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mesenja
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They would have charged him with being a polygamist. But then again maybe not. I find it funny that you try and disqualify Joseph Smith for being a prophet by charging him with faults yet the Popes acted in a far worse manner. But of course your judgment doesn’t have to be impartial does it?
In a criminal trial proof beyond a reasonable doubt does not mean that your judgment of the facts is based on an absolute certainty. It means that after careful and impartial consideration of all the evidence,or lack of evidence using reason and common sense that the proof is of such a convincing character that you would be willing to rely and act upon it without hesitation.
There is such evidence for the Book of Mormon however no absolute proof that its claims are true. Prove by a clear and convincing standard that Jesus atoned for your sins? Some things including the claim that the Bible is the word of God can only be based on faith.
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Rbt_Southwell
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mesenja
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Hasn’t personal witness been made to you by former Catholics;various texts quoted or referenced to prove the falsity of this religion yet you persist in your boilerplate answer:Catholicism is true. Come on Robert I don’t find ex-Latter-day Saint missionaries turned Catholic as very good witnesses. I would hazard a guess that you don’t find anti-Catholics as credible witnesses either.
Only two quotations were given to prove that Latter-day Saint missionaries lie and the testimony of a former missionary turned Catholic. There was no evidence given from our Standard Works. There was no evidence given from General Conference that we are taught to lie by the prophets. No evidence given from our lesson manuals. No evidence given whatsoever except by the testimony of an ex-Mormon missionary who admitted that he formerly lied along with two quotes taken out of context.
Sorry Robert if my having a difference of opinion as to the conclusion of this evidence is seen by you as a non answer. I am capable of give and take. It just so happens that at this present moment I do not have the time or desire to do so. If my post wasn’t clear I will try and make it clear as crystal. I agree that I appeared to be contradictory in my actions by challenging Melanie for proof and then saying I do not debate. Carry on here and make as many half truths and distortions about my religion as you all see fit. I wont stop to challenge you. Hope that helps Robert.
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PaulDupre
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mesenja,
The bible has been proven to be an authentically ancient text. The bible’s people, places, languages, cultures, animals, foods, economic systems, etc. have been proven by extra-biblical sources to have existed. The bible is historical reality. The Book of Mormon has no such proof, nor any credible evidence to support it.
The LDS Church cannot even decide where the BoM narrative took place. If the story were true, there should be some evidence left that this huge, high-tech Nephite civilization actually existed. Heck, it was only 1600 years ago! That’s like last Tuesday in archaeological time. Jericho has been found and that is at least a thousand years older than Bountiful or Zarahemla.
The Book of Mormon claims that the Nephites produced steel weapons and tools by the millions. You can lose or destroy a lot of things, but you cannot lose or destroy the evidence of large steel-making operations. The by-products of steel manufacture are even more durable than the steel itself, and will last many thousands of years. Why has there never been a discovery of pre-Columbian slag heaps left behind by the steel-making Nephites? Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of bodies, steel and bronze weapons and armor left behind at the battle of Hill Cumorah.
Would you care to provide some concrete evidence to support the BoM? I was LDS for a long time and never saw or heard any, just a lot of personal “testimonies” and theoretical conjecture. Muslims have the same “testimony” about the Q’uran, but that doesn’t make it true, either.
There is nothing about Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon that would make me want to hang my salvation on either of them. Please, if you have any credible evidence of the Book of Mormon, enlighten us poor gentiles.
God bless you,
Paul
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mesenja
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Your argument against Joseph Smith is based on a double standard.
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dosdog
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The Pope never claimed 9 first visions -
Conclusion
From all available lines of evidence, therefore, Joseph’s 1838 official rendition of his First Vision story appears to be myth not history:
There was no revival anywhere in the Palmyra-Manchester, New York area in 1820.
The events as told by Joseph Smith will not fit into the time period between the 1824 revival and the 1830 publication of the Book of Mormon.
Joseph was welcomed, not persecuted by the Methodists.
In his 1832 account Joseph said it was by personal Bible study that he determined all the churches were apostate, while in his 1838 account he said it “never entered into my heart that all were wrong.”
In his 1832 version Joseph claimed to see only a vision of Christ and in his 1835 version Joseph told of the visit of an angel, while in the 1838 story the message came from the Father and the Son.
