More questions about gay marriage

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Epan, please go back and reread JimG’s posts from the last years - he is in no way a bigot. We do not agree on most social issues, but that doesn’t mean that he is a homophobe or an unrational bigot. JimG is polite and non-confrontational in his postings. Yes, it is hard for me to understand those who do not agree with me, but if everyone agreed with me, this world would be a pretty boring place!:cool:
I was not calling anyone a bigot. I was pointing out that throughout the history of the expansion of civil rights, those who have opposed that progress are generally seen through the lens of history as having been bigots. Therefore, I recommend looking closely at one’s motivation, and the validity of one’s rationalizations. We know that religious arguments have been used to justify racism and persecution of various minorities. We know that the “natural law” argument has been used historically to oppress women, and to justify racism.

The question I pose, which remains unanswered, is what makes us think that this issue is somehow different in that respect.
 
What does any of that have to do with the question, what are men and women for?
Why are there men and women?
Why is sexual complementarity a fact of nature?

Of course, it has to do with children. Historically, the state has also thought that it had to do with children. If it had nothing to do with the procreative power of men and women, the state would have and should have no special interest in sexual liaisons.

Children are subject to whatever adults throw at them. The reason for making a marriage vow for life is to ensure that the children born of that union have a mom and a dad and a stable family. That can’t be guaranteed, of course, but the law did a better job of protecting children and families in the years before no fault divorce. Now, children are simply at the mercy of adult’s whims.

A sexual union of two men or two women simply is not and can never be the equivalent of a sexual union between a sexually complementary couple: that is, a man and a woman. To call these two quite different things by the same name is a disservice and a manipulation. It will further contribute to the disintegration of families within a society, just as contraception, divorce, and extramarital sex have contributed to family disintegration. Further disintegration is not needed. It will make things worse.

The disintegration of families has further shifted the burden of care for children, the elderly, and the disabled, from families to the state. We are now experiencing stresses within the state because the shift has become untenable and unsustainable. I’m afraid that eventually, the state will be unable to continue to function as the de fact dad for millions of fatherless families. Can it possibly cope with an out of wedlock birth rate of 42% to 70%? When the state can no longer handle the burden, the burden will try to shift back to families, but families will already have disintegrated to the point of inability to handle it. The resulting social chaos will put us in a place which we have not experienced since the great depression.

That’s not a happy thought. But I expect that the collapse of families will have real consequences. (For a review of the statistics of the social consequences of the sexual revolution up to this point, I would recommend Mary Eberstadt’s book, “Adam and Eve After the Pill.”)
Economic and technological changes have had as much or more to do with the changes to the family than the women’s rights movement which logically led to the gay rights movement. We are no longer a rural society which relies primarily on family laborers (Or slave laborers).

With the issues you are talking about, the gay marriage phenomenon today is just a comma or a period in a long paragraph. It is the logical consequence of events which started more than a century ago. Gay people are such a small minority that they could do very little to influence the social trends which you refer to.

I think you are finding a bogey man where it does not exist, and peoples’ efforts and interests would be far more effective if concerned with other topics.
 
I was not calling anyone a bigot. I was pointing out that throughout the history of the expansion of civil rights, those who have opposed that progress are generally seen through the lens of history as having been bigots. Therefore, I recommend looking closely at one’s motivation, and the validity of one’s rationalizations. We know that religious arguments have been used to justify racism and persecution of various minorities. We know that the “natural law” argument has been used historically to oppress women, and to justify racism.

The question I pose, which remains unanswered, is what makes us think that this issue is somehow different in that respect.
I certainly did not take your comments as an accusation of bigotry. But I do not think that the civil rights argument can be applied to every conceivable new right just because it is deemed a civil right. It is certainly a new idea to apply it to gay marriage. Will it next be applied to polygamy and pederasty? Who knows? And why do the civil rights of adults take precedence over the rights of children, who are often harmed by the civil rights exercised by adults? For example, the abortion right enables adults to kill unborn children. Gay marriage often means that children will be placed with same sex couples without regard to their natural right to know and be connected with a natural mother and father.

There is no denying that men and women are not identical. That is not a natural law argument, that’s just a fact of nature. They are different in that they are sexually complementary. It is that difference which led to the institution of marriage. Not every marriage results in children but most do, and that is how the human species continues. It is how civilizations continue. For that reason governments have an interest in the regulation of marriage. It has no similar interest in same sex marriage, which is inherently incapable of producing the next generation of citizens.

A union between a man and a woman is simply not the same thing as a union between two
men. Why should they be called by the same name or accorded the same civil recognition?

One can call nuts and bolts by the same name but it might cause some confusion. One can call them by the same name as long as one recognizes that they are really different things. You wouldn’t want to build a machine without recognizing that intrinsic difference, nor would you want to build a society without recognizing the intrinsic difference between very different kinds of unions even if you call them by the same name.

