More Christ Less Defence of Catholic Doctrine

[Roza]

But why should it be sometimes offensive to defend ones own faith? I spoke it out always with not the slightest offence when speaking to atheists or those weak in their believe. It’s so easy to say I believe in God and Christianity is the most important thing in my life. So what?!

I managed to be offensive though, I need to learn better communication. Dare I say I still swallow the fact that I guess I did classify as an anti for a time. I should be narrowing this reply down to just dealing with an atheist. I need to learn my faith better, I missed a lot the first time and assumed a lot that just wasn’t true. I went to CCD & Confirmation but I’m one that obviously didn’t get it and I still take sole responsibility for that.

Before you try to be Catholic, you ought to be firm in Christianity itself as a whole. It’s more important to understand Christianity, then details of Catholicism, for that will establish itself eventually. Look; my parents where Protestans. I’m still one of the Billion Catholics
And I, having so many friends who are not Catholics, bother first of all other thoughts about being a Christian. Catholicism then comes automatically

There was a time for me where it didn’t. I had to battle a lot of preconceived notions/qualms/gripes that I had which one by one were being disproved for me when I started looking again. 20 yrs ago I wasn’t an atheist, never have been but I was someone who tried to mix occult with God, that doesn’t work. I have friends still in the occult, most I don’t hear from anymore but two in a very limited way are still a part of my life.

If one lives after the word of Jesus, he will automatically hear “Welcome Home!”

Agreed

We can learn of anybody no matter which denomination or religion or even no religion at all, if that person owns love, which is the substance out of which Christianity is made.

To an extent yes but to learn from the Church Christ founded, to learn what keeps getting passed on. Jesus said He’d never leave His Church.

Things often help. Love to God however doesn’t come off things. Blinds never see a cross, nor anything sacred – but they “see” the grace of God letting them believe.

There’s more in proving the existence of God to me than anything that would attempt to disprove. I know who the god of this world is and I know people caught up in new age deceptions, I was there for a time. I know people believing in many gods and goddesses - pick and choose but even in my days away that much stayed with me as well as knowing Catholics didn’t see Mary as a goddess like the new age tries to say… new age doesn’t have anything to do with being an atheist, I know… but I can’t imagine not believing in God. I don’t think I would want to imagine.

I see I goofed on quoting a titch/retry

 

[po18guy]

Fantastic - welcome back - me too - funny how the Lord waits for us.
I am in Africa and the local people LOVE music. The are not Europeans - a lot of the worship is engrossed in expressions - in a lifting of the spirit - hence their music is always prominent. Different strokes for different folks - some of us prefer more uplifting music in the service. I was raised on guitar so thats why I love it.
I think especially for youngsters - they see Church as being boring - a little music will always draw their hearts closer to the Lord. Open their eyes to what is happening. We are not all elder people with built intellects and understanding.

As St Paul says - He will be all things to everyone to capture their hearts for the Lord.

The African Continent is extremely spiritual. That is why so many vocations are coming from there. Praise God! Yes, they use liturgical song and dance that is directed solely toward worship of God. This stands in stark contrast to the American schlock that just seems to need noise in between “the happenings” of the mass. The communion song, in particular, tends to distract from the physical and spiritual reception of Christ into your body. This is the most blessed time of all and to have to pick up a song sheet and sing just defiles it, IMO.

I have been to silent masses that are so much more spiritual.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

To an extent yes but to learn from the Church Christ founded, to learn what keeps getting passed on. Jesus said He’d never leave His Church.

****Dear Roza and everybody here, we can learn from anybody. Remember mother Teresa. She was there for the poorest of the poor. Those where mostly non-christians. But Mother teresa said: They gave me so much. So she, who was a Saint in her lifetime, she too learned from them. This doesn’t mean to leave the way of Jesus Christus for a singe inch. Jesus, who is the way and the life and the truth told us to love. To love means to give and to take from a human loved by God even then, when this human doesn’t know about God.

