Mormon Claims

[catholic-rcia]

(Edited)

There are many reasons why Tom should be here and not over at some Mormon Forum. Tom, have you ever thought about giving tours of your Parish? I love to do this because I get to speak to souls coming in about Jesus face to face. Its been a great journey doing this. If you want information on how we do it just private message me.

When we have our RCIA meeting here in Utah with Mormons present we always try to guide the focus away from speaking about the LDS church. We have learned to focus on our beliefs, our doctrine and bring that forth. We do not have to put another faith down in order to lift our Catholic faith. Like I said before a Catholic views himself and herself as fallen. This is why we need Jesus’ Church.

It is usually the LDS that want to speak about the LDS church. We do let this take place when the time is right because some just need to get it out. We understand that.

But for the most part again we try to bring the focus back to Jesus and the church He established. You are coming to Tom’s church where he is here to defend it for others that may be following these post, to help others find the truth that we have all found. Its not so much to try and convert you. We do not have that kind of control. Well at least you now know why I come here every now and then.

Rich
www.chooseyourcross.com

 

[PaulDupre]

So, the only difference between LDS and Catholics on this point is that the LDS church have priesthood authority in the homes whereas the Catholic church have priesthood calling and marital calling separate (you can only have one or the other and not both).

Pinay, it breaks my heart reading your posts, to see that you had no understanding of Catholicism before you left it. Apparently you do not know that every validly baptized person shares in the one priesthood of Jesus Christ. We Catholics call it “the common priesthood of the baptized”, as distinct from the ordained priesthood. Each priesthood is distinct in its responsibilities and authority (much as your “Aaronic” and “Melchizedek” priesthoods have separate responsibilities and authority). Jesus is the only priest. We merely share in His priesthood.

The Catholic bride and groom perform the marriage themselves by virtue of their priesthood. The ordained priest acts only as the witness for the church community. Did you know that? Catholic parents are the priesthood leaders in their homes and have the duty and the authority to bless their children, their homes, the food they eat, etc and are authorized (and commanded) to be the primary teachers of the gospel to their children.

The ironic thing here is that, since LDS baptism is not valid, LDS who have not been validly baptized (as you were as a Catholic infant) do not hold the priesthood of the baptized. It may surprise you to know that you hold the priesthood as by virtue of your Catholic baptism.

Here is a good article about the common priesthood.

There are also a number of passages in the Catechism about it if you care to read them.

BTW, my wife is a Filipina from Ilocos Norte. We own a vacation home there and go every year for 3 or 4 weeks.

Paul

 

[MelanieAnne]

Paul your post reminds me of something Fr. Corapi once said ~ what’s the most important calling in the Church? The laity ~ it’s obvious because God made so many of them!

 

[Stephen168]

I agree with Pinay’s response. His response agrees with mine. He just used different words, but meaning the same thing. God inspires men from all faiths to accomplish His designs. The way I understand authority is to have the priesthood or authority given by God to act in his name like it was given to Peter. In that sense I understand the Catholic church not to have such authority. To acknowledge that, in my view, is to endorse the Catholic Church as the Church of God, which I don’t of course. But as Pinay explained, they were guided by the light or inspiration of God to preserve the records and combine them into canonical books. Even though such work is not perfect, it is a marvelous legacy that caused good influence on millions of the children of God since then.

Of course we are not talking about men, we are talking of the authority of the Catholic Church and the authority of the Church of England. The Mormon Church accepts the authority of the Catholic Church to decide what writing would be considered sacred scripture (New Testament) and the authority of the Church of England to translated it into English. Does the Mormon Church celebrate Easter and Christmas? If so, do they celebrate them on the same day decided by the Catholic Church or do they have their own date?

 

[MelanieAnne]

Of course we are not talking about men, we are talking of the authority of the Catholic Church and the authority of the Church of England. The Mormon Church accepts the authority of the Catholic Church to decide what writing would be considered sacred scripture (New Testament) and the authority of the Church of England to translated it into English. Does the Mormon Church celebrate Easter and Christmas? If so, do they celebrate them on the same day decided by the Catholic Church or do they have their own date?

Not that you asked me but I would say “no”. The Mormon Church does not celebrate Easter as anything special and if the date (and they accept the traditional date) conflicts with their General Conference, they have General Conference. But then, since in their church buildings Easter is “no big deal”, then it is understandable that they would not postpone their General Conference because of Easter.

Ditto Christmas, except that there is no conflict with General Conference. They may have a Christmas Program, and they will have services on Sundays, and if Christmas falls on a Sunday it might be mentioned, but if Christmas occurs on another day but Sunday, there will be no special service.

