More children torn from arms of asylum seeking parents

[dvdjs]

What is the difference between what you describe here and what you objected to above?

What I object to is people claiming that and candidate of any party for POTUS has proposed to implement that in the US, however they may or may not see that as an inspirational goal. It is not true, and I think that people should speak truthfully.

 

[Ridgerunner]

She “advocated” . Same questions. When? Under what pre-condittions? If you assume Now and None. You are making stuff up.

You know better than that. If you have rationalized her clear statement to mean something other than the plain words she said, I understand. But otherwise, it’s obvious.

 

[Ridgerunner]

no longer a threat to society,

As I said before, I oppose the death penalty, but it’s just incorrect to say everybody in prison is no longer a threat to society. How about Aryan Nations that commits and orders killings inside prison and outside as well? And Aryan Nations is certainly not the only one.

In third world countries, prisons are often a joke.

 

[dvdjs]

You know better than that. If you have rationalized her clear statement to mean something other than the plain words

I do know better. It is your partisan rhetoric that twist the plain meaning into something that you think is helpful to your agenda.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

no longer a threat to society,

As I said before, I oppose the death penalty, but it’s just incorrect to say everybody in prison is no longer a threat to society. How about Aryan Nations that commits and orders killings inside prison and outside as well? And Aryan Nations is certainly not the only one.

In third world countries, prisons are often a joke.

I don’t think that has any bearing whatsoever on the death penalty. A person in maximum security for committing a violent crime should not have access to the general prison population. More likely, what you describe would happen among the other prisoners.

For your argument to have some merit, you would have to show that gang killings in prison are significantly less likely to happen in a state with the death penalty than they are in a state without the death penalty once you factor out other variables, such as the prevalence of gang activity overall. Even then, the relationship would only be correlational. You’d have to back up your causal claims with a whole lot of case studies.

However, having studied the crime vectors, less lethal measures could be found to prevent them from happening.

 

[Annie]

Fine example of splitting hairs. We’ve had lots of things implemented which were presented as goals during the elections, whether legislatively or by policy implementation.

I think it’s a good thing to be aware of what candidates are saying, and if they say something, they are responsible for it.

 

[dvdjs]

Fine example of splitting hairs. We’ve had lots of things implemented which were presented as goals during the elections, whether legislatively or by policy implementation.

On the contrary fine example of people trying to make mountains out of molehills.
There is plenty to discuss about candidates without exaggeration and distortion.

 

[Annie]

It is not exaggeration and distortion to say a policy advocates open borders when what they say they advocates meets the definition of open borders

 

[dvdjs]

It is not exaggeration and distortion to say a policy advocates open borders when what they say they advocates meets the definition of open borders

True. But it is incorrect when the policy that they advocate doen’t meet that definition. And it doesn’t. Not for the any major candidate and not, AFAIK, for any of posters here who are accused of it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

For your argument to have some merit, you would have to show that gang killings in prison are significantly less likely to happen in a state with the death penalty than they are in a state without the death penalty

Nonsense. What you would have to show is that there are maimings and murders in prisons. That is indisputably true. You are actually valuing the life of an innocent person at less than that of a guilty one.

 

[Annie]

I disagree with you on this, but perhaps I need to know what then is the position advocated and how do you think that different from open borders?

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

For your argument to have some merit, you would have to show that gang killings in prison are significantly less likely to happen in a state with the death penalty than they are in a state without the death penalty

Nonsense. What you would have to show is that there are maimings and murders in prisons. That is indisputably true. You are actually valuing the life of an innocent person at less than that of a guilty one.

Why? If the death penalty is not related to the level of violence in prisons, what relevance does it have to protecting prison populations? The mere presence of violence is not sufficient to justify killing someone. You need to demonstrate that the intervention (death penalty) is actually reducing the problem (violence in prisons).

Otherwise, you’re just engaging in magical thinking. It would be no different than claiming you can stop the rain by waving your hand over a crystal. What proof do you have that this is a valid intervention? Well its raining outside, isn’t it? We’ve got to do something.

To justify the execution of a particular person requires proof that this person in particular is a threat to society that cannot be contained within the walls of a prison. The only person I can think of who might actually fit that bill was Osama bin Laden, or perhaps Loki from the Marvel Universe.

