More Christ Less Defence of Catholic Doctrine

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hamnegg66

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I am hearing too much about why the Catholic Church is the true Church and how we oppose abortion etc etc etc this is fantastic ! Amen.
But I have grown a bit and I want to hear more about the love of Christ. I want to hear more about Catholics reaching out with love and being confident and full of the joys of Christ.

Surely the joy of the Spirit and truth must be spread with the vigour that St Paul went about his work!!

We need to be more involved, more full of life and an example to many. Get involved with your Church (if your faith is not costing you anything it is dead!) - some parishes need to have at least one organless mass to attract the youth. Preach Apologetics before Alpha!
I think there is a huge gap. We are too defensive. We need to be offensive if our faith is alive.

I have more but I will just throw that out there…so long 🙂
 
I’m not sure the point of your post is all that clear since you are painting with a broad brush things which truly may only apply to you?

Welcome to CAF!
 
I am hearing too much about why the Catholic Church is the true Church and how we oppose abortion etc etc etc this is fantastic ! Amen.
But I have grown a bit and I want to hear more about the love of Christ. I want to hear more about Catholics reaching out with love and being confident and full of the joys of Christ.

Surely the joy of the Spirit and truth must be spread with the vigour that St Paul went about his work!!

We need to be more involved, more full of life and an example to many. Get involved with your Church (if your faith is not costing you anything it is dead!) - some parishes need to have at least one organless mass to attract the youth. Preach Apologetics before Alpha!
I think there is a huge gap. We are too defensive. We need to be offensive if our faith is alive.

I have more but I will just throw that out there…so long 🙂
Welcome to CAF!

On a website, it is very hard to share joy or show works that are the fruit of our faith. So, don’t assume people don’t engage in activities that do this. For example, many posters here are very involved in pro-life activities.

On a discussion board, you’re largely going to get discussion of doctrine, faith and morals. Especially since it is these doctrines on which other Christians disagree with the Church. To evangelize them, Catholics need to convince them of the truth of our doctrines.

God Bless
 
I understand what you are saying.

So did Catherine of Sienna.

Unfortunately my personal experience of christians is insincerity and betrayal time and again. But they don’t break the letter of the law. Being right is what matters it seems.

I can understand that too. Its human, I see it in myself.

My best friend left me because of what other people thought was appropriate. After taking and taking. She still sends a request for money every month.

She used to understand too. But now she is righteous and entitled, just like the evangelical protestants I work for…

I couldn’t drink the cup Jesus drank so i left the Church. At least I know it
 
Organless Mass to attract youth? Can you expound on this reasoning and what you want to replace the organ with??
 
Organless Mass to attract youth? Can you expound on this reasoning and what you want to replace the organ with??
Please do not misunderstand me.
I am looking for a certain degree of personal preference in the way of worship manner being adopted. Possibly I just am at a pretty traditional church that plays the organ even if it drowns out the afternoon service of 40 people.
What I have seen from non Catholic services is that the young are at church. What draws them? Part of a spiritual service is the upliftment of ones person. And music is the tool for that. It is a gift from God and something to use to get the youth excited about mass.
The Eucharist is central to mass. Let me say loudly - GET TO MASS - THE GRACES YOU RECEIVE ARE IMMENSE - THE EUCHARIST IS A GIFT YOU CANNOT MISS. PLEASE.

This is not a one size fits all situation. Adapt the periphary of the service to make it attractive to those that come to Church if required.

It is applicable i my parish and I will be doing something about it. If I fail I will take it as a message from the Lord:-) AMEN!
 
I understand what you are saying.

So did Catherine of Sienna.

Unfortunately my personal experience of christians is insincerity and betrayal time and again. But they don’t break the letter of the law. Being right is what matters it seems.

I can understand that too. Its human, I see it in myself.

My best friend left me because of what other people thought was appropriate. After taking and taking. She still sends a request for money every month.