It would be erroneous to assume that the sort of services that we Catholics take for granted are typical of Mormon services.

 

[SteveVH]

I agree with Pinay’s response. His response agrees with mine. He just used different words, but meaning the same thing. God inspires men from all faiths to accomplish His designs. The way I understand authority is to have the priesthood or authority given by God to act in his name like it was given to Peter. In that sense I understand the Catholic church not to have such authority. To acknowledge that, in my view, is to endorse the Catholic Church as the Church of God, which I don’t of course. But as Pinay explained, they were guided by the light or inspiration of God to preserve the records and combine them into canonical books. Even though such work is not perfect, it is a marvelous legacy that caused good influence on millions of the children of God since then.

You accept the authority of the Catholic Church as to its authority to determine the canon of Sacred Scripture (through the guidance of the Holy Spirt I assume) and then accuse it of inserting error into these very texts, which purportedly is why “such work is not perfect” and requires the BoM in order to arrive at an accurate interpretation.

In addition, you have no evidence that the texts making up the canon of scripture have ever changed since they were first canonized. The LDS have claimed that the scriptures were, at one time, “plain and clear” and it was only after the CC got ahold of them the the plain and clear message was lost. The New Testament is a Catholic document. Why would any organization arrive at a document and then insert error into their own document? This has never made sense to me.

 

[SirThomasMore]

The LDS Claim the Book of Mormon is the most perfect book. Yet, once they realized blacks were not turning white, they had to change a verse that said they would turn white to they would turn pure.

Odd, huh?

 

[PaulDupre]

I agree with Pinay’s response. His response agrees with mine. He just used different words, but meaning the same thing.

Just for the sake of clarity, Pinay is a female. The word Pinay is the feminine form of “Pinoy”, which is an affectionate slang term the Filipinos use to identify themselves.

I know this only because my wife is a Pinay (pronounced pee-nay, where “ay” has a long I sound - like the word “eye” in English).

Paul

 

[evanfaust]

Of course we are not talking about men, we are talking of the authority of the Catholic Church and the authority of the Church of England. The Mormon Church accepts the authority of the Catholic Church to decide what writing would be considered sacred scripture (New Testament) and the authority of the Church of England to translated it into English. Does the Mormon Church celebrate Easter and Christmas? If so, do they celebrate them on the same day decided by the Catholic Church or do they have their own date?

Stephen168,

If you prefer to use the word “authority”, then let’s go ahead and use it in a limited sense, and not in the full sense of the word, because that is how we understand it. This “limited or restricted authority” is nothing more than an inspiration or a portion of the light of God upon a group of men to accomplish His purposes. This same “limited or restricted authority” is also extended to the Muslims, Bhudist and any other organization on the earth. We also think the the Koran is an inspired book, but we know they have doctrines that are conflicting with the Bible and our own Theology.

As far as celebration, we do not have to celebrate the same way Catholics do, we reserve the prerrogative to celebrate our own way. You know that Jesus Christ was not born in December. However, we also join the world in celebrating the “adopted” date for the birth of Christ. It is a great time of the year. We all just love it! It is a time when people are more sensitive and more compassionate. That is great!

To us the resurrection of Christ is the most important event in all history of mankind! That is part of our Theology. The way we celebrate it is not that relevant.

 

[evanfaust]

Just for the sake of clarity, Pinay is a female. The word Pinay is the feminine form of “Pinoy”, which is an affectionate slang term the Filipinos use to identify themselves.

I know this only because my wife is a Pinay (pronounced pee-nay, where “ay” has a long I sound - like the word “eye” in English).

Paul

Thanks for clarifying that Paul!

 

[evanfaust]

The LDS Claim the Book of Mormon is the most perfect book. Yet, once they realized blacks were not turning white, they had to change a verse that said they would turn white to they would turn pure.

Odd, huh?

“Can we justify the prophet’s change from “white” to “pure?” The answer is yes. The terms “white” and “pure” can be found in parallel in Daniel 7:9, Revelation 15:6, and D&C 110:3. They are also found together in a number of passages where they clearly refer to those who are purified and redeemed by Christ. Moreover, we must note that the “white/pure and delightsome” passage that the prophet Joseph modified does not refer to the Lamanites, but to the Jews and Gentiles in the latter days who turn to Christ.”

“ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.” Dan 7:9

“And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.” Rev 15:6

blacklds.org/tvedtnes

 

[why_me]

“ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.” Dan 7:9

“And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.” Rev 15:6

blacklds.org/tvedtnes

Many years ago when I was in NYC, we had an african american group who would be claiming that they were the true jews and chosen race. They often cited that verse to justify their claim. They would preach from the street corner condemning the white race.

I bring this up to show just how people interpret bible passages. The pure and delightsome passage in the book of mormon will always draw criticism because of what is on the internet. And it doesn’t seem to matter how mormons respond to the criticism. I don’t think that most minds will be changed. It is not in the DNA to do so. People will always believe what they want to believe. It is no different with those people who do not like the catholic faith because of this reason or that reason. No matter how catholics respond to the criticism, it doesn’t really change people’s minds.

But the reasoning that you posted was a good one.

 

[evanfaust]

Many years ago when I was in NYC, we had an african american group who would be claiming that they were the true jews and chosen race. They often cited that verse to justify their claim. They would preach from the street corner condemning the white race.

I bring this up to show just how people interpret bible passages. The pure and delightsome passage in the book of mormon will always draw criticism because of what is on the internet. And it doesn’t seem to matter how mormons respond to the criticism. I don’t think that most minds will be changed. It is not in the DNA to do so. People will always believe what they want to believe. It is no different with those people who do not like the catholic faith because of this reason or that reason. No matter how catholics respond to the criticism, it doesn’t really change people’s minds.

But the reasoning that you posted was a good one.

You said it very well! That is very true! Most people don’t have an open mind to try to understand, but we always have hopes that someone will make sense of it.

The most important thing for me is that I like to be challended and I learn from the criticism. As a matter of fact, I have learned a lot about Mormonism with the critics questioning. They make me research more and I gain more understanding and conviction of the truth. I just keep building pillars! They keep us on our toes, as Robert Millet said.

 

[RebeccaJ]

“Can we justify the prophet’s change from “white” to “pure?” The answer is yes. The terms “white” and “pure” can be found in parallel in Daniel 7:9, Revelation 15:6, and D&C 110:3. They are also found together in a number of passages where they clearly refer to those who are purified and redeemed by Christ. Moreover, we must note that the “white/pure and delightsome” passage that the prophet Joseph modified does not refer to the Lamanites, but to the Jews and Gentiles in the latter days who turn to Christ.”

“ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.” Dan 7:9

“And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.” Rev 15:6

blacklds.org/tvedtnes

“And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, and they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.” 2 Nephi 5:21

“And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites.” 3 Nephi 2:15

“When the Lord has a people, he makes covenants with them and gives unto them promises: then, if they transgress his law, change his ordinances, and break his covenants he has made with them, he will put a mark upon them, as in the case of the Lamanites and other portions of the house of Israel; but by-and-by they will become a white and delightsome people” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:336)

“The [Indian] children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation” (Spencer W Kimball, Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-3)

“These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.” (Spencer W Kimball, Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-3)

“…their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people.” 2 Nephi 30

…so the LDS church has had to modify 2 Nephi 30, both to hide a false prophecy and the racist origins of a religion. Only problem is, these other passages in their Book of Mormon, and what has been written and taught by their “prophets”, will continue to shine a light on the attempted lie.

 

[SirThomasMore]

“Can we justify the prophet’s change from “white” to “pure?” The answer is yes. The terms “white” and “pure” can be found in parallel in Daniel 7:9, Revelation 15:6, and D&C 110:3. They are also found together in a number of passages where they clearly refer to those who are purified and redeemed by Christ. Moreover, we must note that the “white/pure and delightsome” passage that the prophet Joseph modified does not refer to the Lamanites, but to the Jews and Gentiles in the latter days who turn to Christ.”

lol…yes, but in Revelations, it does speak of blacks becoming white. So your justification holds no water. When it was clear blacks were not becoming white, the book of mormon HAD to be changed.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Many years ago when I was in NYC, we had an african american group who would be claiming that they were the true jews and chosen race. They often cited that verse to justify their claim. They would preach from the street corner condemning the white race.

I bring this up to show just how people interpret bible passages. The pure and delightsome passage in the book of mormon will always draw criticism because of what is on the internet. And it doesn’t seem to matter how mormons respond to the criticism. I don’t think that most minds will be changed. It is not in the DNA to do so. People will always believe what they want to believe. It is no different with those people who do not like the catholic faith because of this reason or that reason. No matter how catholics respond to the criticism, it doesn’t really change people’s minds.

But the reasoning that you posted was a good one.

No, it wasn’t. Had it been on any other topic but blacks becoming white, maybe. But the mere fact that Joe, when he wrote the book, thought blacks would become white, was later proven wrong (like he was about men on the moon), the LDS Church had no choice but to change the wording.