I see I goofed on quoting a titch/retry

No you did not. Every word was rightly put. Aren’t we all children in the eye of God

 

[Roza]

I missed what you posted about your son, my condolences. I need to not skim.

I pray I don’t sound like I am slipping back to being anti-Catholic because I’m not… but in comparison to my time in a Protestant church and even back when I was at a non-denominational fellowship in the 80’s there was more, well, fellowship. Yeah we talked to others during Church picnics and such. I think it helped that we had the classes before service… adults in one section and then the children had their classes. Not everyone would go to the classes but there were regular attenders and I usually tried to make them. We were studying together and there’d be some talking in it but mostly regarding whatever the lesson was about… this was ongoing.

Maybe something along those lines but studying the catechism and Early Church Fathers, the saints, etc. Actually I think the classes were 2 hrs and then the service which usually would be around 2 hrs. I probably will start bringing a notebook like I’ve gotten used to and write notes when I want to make sure I don’t forget something. I know I wasn’t the only one that did it.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

I missed what you posted about your son, my condolences.

**Thanks, but let’s remember, in spite of all grieve and sorrow about the many Children who go before their parents every day, we have to remember - they go into the arms of our loving God (and this even then, when they go to purgatory first).
I too need to not skim. (having looked up the word skim just now (Thanks for the present of a new word - oh there where many in your previous post).

When things happen we do not understand, just like the “death” of a beloved, let’s pray
“THY WILL BE DONE – not mine”

For there is no “death” - as any human is immortal. We go on living in Gods hemisphere forever.**

 

[Roza]

I needed to correct my post… our classes were an hour before service for kids and adults, then the service. And the greetings we did for the equivalent of the sign of peace. At some point I’d probably return for a visit, go to Mass Saturday and then go there Sunday.

20 yrs ago I know it was in one ear and out the other. I prayed but I also entertained so much I wasn’t supposed to be looking at.

God bless

 

[TurboVW]

The point is, I don’t go to Mass to enjoy myself, it’s about worshiping God. I do remember back in the 80’s hearing about a polka Mass… now, I never went to one and I admit that sounds a little off to me but I can get opinionated. QUOTE]

Good attitude about why we go to Mass.

But Polka Mass…the scourge of Chicagoland…

And people wonder why no one under 30 goes to church, esp. in the residential neighborhoods/suburbs.

If I could only post here what my friends of that age tell me about Mass…

But yes, more Christ, and more Catholic Doctrine too. Let’s not lose sight of the forest for the trees.

 

[porthos11]

I am hearing too much about why the Catholic Church is the true Church and how we oppose abortion etc etc etc this is fantastic ! Amen.
But I have grown a bit and I want to hear more about the love of Christ. I want to hear more about Catholics reaching out with love and being confident and full of the joys of Christ.

Surely the joy of the Spirit and truth must be spread with the vigour that St Paul went about his work!!

We need to be more involved, more full of life and an example to many. Get involved with your Church (if your faith is not costing you anything it is dead!) - some parishes need to have at least one organless mass to attract the youth. Preach Apologetics before Alpha!
I think there is a huge gap. We are too defensive. We need to be offensive if our faith is alive.

I have more but I will just throw that out there…so long

You’re talking about two different things, devotion and apologetics.

Not everyone is called to apologetics. Apologetics is one of the most difficult disciplines in the Church and it cannot be done without much study and prayer. But the Church is under attack and good apologists will be needed in every age.

Perhaps you are not called to apologetics and that’s just fine. But the gap between devotion and apologetics is an artificial one and there’s absolutely no reason why we should diminish one in favor of the other.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**

The point is, I don’t go to Mass to enjoy myself, it’s about worshiping God.

Now let’s imagine how we’ll handle this question in heaven, where we all will be soon – in any case in less than 100 years. What are 100 years measured on human history. How will angels do and think and feel about it? Do we really think; angels won’t have enjoyment, satisfaction and thankfulness doing so? Worshiping God.