But I don’t blame same sex marriage for the disintegration of marriage or the dissolution of society. In order for gay marriage to become a possibility, marriage had first to be destroyed. Contraception destroyed the link between sex and procreation. In doing so, it destroyed the link between marriage and procreation. It destroyed the link between parents and children. Divorce and cohabitation further knocked chinks out of marriage, creating fatherless kids and split households. And since marriage and family has been the building block of civilization, society itself began to crumble. Already, among heterosexuals, marriage is becoming increasingly unpopular. It seems to be a dying institution.

It was only after that destruction was begun, and continued—by heterosexuals—than same sex marriage could become a possibility. What distinguishes same sex marriage is that it not only undermines marriage, like divorce and contraception, it turns it inside out, by making an oxymoron into something recognized in civil law.

Personally, I don’t doubt that the trend toward recognizing same sex marriage will continue. So I am not hopeful for the future. Eventually the collapse of families combined with the collapse of the welfare state will create a social crisis from which we may hope to rebuild.
 
QUOTE=andrewstx;12406058]But what of those who aren’t in the majority. They don’t count at all? Ever hear of the tyranny of the majority?
I live in a small town where the over whelming majority are the same. Sounds like a conservative paradise no? Not if you are not in the majority. Nearly all here are fundamental Protestants. If you are Catholic, sorry you just don’t matter. They all dress and vote (tea party) the same, they same drink vats of beer, listen to the same music on the one radio station. If you don’t conform to the tee you are a pariah. They may speak to you at the market or c-store. But that is strictly it. Only Caucasions matter here, they prevent the poor and minorities from voting by an unjust voter ID law.
Yes I know of the tyranny of the majority…also known as democracy.
Your protestants do not have to like you and can act like rectal apertures all they want. But they cannot violate your individual rights. This is a Republic. I like it this way and is the reason I became a U.S. citizen.
Read homosexuality into this all. If it is unjust in one place, it is unjust in every place. I think if God wanted all people to be indentical, God would have given every man or woman the same desires and tastes. God obviously didn’t do that.
Right, God gave men and women different desires and tastes for the purpose of procreation. Homosexuals are nothing more than heterosexual men and women who acquired desires and tastes for the same sex…not exactly God’s plan.
 
I was not calling anyone a bigot. I was pointing out that throughout the history of the expansion of civil rights, those who have opposed that progress are generally seen through the lens of history as having been bigots. Therefore, I recommend looking closely at one’s motivation, and the validity of one’s rationalizations. We know that religious arguments have been used to justify racism and persecution of various minorities. We know that the “natural law” argument has been used historically to oppress women, and to justify racism.

The question I pose, which remains unanswered, is what makes us think that this issue is somehow different in that respect.
One needs to look at the history of homosexuality as a psychological condition. Why was it classified as a mental disorder? Why did years of research and published articles get thrown out when the APA had a vote to reclassify the condition in 1973?

This is not a civil rights matter like the color of one’s skin.

jewishworldreview.com/jeff/jacoby_gay_marriage.php3

christianpost.com/news/100-black-pastors-denounce-gay-rights-civil-rights-comparison-join-legal-fight-for-michigans-marriage-amendment-119816/

wnd.com/2014/09/black-pastors-called-silver-bullet-against-gay-marriage/

Hope this helps,
Ed
 
One needs to look at the history of homosexuality as a psychological condition. Why was it classified as a mental disorder? Why did years of research and published articles get thrown out when the APA had a vote to reclassify the condition in 1973?

This is not a civil rights matter like the color of one’s skin.

jewishworldreview.com/jeff/jacoby_gay_marriage.php3

christianpost.com/news/100-black-pastors-denounce-gay-rights-civil-rights-comparison-join-legal-fight-for-michigans-marriage-amendment-119816/

wnd.com/2014/09/black-pastors-called-silver-bullet-against-gay-marriage/

Hope this helps,
Ed
Ed, I asked my dear nephew, who is a board certified psychiatrist and on the clinical staff at a top 5 med school about this very subject. He said that it is similar to the advances made when Tourette’s Syndrome was thought to be demons in someone’s body but then the medical community came to the conclusion that it is a medical condition. The consensus among psychiatrists is that there are a significant number of the LGBTQ population that were born gay according to my nephew. Obviously, there is still no gay gene that has been discovered, but, I do believe some humans are born LGBQT. Hopefully Papa Francis’ letter concerning the worth of gay individuals will slowly move the minority of Catholics who think that being gay is “intrinsically disordered” away from that sort of thinking.:rolleyes:
 
The consensus among psychiatrists is that there are a significant number of the LGBTQ population that were born gay according to my nephew. Obviously, there is still no gay gene that has been discovered, but, I do believe some humans are born LGBQT.
Some progress has been made in this area. The genes are not so much “gay genes” but “Phwoar, he’s hunky” genes. If women have them then they have more children than average (which is why the genes persist) if men have them then they tend to be homosexual.