 

[SirThomasMore]

You said it very well! That is very true! Most people don’t have an open mind to try to understand, but we always have hopes that someone will make sense of it.

The most important thing for me is that I like to be challended and I learn from the criticism. As a matter of fact, I have learned a lot about Mormonism with the critics questioning. They make me research more and I gain more understanding and conviction of the truth. I just keep building pillars! They keep us on our toes, as Robert Millet said.

And that is your main problem. Joe forces you to keep on your toes, while the TRUE God in the TRUE Church, asks us to be on our knees…

 

[Stephen168]

If you prefer to use the word “authority”, then let’s go ahead and use it in a limited sense, and not in the full sense of the word, because that is how we understand it. This “limited or restricted authority” is nothing more than an inspiration or a portion of the light of God upon a group of men to accomplish His purposes. This same “limited or restricted authority” is also extended to the Muslims, Bhudist and any other organization on the earth. We also think the the Koran is an inspired book, but we know they have doctrines that are conflicting with the Bible and our own Theology.

Except Mormons don’t accept the Koran as sacred scripture, but do accept the New Testament as sacred scripture as given to them by the Catholic Church and translated by the Church of England.

As far as celebration, we do not have to celebrate the same way Catholics do, we reserve the prerrogative to celebrate our own way. You know that Jesus Christ was not born in December. However, we also join the world in celebrating the “adopted” date for the birth of Christ. It is a great time of the year. We all just love it! It is a time when people are more sensitive and more compassionate. That is great!

So the Mormon Church does not celebrate Christmas but individual Mormons do on the day given to them by the Catholic Church. And the Mormon Church accepts the date of Easter as given by the Catholic Church, but it isn’t celebrated much differently than any other Sunday.

To us the resurrection of Christ is the most important event in all history of mankind! That is part of our Theology. The way we celebrate it is not that relevant.

It is most important to Catholics too, that is why we have Lent for 6 weeks before, and Easter is a four day celebration.

 

[Mike2010]

I strongly agree!

I know a Hispanic man who converted to the LDS faith 12 years ago. He was never taught his Catholic faith by his parents who split up many years ago when he was six years old. He has been speaking with me. The Missionaries told him that the vision of our lady outside of the city of Mexico by Juan Diego was not true, that it was made up.

He countered with what about the vision that Joseph Smith had? Can I also question that vision? This is happening now. He is starting to ask questions he should have asked 12 years ago. He just did not know. Yesterday he gave me a beautiful picture of the crucified Christ in a Catholic Church. He is now beginning to question why the cross is not in his church. He has heard some of the reasons they give but is having a hard time with them. He told me he sees the joy of our salvation, the pain involved when he looks at the crucifix, the Cristo as he would say.

We also spoke about this continuing revelation and he says he does not agree with it. He sees what Jesus did as all we need to know regarding our salvation. Like a game that was won by Jesus and all of the revelation we receive is about this game that was won. That all we should be doing is going out speaking about the cost, the final score, the victory that took place for each of us.

He is asking what could possibly be added to what Jesus has done for us. Please pray for Jose as he takes this picture of our Crucified Lord , (he has more than one copy) to his Bishop to try and get it into the LDS Spanish Community here in Northern Utah.
In Cristo
Rich
www.utahmission.com

This situation is very common. I have a friend who was anon-denominational Christian and has recently decided to become mormon - it crushes me. When I talked to him about it he didn’t even know that mormons believe that their god was different than ours. He didn’t know that the mormon view of God was contrary to the Christian God in the Trinity.

People continue to be conned into becoming mormon when they don’t really even understand how much it contradicts actual Christian doctrine. I hope that some of my points that I made to him are seeds that he will think long and hard about.

 

[why_me]

You said it very well! That is very true! Most people don’t have an open mind to try to understand, but we always have hopes that someone will make sense of it.

The most important thing for me is that I like to be challended and I learn from the criticism. As a matter of fact, I have learned a lot about Mormonism with the critics questioning. They make me research more and I gain more understanding and conviction of the truth. I just keep building pillars! They keep us on our toes, as Robert Millet said.

Certainly being on this forum will keep you on your toes but this forum is not very challenging for the savvy mormon. It is really old hat since the same is repeated over and over again by the critics. But…if a mormon is a novice, it will force them to seek answers and learn from the experience. And that is always a good thing. You just need to remember that you will not change the minds of most critics on this forum. The most that will happen is that the more open minded catholic will see that mormons have reasons for their beliefs.