Oh, why don’t you?! Do! I know jolly well what my sons said 30 ears ago: “It’s damn boring and the sermon was blah blah. Why wasting time. Nothing that takes you off your chair.”

That’s because Catholic priests think: Never mind, they’ll come anyway, for it’s a sin not to.
And that’s very wrong today.
Why do so many turn their back to our church and got to preachers who do “take them off their chair”?! Because they often bring the person of Jesus, who is God, into the real feeling and understanding of people with simple, but convulsing words. (Don’t know if convulsing is the right word, but you know what I mean).

Of course the sermon is not the main point in Catholic masses. But today, the word is more important that knowledge. (Why else would in election days every word the candidates say, be so immense important?!)

Why did the over 5,000 come and hear Jesus? Not because He told them things they’d know anyway and had heard over and over again, but Jesus told them why this is so in words, that where not just “good for one election” but for 2,000 years and another 2,000 years to come.

I know that’s no excuse not to attend mass, but it’s a very true argument fo the present sitiation and many a priest ought to think about it.
**
[/QUOTE]

 

[TurboVW]

Bruno, it’s a viscious cycle.

A parish might have a dottering old priest, who may turn the youth off from Mass attendendance, and some of these youth may very well have vocations buried deep inside. Without youth coming in (such as the case now) we’re stuck with certain problems that have been discussed in this thread already.

I’m just thankful for those who do come to church.
And, as you mentioned before not wanting to come, so one should remain at home…this happens. Every day and every Sunday.

This attitude already persists in our churches today, especially among the youth.

I don’t know about other areas, but many (but not all) of the numerous Catholic chcurches in my area are doing a poor job of teaching the Catholic doctrine to schoolchildren, let alone defending it.

The problems you mentioned before may hinge upon a priest, but also among us, those who teach the faith, and bring up children within it.

Like I mentioned before, we need more Christ and more Catholic Doctrine.

 

[po18guy]

Bruno, it’s a viscious cycle.

A parish might have a dottering old priest, who may turn the youth off from Mass attendendance, and some of these youth may very well have vocations buried deep inside. Without youth coming in (such as the case now) we’re stuck with certain problems that have been discussed in this thread already.

I’m just thankful for those who do come to church.
And, as you mentioned before not wanting to come, so one should remain at home…this happens. Every day and every Sunday.

This attitude already persists in our churches today, especially among the youth.

I don’t know about other areas, but many (but not all) of the numerous Catholic chcurches in my area are doing a poor job of teaching the Catholic doctrine to schoolchildren, let alone defending it.

The problems you mentioned before may hinge upon a priest, but also among us, those who teach the faith, and bring up children within it.

Like I mentioned before, we need more Christ and more Catholic Doctrine.

My wife and I have tried, over the years, to teach our children that the only reason to go to mass is Christ. Period. That can be very difficult to imagine for a young person who is immersed in this world. I take no credit other than to try to follow the teachings of Christ. And, since He is present at mass, we go without fail.

The trend toward entertainment churches is definitely one of this world. It is a product of our culture, which expects no silence during the day and a constant flow of facts and information. The “mega churches” are all about the pastor’s personality, and attendees may often switch for a better pastor, since they are searching for truth that is palatable to them.

We, as parents, relatives, friends, and brothers and sisters in Christ, have the obligation to teach our fellow Catholics that mass attendance reveals our love of God. When we place all else in our lives aside to devote even one hour to God, it reveals our love of Him to Him.

It is a matter of love dictating priorities.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Hi po18guy
If you say about Jesus Christ; “In loving memory Priest, Prophet, King”
people who don’t know, will think Jesus died (for good) and He was instead of God; Priest, Prophet and King.
This might lead to irritations.
Yours, Krippenfiguren at t-online.de
**

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Truthes about faith and believe, told in sermons or told by us to others, everybody knows already. And to use threats like “it’s a heavy sin not to go to mass on Sunday” doesn’t impress today’s people in the least. Telling them words of the bible, rules and regulations, doesn’t help them a bit. They are told in education to scrutinise everything in a critic way. EVERYTHING! So, we ought to tell them instead of “this is so” – “this is so BECAUSE… I believe because…" - for the very reason that…”. People don’t trust authorities as they did in the old days – due also to many severe disappointments they suffered in private ambit e.g. divorces.
They put different questions, progressing demands on those or that what they are willing to trust in.