No one knew of today’s version of the First Vision until after Joseph dictated it in 1838, and no published source mentions it until 1842 (Ibid., pp. 30ff).
The conflicts and contradictions brought to light by the preceding historical evidence demonstrate that the First Vision story, as presented by the Mormon church today, must be regarded as the invention of Joseph Smith’s highly imaginative mind. The historical facts and Joseph’s own words discredit it.
— Wesley P. Walters
irr.org/mit/fvision.html
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Rbt_Southwell
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Rbt_Southwell
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dosdog
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quotations were given to prove that Latter-day Saint missionaries lie and the testimony of a former
Lies I Told as a Mormon Missionary
by Loren Franck
We’re Not Trying to Convert You
We’re the Only True Christians
We’re the Only True Church
We Have a Living Prophet
People Can Become Gods
You’re Born Again By Becoming a Mormon
False Testimony
I close with a few words about “testimony,” which is a missionary’s emergency cord. When I couldn’t rebut an antagonistic statement scripturally, I fell back on my testimony. For instance, while proselyting in Grand Forks, North Dakota, I was once asked where the Bible mentions the secret undergarments Mormons wear. Caught off guard, I admitted that the Bible says nothing about them. I could merely testify that God revealed the need for these garments through living prophets. But my testimony wasn’t based on scripture or other hard evidence. Rather, it was founded on personal revelation, which is extremely subjective. Essentially, my testimony was nothing more than a good feeling about the church and its teachings. In Mormon parlance, it was a “burning in the bosom.” But burning or not, it wasn’t from God.
mrm.org/topics/evangelism-issues/ten-lies-i-told-mormon-missionary
Lies I Told as a Mormon Missionary
by Loren Franck
We’re Not Trying to Convert You
We’re the Only True Christians
We’re the Only True Church
We Have a Living Prophet
People Can Become Gods
You’re Born Again By Becoming a Mormon
False Testimony
I close with a few words about “testimony,” which is a missionary’s emergency cord. When I couldn’t rebut an antagonistic statement scripturally, I fell back on my testimony. For instance, while proselyting in Grand Forks, North Dakota, I was once asked where the Bible mentions the secret undergarments Mormons wear. Caught off guard, I admitted that the Bible says nothing about them. I could merely testify that God revealed the need for these garments through living prophets. But my testimony wasn’t based on scripture or other hard evidence. Rather, it was founded on personal revelation, which is extremely subjective. Essentially, my testimony was nothing more than a good feeling about the church and its teachings. In Mormon parlance, it was a “burning in the bosom.” But burning or not, it wasn’t from God.
mrm.org/topics/evangelism-issues/ten-lies-i-told-mormon-missionary
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mesenja
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There was no revival anywhere in the Palmyra-Manchester, New York area in 1820.
The events as told by Joseph Smith will not fit into the time period between the 1824 revival and the 1830 publication of the Book of Mormon.
Joseph was welcomed, not persecuted by the Methodists.
In his 1832 account Joseph said it was by personal Bible study that he determined all the churches were apostate, while in his 1838 account he said it “never entered into my heart that all were wrong.”
In his 1832 version Joseph claimed to see only a vision of Christ and in his 1835 version Joseph told of the visit of an angel, while in the 1838 story the message came from the Father and the Son.
No one knew of today’s version of the First Vision until after Joseph dictated it in 1838, and no published source mentions it until 1842 (Ibid., pp. 30ff).
The conflicts and contradictions brought to light by the preceding historical evidence demonstrate that the First Vision story, as presented by the Mormon church today, must be regarded as the invention of Joseph Smith’s highly imaginative mind. The historical facts and Joseph’s own words discredit it.
— Wesley P. Walters
irr.org/mit/fvision.html
Dosdog instead of relying on the evidence of the late Presbyterian minister Wesley P. Walters why don’t you read all the First Vision accounts and make your own conclusion? They are not as contradictory as the anti-Mormon Wesley P. Walters makes them out to be.
Dosdog even if the conclusion of Wesley P. Walters is correct about Joseph Smiths’ First Vision accounts which I assure you that the evidence does not support it is still besides the point. Robert still based his argument on the fallacy of the double standard.