She used to understand too. But now she is righteous and entitled, just like the evangelical protestants I work for…

I couldn’t drink the cup Jesus drank so i left the Church. At least I know it
If you are perfect then judge the Christians. Or any other person for that matter.
If you deem yourself (name removed by moderator)erfect then look to the perfect being - God(Jesus).
Do not take the example of a Christain to reflect the whole truth - look to Christ.
Now you got no excuse:-) God bless you
My personal experience of Christains is sturdy rocks in a wind swept sea.
There are 1 billion Catholics. If you find 1 Catholic that does not live his faith then dont think the other 1 billion do not live their faith as well.
 
Welcome to CAF!

On a website, it is very hard to share joy or show works that are the fruit of our faith. So, don’t assume people don’t engage in activities that do this. For example, many posters here are very involved in pro-life activities.

On a discussion board, you’re largely going to get discussion of doctrine, faith and morals. Especially since it is these doctrines on which other Christians disagree with the Church. To evangelize them, Catholics need to convince them of the truth of our doctrines.

God Bless
Are you saying that these forums are only for the discussion of doctrine, faith and morals? I find them immensly useful. Brillaint.
iI was trying to get a discussion going.
 
Please do not misunderstand me.
I am looking for a certain degree of personal preference in the way of worship manner being adopted. Possibly I just am at a pretty traditional church that plays the organ even if it drowns out the afternoon service of 40 people.
What I have seen from non Catholic services is that the young are at church. What draws them? Part of a spiritual service is the upliftment of ones person.
Worship is not a “personal preference.” It is a traditional means of worshipping God. It cannot be changed or tweaked or modified to satisfy people. The Church, through the centuries, decides what is most fitting. It began with what was handed down from the beginning from Christ and the Apostle. It then grew organically over the centuries to what we have now. The liturgy is traditional and does not belong to any one generation. It transcends generation and personal preference. It is not something to be made to fit man but rather made fitting for God.

Pax Christi tecum.
 
I am hearing too much about why the Catholic Church is the true Church and how we oppose abortion etc etc etc this is fantastic ! Amen.
But I have grown a bit and I want to hear more about the love of Christ. I want to hear more about Catholics reaching out with love and being confident and full of the joys of Christ.

Surely the joy of the Spirit and truth must be spread with the vigour that St Paul went about his work!!

We need to be more involved, more full of life and an example to many. Get involved with your Church (if your faith is not costing you anything it is dead!) - some parishes need to have at least one organless mass to attract the youth. Preach Apologetics before Alpha!
I think there is a huge gap. We are too defensive. We need to be offensive if our faith is alive.

I have more but I will just throw that out there…so long 🙂
You see a lot of defensiveness on these forums, because many Fundamentalists and Evangelicals come blazing in here telling us we are all hell-bound. Once the Gauntlet is thrown, we cannot abstain from the contest, The spark comes from an external source and we react. However, there are many lurkers for each poster, and they read our defenses. So, we do our level best to dismantle their 100 year old faith and try to show that the ancient Church, founded by the Ancient One through His Son, is the true path.

However, there is always room for more positive interaction. Lately, due to having a potentially fatal illness, I have been asking others to pray for me, including one co-worker who does not believe in God. I told her that it did not matter if she believed in Him or not - that He would still hear her prayers. So, she asked her nieces how to pray and has begun. This has shown the blessing of my affliction, that through it, many are being called to a deeper prayer life, and some to a prayer life at all.

Christ’s peace.
 
**>Once the Gauntlet is thrown, we cannot abstain…<

Can’t we? Do we have to pick it up and throw back? Might be we lack composure. Precondition of course is, that not just some indifferent questions are “thrown in” into our will to witness.
Though, as long as we insist of right and wrong and think we are the only ones who know the one and only truth, love can’t rise; love, that’s the one and only legitimate way to be a Christian.
Offensive speech hardly wins friends. Convicted and convincing evidence all the more. Let’s be living evidence of Christ.

Today a priest who came by, was outraged at an article in our Cath. Paper, where we red: “When we die, we turn into light”. Light? Ha! What about soul an what about Jesus word that we will be like the Angels in Matth 22:30…
Eventually he calmed down and said:
Let’s tell them what Jesus said, instead of throwing the Gauntlet which destroys so much more than it builds up.