To justify the concept of a death penalty as even an option for punishment, you need to demonstrate that the threat of being executed actually reduces the likelihood of a violent crime being committed. Turns out that the exact opposite is true…

Murder Rate of Death Penalty States Compared to Non-Death Penalty States | Death Penalty Information Center

The Death Penalty Information Center (DPI) is a national non-profit organization whose mission is to serve the media, policymakers, and the general public…

deathpenaltyinfo.org

One can speculate on why there is less violent crime in states that have abolished the death penalty. Perhaps they have a more affluent or better educated population, and better options for social mobility from lower to middle class and beyond. Maybe that gives people more reason to work within the system, rather than do drugs or engage with marginalized gangs outside the system.

Maybe its because living in a state whose policies reflect a culture of life that applies to everyone, regardless of who you are or how bad you’ve behaved, has a profound effect on people. When the standard is an life for a life, you lose more lives. But when the standard is respect for life, you save more lives.

 

[dvdjs]

I disagree with you on this, but perhaps I need to know what then is the position advocated and how do you think that different from open borders?

An open border is a border that enables free movement of people between different jurisdictions with few or no restrictions on movement, that is to say lacking substantive border control.

No candidate AFAIK proposed elimination of border control. Candidates did talk in various way to permannet legal status for people already here, in particular the DACA and TPD cohort, etc. And some expressed the dream open borders, were that to become feasible. But no one called for “free movement of people” into and out of the US “with few or no restrictions on movement, that is to say lacking substantive border control.”

 

[Theo520]

He doesn’t think allowing anyone in without a serious felony record equals ‘open borders’
He ignores what the ‘open borders’ advocates claim is their goal

 

[dvdjs]

He doesn’t think allowing anyone in without a serious felony record equals ‘open borders’

Did the full spectrum of distinctions elude you? Sad.

He ignores what the ‘open borders’ advocates claim is their goal

Would you please reproduce the claim of “goal” by the persons you call open borders advocate…

 

[Ridgerunner]

If the death penalty is not related to the level of violence in prisons, what relevance does it have to protecting prison populations?

Villain though he was, Bin Ladin at least had a cause. Lots of them have none except that they enjoy killing.

There are people in prisons who are killers and either admit they’ll kill again (Ted Bundy, for example) or are determined to be that way by the shrinks who examine them. (Charles Manson, for example)

The death penalty, in the case of someone who would otherwise go ahead and kill someone, absolutely does reduce the crime level.

Here’s a love letter from Bundy:

"I just liked to kill, I wanted to kill.”

“You learn what you need to kill and take care of the details…Its like changing a tire…The 1st time you’re careful…By the 30th time, you can’t remember where you left the lug wrench.”

“You feel the last bit of breath leaving their body. You’re looking into their eyes. A person in that situation is God!”

Now, if there were enough supermax prisons in every country to hold those kinds of people, that would be great. But there aren’t; not even in the U.S., or not yet. That’s why I believe JPII also intended that the prison system be reformed.

One thing is for sure about Bundy, though. He won’t kill again because he was executed.

 

[Luke6_37]

There are people in prisons who are killers and either admit they’ll kill again (Ted Bundy, for example) or are determined to be that way by the shrinks who examine them. (Charles Manson, for example)

One thing is for sure about Bundy, though. He won’t kill again because he was executed.

Charles Manson won’t kill again either. He served out his life sentence at California State Prison in Corcoran and died at age 83 in 2017.

He was more dangerous to society than Ted Bundy, because like Bin Laden, he had followers on the outside who worshiped him like some prophet of the Lord. One of them was Squeaky Fromme, who threatened Gerald Ford with an unloaded gun in 1975. She released on parole on August 14, 2009, after serving nearly 34 years of a life sentence for that, and all that time she never stopped being loyal to Manson.

It’s not the lone serial killer who continues to be a threat to society after being incarcerated. It is the cult or gang leader whose loyal followers won’t abandon him, even if he stood in the middle of 5th Avenue and shot somebody.

That’s something to think about.

 

[Annie]

You do realize that was a joke?

Anyway, I was surprised at what a search for the words prison guard killed brought up. Check it out.

 

[Annie]

Not to mention the fact that if CA had killed Manson, Squeaky Frome may not have gotten caught up in his cult.

 

[Cathoholic]

I doubt there is one conservative in 100,000 who really opposes immigration or asylum. There would, however, be plenty who would want to discourage illegal immigration.

Great call Ridgerunner.

I have never seen one.

Big difference between “immigrants” and illegal aliens.