See: Why Gays Don’t Go Extinct:

A team of researchers found that some female relatives of gay men tend to have more children than average. The scientists used a computer model to explain how two genes passed on through the maternal line could produce this effect.

In 2004 the researchers studied about 200 Italian families and found that the mothers, maternal aunts and maternal grandmothers of gay men are more fecund, or fruitful, than average.

rossum
 
Some progress has been made in this area. The genes are not so much “gay genes” but “Phwoar, he’s hunky” genes. If women have them then they have more children than average (which is why the genes persist) if men have them then they tend to be homosexual.

See: Why Gays Don’t Go Extinct:

A team of researchers found that some female relatives of gay men tend to have more children than average. The scientists used a computer model to explain how two genes passed on through the maternal line could produce this effect.

In 2004 the researchers studied about 200 Italian families and found that the mothers, maternal aunts and maternal grandmothers of gay men are more fecund, or fruitful, than average.

rossum
Rossum - thanks for the info, it’s facinating!👍
 
Ed, I asked my dear nephew, who is a board certified psychiatrist and on the clinical staff at a top 5 med school about this very subject. He said that it is similar to the advances made when Tourette’s Syndrome was thought to be demons in someone’s body but then the medical community came to the conclusion that it is a medical condition. The consensus among psychiatrists is that there are a significant number of the LGBTQ population that were born gay according to my nephew. Obviously, there is still no gay gene that has been discovered, but, I do believe some humans are born LGBQT. Hopefully Papa Francis’ letter concerning the worth of gay individuals will slowly move the minority of Catholics who think that being gay is “intrinsically disordered” away from that sort of thinking.:rolleyes:
Respectfully, the Church teaches it is intrinsically disordered.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

I understand the born that way thinking, but it appears that, for example, transgender persons were recently reclassified due to lobbying the APA by activists in the LGBT community for years. That’s not scientific. A similar approach was taken in 1973.

amazon.com/Homosexuality-American-Psychiatry-Politics-Diagnosis/dp/0691028370

ncregister.com/daily-news/psychiatrys-new-normal-transgendered-persons

Peace,
Ed
 
Ed, I asked my dear nephew, who is a board certified psychiatrist and on the clinical staff at a top 5 med school about this very subject. He said that it is similar to the advances made when Tourette’s Syndrome was thought to be demons in someone’s body but then the medical community came to the conclusion that it is a medical condition. The consensus among psychiatrists is that there are a significant number of the LGBTQ population that were born gay according to my nephew. Obviously, there is still no gay gene that has been discovered, but, I do believe some humans are born LGBQT. Hopefully Papa Francis’ letter concerning the worth of gay individuals will slowly move the minority of Catholics who think that being gay is “intrinsically disordered” away from that sort of thinking.:rolleyes:
I worry about “consensus”.

The work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. **Consensus is the business of politics. **Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant.
 
Ed, I asked my dear nephew, who is a board certified psychiatrist and on the clinical staff at a top 5 med school about this very subject. He said that it is similar to the advances made when Tourette’s Syndrome was thought to be demons in someone’s body but then the medical community came to the conclusion that it is a medical condition. The consensus among psychiatrists is that there are a significant number of the LGBTQ population that were born gay according to my nephew. Obviously, there is still no gay gene that has been discovered, but, I do believe some humans are born LGBQT. Hopefully Papa Francis’ letter concerning the worth of gay individuals will slowly move the minority of Catholics who think that being gay is “intrinsically disordered” away from that sort of thinking.:rolleyes:
Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. People with Same Sex Attraction who are chaste is not the issue, and by the way, single heterosexual Catholics need to be chaste as well.

The APA was influenced to change its classification of homosexuality in 1973 by gay activists, not science.

amazon.com/Homosexuality-American-Psychiatry-Politics-Diagnosis/dp/0691028370

A more recent example is activists from the LGBT community lobbying the APA for years about a reclassification of transgender persons. Lobbying to reclassify a disorder is not scientific.

ncregister.com/daily-news/psychiatrys-new-normal-transgendered-persons

Peace,
Ed
 
Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. People with Same Sex Attraction who are chaste is not the issue, and by the way, single heterosexual Catholics need to be chaste as well.