Let’s remember that Jesus Himself went for dinner with nonbelievers. So many said like in Luke 5:29 “Why do you eat and drink with those sinners?"
Jesus answered: "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick”. Sick people often are quite hostile.

So, when God Himself cares about those who’s believe is weak, how dare we not to, or fight instead of caring.

Fact is: Jesus Church is the original Church, as Jesus founded but one church (on St. Peter); later called Catholic. (The 10 Catholic Letters).

Abortion (to mention the second theme of the thread-opener) must be theme of our church, for it’s destroying Gods will to let this new person live. It’s two very hug and very different themes, both though consist of love.
hamnegg66 sais: “I have more but I will just throw that out there”). But the bible is full of “more” and the Vatican full of the worlds problems. The world though, doesn’t realise how many of them already had been solved by the Church and her everlasting prayers… e.g. in monasteries.

To just throw vague notes, is not too helpful. Rather fritters the theme “Catholic Answers” when we speak to people who are interested, but rather declining Catholizism and even Christianism as a whole. LESS DEFENCE OF CATHOLIC DOCTRINE would be the wrong way. Doctrines must really be explained instead of defended, for they are groundwork for all humans – not just for Catholics. **
 
Worship is not a “personal preference.” It is a traditional means of worshipping God. It cannot be changed or tweaked or modified to satisfy people. The Church, through the centuries, decides what is most fitting. It began with what was handed down from the beginning from Christ and the Apostle. It then grew organically over the centuries to what we have now. The liturgy is traditional and does not belong to any one generation. It transcends generation and personal preference. It is not something to be made to fit man but rather made fitting for God.

Pax Christi tecum.
Look here ‘Pax Christu tecum’ - the organ did not get passed down from the apostles OK? Understand before you get all uptight about tradition - capito. I am talking about having different music and perhaps a bit more engagement of the people in the pews. I am not talking about changing the liturgy !!! Dont get me going here !:mad:

Maak my sommer mal - verskoening Here
 
You see a lot of defensiveness on these forums, because many Fundamentalists and Evangelicals come blazing in here telling us we are all hell-bound. Once the Gauntlet is thrown, we cannot abstain from the contest, The spark comes from an external source and we react. However, there are many lurkers for each poster, and they read our defenses. So, we do our level best to dismantle their 100 year old faith and try to show that the ancient Church, founded by the Ancient One through His Son, is the true path.

However, there is always room for more positive interaction. Lately, due to having a potentially fatal illness, I have been asking others to pray for me, including one co-worker who does not believe in God. I told her that it did not matter if she believed in Him or not - that He would still hear her prayers. So, she asked her nieces how to pray and has begun. This has shown the blessing of my affliction, that through it, many are being called to a deeper prayer life, and some to a prayer life at all.

Christ’s peace.
Bless you - you are in my prayers.
I hear what you are saying about defensive behaviour and can fully comprehend it. I think Catholicism is the most misunderstood and ‘attacked’ churches around. For Christians to attack each other is unforgivable. I tolerate and attend non Catholic services. I know these people are honestly seeking God. But nothing can take from my faith. I have received many an unsaid complimentary gesture when instead of bashing them with a bible and ‘saved’ etc - I explain the rationility of Catholic belief. People respect that. Also god comes across a lot more forgiving and a lot more understanding.

Our God is a loving just truthful faithful God. For us to find this treasure so precious, how can we not want to spread the good news.🙂
 
**>Once the Gauntlet is thrown, we cannot abstain…<

Though, as long as we insist of right and wrong and think we are the only ones who know the one and only truth, love can’t rise; love, that’s the one and only legitimate way to be a Christian.
Offensive speech hardly wins friends. Convicted and convincing evidence all the more. Let’s be living evidence of Christ.

…LESS DEFENCE OF CATHOLIC DOCTRINE would be the wrong way. Doctrines must really be explained instead of defended, for they are groundwork for all humans – not just for Catholics. **
Bruno. These are such beautiful Christ filled words. Thank for these very important points, and just reminding us why we doing this. Not to be ‘puffed up and proud’ but to be servants.
Explain not defend. Brilliant!!
Offensive speech hardly wins friends!!