Just one parting question Dosdog if I may. Do you view anti-Catholic material as objective source material to be used for anyone interested in studying the Catholic faith?
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dosdog
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Joseph Smith was a Demonically Possessed Fraud
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hosemonkey
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I think that I asked him for that kind of proof in a previous post and he just ignored me. He ignored me and cannot produce such proof because that kind of proof does not exist. Full stop! The only evidence that exists is a case of mass heartburn or “burning in the bosom” by the gullible faithful. Prove me wrong and I will forever depart from this forum.
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mesenja
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When you don’t have an answer you can always rely on Ad hominim - Attacking the individual instead of the argument.
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dosdog
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Joseph Smith is still a Demonically Possessed FraudWhen you don’t have an answer you can always rely on Ad hominim - Attacking the individual instead of the argument.
In this treatise, Tertullian shows that it is completely dishonest for heretics to use the scriptures in argument with Christians. The reason is that they do not use them, but only abuse them. Praescriptio - a form of procedure based on length of possession - excludes the accuser at the opening of the process by showing that the case is vexatious. The origin and nature of heresy is discussed, and the point made (elaborating Irenaeus) that only the legitimate owners of the scripture - the churches founded by the apostolic writers and holding their views - have any right to use it in argument. He concludes by pointing out the evil effects of heresy in the life of the heretic. Throughout he pokes fun at the pretensions of the heretics
tertullian.org/works/de_praescriptione_haereticorum.htm
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mesenja
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The evidence that you gave me is laughable. You have presented as irrefutable evidence a statement buy a self confessed anti-Mormon that can not be backed up by anything other then his say so. Case in point his use of the terminology "Lying for the Lord ". It is an absolutely made up term. This anti-Mormon then gives his own opinion as proof of his own allegation. Finally this same anti-Mormon now enlists the aid of a former Bishop to give his testimony to this alleged practice.
- “Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion,”
- “It is clear,in my view,that Joseph Smith behaved in classic philosopher king fashion…”
- “Former Mormon bishop explains the collapse of his faith McCue said,…”
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Philothea53
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mesenja,
May I ask and receive the answer to one simple question?
What can you show as proof that the Book of Mormon/ D & C/ PGP is anything more than just the writings of Joseph Smith (and possibly firiends.?)
I am very well aware of the testimony of the witnesses. Do you have anything other than that? Something we can look at, touch, read, discuss…anything?
May I ask and receive the answer to one simple question?
What can you show as proof that the Book of Mormon/ D & C/ PGP is anything more than just the writings of Joseph Smith (and possibly firiends.?)
I am very well aware of the testimony of the witnesses. Do you have anything other than that? Something we can look at, touch, read, discuss…anything?
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mesenja
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Yes Philothea against my better judgment I will answer your request for evidence supporting the Book of Mormon/Pearl of Great Price and engage you in this exercise in futility. It must be that you asked so politely. Being that the Doctrine and Covenants claims to be the revelations of Joseph Smith I do not know of any way that you can verify this. As to evidence supporting the claims of the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price being ancient scripture yes there is such evidence. At the moment I have other matters on my agenda that will be taking up my time. I do not know when I will be able to reply to your request but it will not be for at least a couple of weeks. What happened to Zerinius? Did everybody here just gave up on him to provide any answers?
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dosdog
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A Professor Joshua Seixas was hired by Joseph Smith and his associates to leach them Hebrew. They originally hired another teacher who turned out to be very unsatisfactory, but they were determined to learn the language as well as they could. So, On November 21, 1835, they agreed to send someone to New York to find a Jew who was more qualified to teach them. On January 4, 1836, however, William E. M’Lellin and Orson Hyde were dispatched to the Hudson, Ohio, to find the right person. When M’Lellin returned on January 6, 1836, he reported that he had hired a teacher who was “highly celebrated as a Hebrew scholar, and proposes to give us a sufficient knowledge during the above term to start us reading and translating the language.” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 2:356). It was going to cost $320 for seven weeks, to have him teach forty “scholars.” He would arrive in about 15 days. Meanwhile, the group continued to study as best they could. On February 15, according to Joseph Smith’s History, they began “translating the Hebrew language, under the instruction of Professor Seixas, and he stated that we were the most forward of any class he ever instructed for the same length of time.” (2:396). It was this same Professor Seixas who published the Hebrew grammar they used. Seixas was apparently a professor at Oberlin College.