The APA was influenced to change its classification of homosexuality in 1973 by gay activists, not science.

amazon.com/Homosexuality-American-Psychiatry-Politics-Diagnosis/dp/0691028370

A more recent example is activists from the LGBT community lobbying the APA for years about a reclassification of transgender persons. Lobbying to reclassify a disorder is not scientific.

ncregister.com/daily-news/psychiatrys-new-normal-transgendered-persons

Peace,
Ed
Ed, hopefully with the guidance of Pope Francis and the Holy Spirit, no young person who is gay, straight or asexual will read that their Church believes that they are “intrinsically disordered”. I can’t imagine my parish (huge Jesuit parish attached to a prep school and elementary school) priest or any of the five Jesuits that are assigned there actually telling someone that they are disordered - it’s just not the culture of my parish.👍
 
Ed, hopefully with the guidance of Pope Francis and the Holy Spirit, no young person who is gay, straight or asexual will read that their Church believes that they are “intrinsically disordered”. I can’t imagine my parish (huge Jesuit parish attached to a prep school and elementary school) priest or any of the five Jesuits that are assigned there actually telling someone that they are disordered - it’s just not the culture of my parish.👍
Oh, I truly understand. However, the topic is gay marriage. I think it’s safe to conclude that gay sex is involved. The Church, and no one I know, or me, wants to shun gay people. I worked at a major hospital for nearly 10 years. In my many trips to the emergency room, a patient’s sexual orientation was not an issue unless the patient presented with a problem that involved an STD or other sexual activity related problem. The question was “Are you sexually active?” If necessary. Not, are you LGBT?

Only in a few cases that I know of were more questions asked, but they revolved around treatment only, not whether this or that was disordered.

I think the core issue for gay and straight is: “I can’t control myself!” That is, MY sexual behavior. Of course you can. I mean who decides when you engage in any type of sexual behavior? You and only you. Not the State. Or the Church. So the question is: Why gay marriage? Why institutionalize gay sex in this manner? Why attempt to normalize it?

Peace,
Ed
 
I mean who decides when you engage in any type of sexual behavior? You and only you. Not the State. Or the Church. So the question is: Why gay marriage? Why institutionalize gay sex in this manner? Why attempt to normalize it?

Peace,
Ed
👍👍👍
 
‘Religious Truth’ is an Oxymoron in that not all religions can be true, so some are by definition, false.

Religion is based on faith not truth. Truth requires evidence.

Catholics may believe that the ‘Lord’ has a view on homosexuality,and that that view should carry weight, but that is a religious position and not a ‘legal rights’ position.

Homosexuality predates Christianity. Man creates Gods not the other way round. There are millions of homosexuals that deserve our respect and their desire for equal rights. We should not use religious pretexts to hinder their rights.
You are correct, although I wouldn’t say the religions are false, but rather misguided.

You are incorrect in stating that religion is not based not truth, but rather on faith. Religion is based on truth; belief is based on faith - there is a difference. And the Catholic Church, as the Church instilled by Christ and carrying on the apostolic succession, maintains the truth given by Christ and preserved by the Holy Spirit. That is why the Church is the One, True, Holy, and Apostolic faith.

You are again correct that the view of what Christ taught us about homosexuality (and God taught the Israelites in the Old Testament) is a religious view, not a legal view, but what does that actually mean? God also commanded not to murder, not to steal, not to commit adultery. His moral code also formed legal code that was for the benefit of society. Now, people may try to find secular reasons to justify the religious laws, but if you drill down deep enough, it goes back to a religion-based morality. But, for the record, remember that the federal government and individual states legally declared marriage as existing between a man and a woman.

Homosexuality does predate Christianity, but not Creation. We were created by God - to claim ‘spontaneous existence’ only serves to name ourselves as gods. He wrote His Truth into our very souls. Among those was that everyone should be treated with love and charity. What you are confusing is that the fact that someone desires for something does not make it right. There are literally thousands of people who kill others - that doesn’t make it right. There are those who desire incestuous relationships or polygamy, that doesn’t make it right, either. They should have equal rights, but they are asking us to make two things equal that (quite clearly) are not equal.
 
It’s clear that the Church’s battle to fight legal recognition of same-sex marriages in the USA is completely lost forever.

I believe the Church has no choice but to recalibrate the battle and instead fight for its own right to freedom of religion, that is, not being forced to marry gay couples and so on.

So much like with abortion, although the issue may not be completely off the table, a reversal will never be possible. Like with abortion, the only battles now will be in the details.
 
It’s clear that the Church’s battle to fight legal recognition of same-sex marriages in the USA is completely lost forever.

I believe the Church has no choice but to recalibrate the battle and instead fight for its own right to freedom of religion, that is, not being forced to marry gay couples and so on.

So much like with abortion, although the issue may not be completely off the table, a reversal will never be possible. Like with abortion, the only battles now will be in the details.
Human history goes on and on and on. Why say “never”? Why give up the fight before it is over?
 
Human history goes on and on and on. Why say “never”? Why give up the fight before it is over?
Simple. The economic incentives and jobs created due to legal recognition of same-sex marriages. Although gays are small in percentage, they have disproportionately high incomes.

Also, the fact that gays are well-organized politically, and arguably show more love to people than Christians, will continue to ensure that they will never be oppressed.
 
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