AMEN!👍
 
I note, in the thread title, something curious: Since Christ founded one church; since we are members of that Body; since He breathed the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles; since their successors have all authority to bind and loose on earth, aren’t Catholic doctrines Christ speaking to the world? How can we separate the two? The Church is Christ and Christ is His Church.

Or am I all messed up here?
 
I feel much the same as the OP: I actually love Doctrine, believe every syllable of it.

But I’m afraid Catholic practice increasingly leaves me cold.

I love an orthodox mass, but I’m tired of nit-picking it to pieces. I believe in honoring Mary, but I’m tired of hearing more about her than her Son. I’m tired of Sunday Mass running an hour and a half because the music minister just. won’t. shut. up.

And most of all, I’m tired of myself. Tired of being angry, tired of being negative, tired of being tired.

Most of all, I want a Jesus that can save me from myself, give me a sense that I matter, that life matters.

I’m looking for a sign that my fellow Catholics have found that Christ, that being Catholic gives them a sense of peace and joy; a sense that the Church makes their day to day lives better, happier, more fulfilled.

I’m afraid i haven’t had much luck so far.
 
Dear Sam, Jesus said “with whatever measure you meet, it will be met to you again”. In today’s language, that means “what comes around goes around”. If you are feeling unloved, then its time to focus on loving others. Relying on a church service to satisfy the need for love in your life only leads to legalism. The scripture says “God is Love”. Take a moment and let that sink in. If you really want to know God, you must be willing to make the focus of your life Love. If you do this for a long period of time, you will begin to love loving others. That is loving God…learning to love love.forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/smile.gif
🙂
 
**Well, the Church increasingly feels just as frustrated of her members, as vice versa. Both forgot, how togetherness works. I too know a lot of Priests who “do their job” but sadly enough avoid further contacts as “off topic”. Members of the parish avoid each other and so on.
However, my friends an I are most disappointed of Priests, though they do not represent THE CHURCH but actually ought to serve her. Ought to, but their stiff upper lip doesn’t allow them to mix up with ordinary folks like me. So, I’m as frustrated as you.
Some even think, I’m a proper antichrist, as I do go to church not when the calendar says so, but when I feel so. Church isn’t God, and God you can “have” an time, any situation, any place, as long as you like.
Don’t let the church tell you, it’s a sin not regularly go to church. Don’t burden more sins upon you, then you commit anyway. Go to Church when you want to be closer to God, to thank being allowed to be such near.

Well, I too haven’t had much luck so far as to hearing that “my fellow Catholics have found that Christ, that being Catholic gives them a sense of peace and joy; a sense that the Church makes their day to day lives better, happier, more fulfilled”. That’s because most of them are either to wishy-washy Christians, or too fanatic in ACTING AFTER RULES INSTEAD OF ACTING AFTER DESIRE.

Now, what’s very important on this point is: Catholicism does not bring you believe. The devil Hitler was Rom. Catholic. It’s the desire to be a Christian, which you are only then, if you have this desire to follow Jesus Christ, because you believe in His word.
Catholic was every Christian until Luther’s schism and short time later King Henry VIII, when the Protestants separated and later on kept separating, over and over again into hundreds of “Christian Churches”.

So; Catholic is neither guaranty or warranty, nor a brand, but it’s the original Christianity.
True, before Luther pointed it out, the one and only Church (Catholic and Orthodox) had made many mistakes. Though, the reason for the schism was rather political fortune of some kings and princes than religious reasons. Even though Luther made some basic theological mistakes, his until today endless protesting Church, separated from the original. Church, Pope and Christians made a huge mistake letting things run this way. The simple monk Luther became tool in the hands of politics. Luther’s basic theological mistakes survived however in all the many protestant denominations until this day.
So let’s be glad about being born into the original church of Jesus Christ.

What am I saying this for? Because Catholicism itself, doesn’t give you “a sense of peace and joy; a sense that the Church makes their day to day lives better, happier, more fulfilled”.
Christianity does! . . . It does then, if and when and as son as we really open ourselves to Jesus Christ.