I mean – look at these forums. Hardly anyone is willing to trust others in giving his mail address. It’s all anonymous. So – if we Christians hardly trust each other not even for the mail address and write in anonymous nicks only, how should they trust the church - just because we say so?! Not really.

When then priests in church perform a boring sermon (don’t tell me you’d know after every mass what the priest said) – they simply stay away and eventually get caught by sect sermonizers. They really do sometimes preach in a very catching way!
OK – they don’t have the eucharist we have, but who should care, if they don’t even know what eucharist is, and they’d laugh about threads like “IT’S A SIN NOT TO ATTEND SUNDAY MASS” and stay away just on this purpose.

What could help What would they want to hear: Sermons like those of the Holy Priest of Ars: “There, there, there He is!”

Most of us don’t understand and blame those who leave and stay away. To blame though, are we and priest who think the sermon is non-important; it shall all be as had in the last 100 years. But church is ECCLESIA SEMPER REFORMANDA – continuously renewing.

When a shepherd gets aware that his flock drifts apart because they don’t like that narrow willow, he will go and find new pastures for them and won’t force them to stay on the old one.
This drifting away is dramatic now. The “reformanda” part of the churchs name, had been and is still ill-kept. A side view on the everlasting quarrelling about the rites in English or Latin makes some think, Pope Johannes XXIII. had brought a schism instead of making towards his people for the better.

Its seems frightening to many, when rites and rules, regulations and church-commandments have priority to alive nearness to God. Lively explained nearness to God.

Please excuse my humble English. Thanks.
**

 

[po18guy]

**Hi po18guy
If you say about Jesus Christ; “In loving memory Priest, Prophet, King”
people who don’t know, will think Jesus died (for good) and He was instead of God; Priest, Prophet and King.
This might lead to irritations.
Yours, Krippenfiguren at t-online.de
**

Mein Freund, this is word for word from the Catholic Baptismal rite. That is also why I have shown from “eternity-Eternity”, because He always existed and will always exist. From John 1, He is eternal and is the Word made Flesh. So many today have been mislead to believe that the word of God is a book, or is limited to a printed page. Not true. It is Christ, Whom you and I have in our bodies, for we have eaten His Body and drunk His Blood, as He commanded.

My signature was inspired by an American fad for memorializing departed loved ones by placing decalcomania in their car’s rear window. See examples. One often sees such on vehicles on American roadways, remembering a departed loved one. Well, I thought, Who better to remember than our Savior? My intent is to cause reflection upon the Only One Who really matters.

Christ’s peace, my brother!

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**of course you are right Dear, but we always ought to have an eye on those who don’t know, and that’s whay the Christianity has so many traslations of the Holy Bible - saying the same in other words.

In loving memory we read in obituary notices, and so atheists think they are right - no matter how stupid, the rest of what they argue is stupid, but many think it’s right.
Priest, or rather Prophet say the Moslems Jesus was - “one of these Prophets”. So I would avoid these words.
I very often think, what will Jews and Moslems see/think after they die. They believe in the same God as we, consequently are our brothers in God, but they disregard Jesus as Son of the Lord, our saviour and part of God…
Will they slap thir forehead and say “how stupid of me”
Never mind - it’s not on us to decide how God rules.
I should think they all are better off than atheists then.

By the way pro18guy, I haven’t had a mail from you for ages and we do hope you are ok, namely when so many prayed for you here in the prayers request. Let’s hear, - which goes for all the others too.**

 

[po18guy]

The chemo is taking its toll. My fingers are going numb and it is painful to do some things. A rough day today, but probably better than those to come. I go for a blood test in the morning. After some sleep, I will likely have more optimism.