In 1834 Joshua Seixas published a little book titled Manual. Hebrew Grammar For the Use of Beginners, by J. Sexias, 2d ed. enlarged and improved. This was the manual that was used in the Kirtland school when Seixas came to teach Hebrew to Joseph Smith and his associates in 1836. In 1981 this manual was published in a facsimile edition by the Sunstone Foundation, Salt Lake City. It carried an introduction by Louis Zucker, entitled “Joseph Smith As a Student of Hebrew.”
nauvoo.com/nauvoo_beautiful.html
By 1842 Joseph Smith most likely had touched the subject of Kabbalah in several ways and versions, even if such contacts remain beyond easy documentation. During Joseph’s final years in Nauvoo, however, his connection with Kabbalah becomes more concrete. In the spring of 1841 there apparently arrived in Nauvoo an extraordinary library of Kabbalistic writings belonging to a European Jew and convert to Mormonism who evidently new Kabbalah and its principal written works. This man, Alexander Neibaur, would soon become the prophet’s friend and companion.
Neibaur has received little detailed study by Mormon historians, and his knowledge of Kabbalah has earned only an occasional passing footnote in Mormon historical work.121 Neibaur was born in Alsace-Lorraine in 1808, but during his later childhood the family apparently returned to their original home in eastern Prussia (now part of Poland). His father, Nathan Neibaur, was a physician and dentist, who family sources claim, was a personal physician to the Napoleon Bonapart and whose skill as a linguist made him of “great value” to Napoleon as an interpreter (claims perhaps inflated by posterity). Like his father, Alexander became fluent in several languages, including French, German, Hebrew, and later, English. He also read Latin and Greek. Family tradition claims that as the first child and eldest son, his father wished him to become a rabbi, and that the young Neibaur was begun in rabbincal training. However, at age seventeen he instead entered the University of Berlin to study dentistry, and completed his studies around 1828. Sometime shortly afterwards, he converted to Christianity and migrated to Preston, England. There he established a dental practice and married in 1833. In mid-summer 1837, Heber C. Kimball, Orson Hyde, and Joseph Fielding arrived in Preston. Neibaur had been troubled by several dreams about a mysterious book, and his first question for Joseph Smith’s apostles was whether they had a “book” for him–which of course they did. He was baptized with his family the next spring. On 5 February 1841 they departed for Nauvoo, arriving in Quincy, Illinois, on 17 April. Four days later Neibaur met Joseph Smith, and on 26 April he notes in his journal, “went to work for J. Smith.” Two day later he acquired a quarter-acre lot in Nauvoo, and on 1 June moved his family into their newly complete Nauvoo home on Water Street, a few blocks from Joseph Smith’s residence.122
Where and how Neibaur first came in contact with Kabbalah remains a mystery, though a careful evaluation of his history and personal travels offers a few hints. Given his father’s position, his childhood in western Poland, his studies in Berlin and his subsequent conversion to Christianity, some contact with a reservoir of Kabbalistic knowledge among Sabbatean or Frankist Jews should be considered.123 If he did indeed undertake rabbical studies in Poland prior to his university education, he could not have avoided some exposure to the subject. That Neibaur brought a knowledge of Kabbalah to Nauvoo has been mentioned in several studies of the period. For instance, Newel and Avery note in their biography of Emma Smith, "Through Alexander Neibaur, Joseph Smith had access to ancient Jewish rites called cabalism at the same time he claimed to be translating the papyri from the Egyptian mummies [which became his Book of Abraham]."124 That he not only knew something of Kabbalah, but apparently possessed a collection of original Jewish Kabbalistic works in Nauvoo, is however documented in material almost totally overlooked by Mormon historians
gnosis.org/jskabb3.htm
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PaulDupre
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mesenja,
We’ll all be anxiously awaiting your evidence for the Book of Mormon.
Be well,
Paul
We’ll all be anxiously awaiting your evidence for the Book of Mormon.
Be well,
Paul
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