I know a lot of people and sadly enough Priests too, whom you wouldn’t really mix up with, even though you find these members of Cath. Parishes every Sunday in church – yes, even every day. They have a lot of sweet words, golden framed and true, but what they do not have is love. St. Peter was the first Pope and he said: Even if we where spoke in Angels tongues and fulfil all rules of Christianity but had no love, we where nothing but a hollow bowl. And so said St. Paul in 1Cor. 13:1

Yes, I too am afraid, I haven’t had much luck so far with my fellow Christians. But – what about if we started to “gives others a sense of peace and joy; a sense that the Christianity makes their day to day lives better, happier, more fulfilled”. In that case, we would show probable cause that makes Christianity creditable out of own experience.
**
Krippenfiguren at t-online.de
 
**PS.:
po18guy fears, if he might have got something messed up here?

No – you did not!

But the Church isn’t Jesus Christ himself, though she is Jesu’s Church he founded and this Church is not up to the manipulation of humans, but she is flushed and continuously influenced by the Holy Spirit. Even though, mistakes happen in that Church (we are not yet in heaven;) ). The Church, the Pope, the Cardinals and Bishops know that. Therefore the struggle will go on to absolutely and without mistake follow Christ. And that’s why the Church calls herself the continuously renewing:
ECCLESIA SEMPER REFORMANDA
**
 
**Well, the Church increasingly feels just as frustrated of her members, as vice versa. Both forgot, how togetherness works. I too know a lot of Priests who “do their job” but sadly enough avoid further contacts as “off topic”. Members of the parish avoid each other and so on. …
**
Krippenfiguren at t-online.de
Bruno, my brother in Christ. Your last letter was really inspiring. This letter although I dont agree with all of it is actually an honest airing of a man of Christ crying for reform. A man saying - I want to follow Christ but I am stumbling.

I want to share some thoughts…
Firstly I want to tell you that it is a commandment to attend Sunday mass - keep the Sabbath holy. Although this might seem like a rule. It is a rule of love from God to ourselves. YOU GO TO CHURCH AND HONOUR CHRIST ON SUNDAY! 🙂 my brother - the Lord knows what is best for us and I shout that at you in absolute love.

If we are to start diassembling and questions the 10 commandments then we have to ask if we have obedience to god. Never mind the church.

I am a cradle Catholic and I have been out of the church. I was evangelical for a while and I saw lovers of Jesus - lovely people - that live Christs word and love Him. However I also saw a lot of other things:
  1. Disagreement on certain scriptures e.g. can you lose your salvation
  2. Their services have either a routine or totally excludes all routine absolutely and becomes obvious
  3. I have never been at a service where the Our Father was recited. Not one ! Believe it or not
  4. THEY ARE TOO VEHENMENTLY ANTI CATHOLIC TO BE CHRISTIANS! (some)
  5. I felt like raising my hands praising the Lord to music was as good as kneeling to my mass prayers
  6. I often wondered. If there was no electronic screen - no overhead projector - how would this service be?
  7. A DISSATISFACTION AMONGST BELIEVERS. They were not full healthy people with great jobs and happy lives and glowing the love of Christ. In fact I have never met so many unemployed people before in my life! And I did not see a great work ethic either but there was a great prayer ethic - ad nauseum.
I could go on…
BUT I want to mention that I love them all. They love the Lord.

Catholicism makes sense and is biblically based even though is was created before the bible existed. The Eucharist is central. Absolute central. Seek the Lord - you will thirst after the Eucharist.

The Catholic Church frustrated me and with various other factors I left. BUT I have never felt the true joy of Christ ANYWHERE else but in the Catholic Church. That true love and happiness. That certitude. Nowwhere. That trust. Nowhwere.

So the brat is back. And more humble for it. Now I have got more involved with my church. Instead of criticizing I am getting involved. You will be amazed how much your ideas change when you get involved.

St Francis never left the Church but he reformed it. Luther split the Church. Decide what you want to be. A Luther or a St Francis.
Whatever you decide. Let God tell you what to do. Dont follow your own plan cause you will land up lost. Speak to God. Get involved and pray. Be the change you want to see. We need you !!! IN the Church.

Blessings my brother,
👍
 
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