Christ’s peace.

 

[distracted]

i think we underestimate our youth on a regular basis…

i believe they enjoy organ music as much as anyone, particularly @ Mass… Teens are no different than others in appreciating beautiful “things”… music, etc…

The more old-fashioned a Church is, the closer i feel to God… I am sure that’s the case with many others…

Anyway… the reason people talk about doctrine here is because… well, that is waht stands between Cath & Prot “ecumenism”… It is a scandal for the Church to be divided… and only understanding our differences is going to help us be united…

 

[distracted]

The chemo is taking its toll. My fingers are going numb and it is painful to do some things. A rough day today, but probably better than those to come. I go for a blood test in the morning. After some sleep, I will likely have more optimism.

Christ’s peace.

i am praying for you… I love that thing you say at the bottom of your post… how the Bible and the Church are inseparable… I always knew that but didn’t always put in those words…

Anyway… I will pray for you to be free of cancer, a miracle to us humans but no big problem for God… I pray it is His will you are cured…

have you spend time with Jesus @ the Blessed Sacrament lately? Jesus is, as you know, powerful…

God bless…

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

i believe they enjoy organ music as much as anyone, particularly @ Mass… Teens are no different than others in appreciating beautiful “things”… music, etc…

**Well, they don’t attend mass for its music, - nor would any of us attend mass for that reason. And as soon as Teens or Twens left their Catholic home, you find very few of them in Church.
Let’s ask why this is so. Why are Churches often so empty at the Holy Mass?

When we – our Church – insist, that it’s sin not to attend Sunday-mass, then we condemn huge numbers of our fellow Catholics, and anyway (for reasons we in the back of our minds know) are „semper“ emptying Churches, that soon will be finally real empty.

Pressure and order never had been a appropriate way to make people do something – here, bring people back to Church.
So, if the Church doesn’t find another way to convince people, things won’t change for the better, for present-day people hardly respond on pressure or threats of sin and hell as in the old days.

If our Church sticks to those threats instead of explaining in a loving way, and replaces Jesus’ invitation with orders and severe successions “like you’re committing heavy sins when not attending Holy Mass at least every Sunday”, she doesn’t lead her flock on better meadows as the good shepherd does, but members will find their own way and get lost in increasing numbers. Let’s be realistic and look into Sunday mass, and we see what’s the result: Empty Churches.

Now priests are not in the state to suddenly say it’s no sin or no misconduct. But on the other hand, they must not simply insist on “it’s a sin” – else hardly anyone will listen.

What’s wrong with someone attending the Holy Mass just when he feels like it and stays away if he doesn’t. What’s wrong if that person wherever he is on leisure and finds a church, stops by for a intensive prayer instead?

Would you like a guest in your house who sees you, just because he’s obeying regulations? Wouldn’t we rather see him leave then?!

A sin indeed is, when the parish mentally points at him and says – look, he hardly ever attends mass as we do – what a bad and sinful Christian. This person very soon will never again attend mass – even if it hurts him. It still might hurt more, when fellow Christians look down on you, and won’t “mix up” with you any more.

Let’s not be contracted on rules and regulations, but handle this in love to God, love to Jesus Christ, but all the same love to anyone who tries to live in God, instead of judging over people who handle religious things not according to regulations, but on their own behalf.

In the end, everything is a matter between God and every single person and we shouldn’t encroach, for we are of no higher rank then him. Remember Mathew 7:4 - How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
**

 

[po18guy]

i am praying for you… I love that thing you say at the bottom of your post… how the Bible and the Church are inseparable… I always knew that but didn’t always put in those words…

Anyway… I will pray for you to be free of cancer, a miracle to us humans but no big problem for God… I pray it is His will you are cured…

have you spend time with Jesus @ the Blessed Sacrament lately? Jesus is, as you know, powerful…

God bless…

Spent an hour with Him last week. Will go tonight if I am able. God bless you for your prayers.