not a question of celibacy at all . Rather, according to your reasoning, existing pedophiles choose environments in which they will have access to victims. Celibacy isn’t a cause , then, but rather, simply a context. You’d be as well served to claim that the wearing of black suits is a cause of abuse.

LOL, your game never changes. Defect from the main discussion at hand to throw in some BS logic. If the church is looking into it, it must mean they have concerns…and I would say legitimate ones.

 

[laylow]

The only problem I’m seeing with it is in your head when you call it “closed-minded”.

I could just as easily say it’s “closed-minded” to not ordain some celibate women priests.

Impossible to discuss with somebody whose mind is already made up that they’re right.

Bye now.

As long as you don’t call it humility…

 

[Pup7]

LOL, your game never changes. Defect from the main discussion at hand to throw in some BS logic. If the church is looking into it, it must mean they have concerns…and I would say legitimate ones.

He’s the second person to point that out.

Funny how when someone brings up a point with you they’re deflecting (you said the same to me), but when you do it it’s rational discussion.

 

[laylow]

Funny how when someone brings up a point with you they’re deflecting (you said the same to me), but when you do it it’s rational discussion.

What point did I deflect?

 

[Pup7]

Pup7:

Funny how when someone brings up a point with you they’re deflecting (you said the same to me), but when you do it it’s rational discussion.

What point did I deflect?

Did you even read the post?

I didn’t say you did. Try again.