Mormon FAQ!

[kellie]

zerinus,

Why would God look down at us, and say “Hmmm, looks like my church has strayed as no one replaced all 12 Apostles”, and then restore the church, and the 12 Apostles only in America?

Can you not see at all how hard it is for a Catholic living in Australia to take anything the Mormons do seriously, when Smith was American, and somehow God restored His Church only with Americans??

Why wouldnt God restore His Church worldwide, and make His 12 Apostles out of every nation?

The original 12 Apostles of course were only in the countries listed in the Bible, as other places werent discovered, such as Australia, back then in the times of Jesus.

So why would it just be America that gets to restore the church??

 

[zerinus]

Why would God look down at us, and say “Hmmm, looks like my church has strayed as no one replaced all 12 Apostles”, and then restore the church, and the 12 Apostles only in America?

Where do you think He should have restored it then, Australia?

Can you not see at all how hard it is for a Catholic living in Australia to take anything the Mormons do seriously, when Smith was American, and somehow God restored His Church only with Americans??

So you think Australians are more favourites than Americans?

Why wouldnt God restore His Church worldwide, and make His 12 Apostles out of every nation?

How do you propose He should have done that? Let me see: there are 194 nations in the world (192 of them members of the United Nations), and just Twelve Apostles to go round. So how do you decide which nation is going to get an Apostle and which don’t?

The original 12 Apostles of course were only in the countries listed in the Bible, as other places werent discovered, such as Australia, back then in the times of Jesus.

The original Twelve Apostles were all Jews—every one of them without an exception. They didn’t come from the “countries listed in the Bible”.

So why would it just be America that gets to restore the church??

So which country do you think the Restoration should have taken place in?

zerinus

 

[Montalban]

Okay you guys, I have become absolutely sick to death of having to answer the same questions millions and millions of times! So I have created a “Mormon FAQ” Blog to post my answers to the most FAQs, to save me the trouble of having to answer them millions and millions of times! Click on my signature below to go to the site. I will add more material to it as time and occasion permits. Enjoy!

zerinus

I’m glad that this Catholic forum’s allowed you to promote your own site (promoting your own faith).

Nothing in Acts 17:28; Ephesians 1:3; Hebrews 12:9 (which you cite) says anything about pre-existing beings.

 

[Montalban]

Where do you think He should have restored it then, Australia?

You got something against Australians? Has God?

So you think Australians are more favourites than Americans?

Lower crime rate. Perfect beaches. And an edible national symbol!

How do you propose He should have done that? Let me see: there are 194 nations in the world (192 of them members of the United Nations), and just Twelve Apostles to go round. So how do you decide which nation is going to get an Apostle and which don’t?

So the 12 Apostles preached to 194 nations at the UN?

The original Twelve Apostles were all Jews—every one of them without an exception. They didn’t come from the “countries listed in the Bible”.

Pretty early on the Bible was given to the Gentiles. And the message spread out from there, but during this spreading out, you simply believe in some ‘great apostasy’ and then God giving his book to some dude in rural hicksville, USA

Those 12 were chosen by Jesus and walked with him. Smith got the ‘tap on the shoulder’ that Jesus warned against! Jesus said ‘next time I come, everyone will know it’.

So which country do you think the Restoration should have taken place in?

zerinus

Why have a ‘restoration’? What was wrong with Jesus’ message? Why did Jesus pick people he’d know would ultimately fail?

And, all to wait an ‘accident’ of discovery of mystery tablets that suddenly disappeared as soon as they were ‘restored’!

 

[Montalban]

I don’t have questions; I just have good answers! He can call in here, and I will answer his questions if he likes!

zerinus

I thought that’s why you were promoting your blog - so you didn’t have to answer! Cool!

So God’s church failed, and the people kept on preaching and spreading Christianity around the world until some dude finds mystery rocks that only he can read!

 

[Montalban]

What do Mormons think of the church run by the descendants of Joseph Smith - that didn’t go off to Utah?

 

[kellie]

Where do you think He should have restored it then, Australia?

So you think Australians are more favourites than Americans?

How do you propose He should have done that? Let me see: there are 194 nations in the world (192 of them members of the United Nations), and just Twelve Apostles to go round. So how do you decide which nation is going to get an Apostle and which don’t?

The original Twelve Apostles were all Jews—every one of them without an exception. They didn’t come from the “countries listed in the Bible”.

So which country do you think the Restoration should have taken place in?

zerinus

I dont think any country should of been favoured, as I dont believe God would favour any country.

That is why I find the whole Mormon thing so unbelievable, same as paarsurreys religion with Jesus dying in India, that is only as he is from India, same as any of these new prophets, they only seem to favour one country.

 

[Montalban]

I dont think any country should of been favoured, as I dont believe God would favour any country.

That is why I find the whole Mormon thing so unbelievable, same as paarsurreys religion with Jesus dying in India, that is only as he is from India, same as any of these new prophets, they only seem to favour one country.

Good comparison.

I’d be like if I founded a religion I’d say he came to Sydney, not Melbourne, -]which sucks/-]

Like paarsurrey’s religion they have to invent an ‘apostasy’ of faith for there to be a ‘new’ prophet to come along. The Moslems did it. The Mormons did it.

 

[zerinus]

I dont think any country should of been favoured, as I dont believe God would favour any country.

That is why I find the whole Mormon thing so unbelievable, same as paarsurreys religion with Jesus dying in India, that is only as he is from India, same as any of these new prophets, they only seem to favour one country.

Do you have a good “no-man’s-land” in mind where you think God should have Restored His Church? I don’t know of many. How about the middle of the ocean? Nobody owns the ocean, so maybe that would have been a good place for Him to restore His Church. Silly me! Why didn’t think of that?

zerinus

 

[dosdog]

Do you have a good “no-man’s-land” in mind where you think God should have Restored His Church? I don’t know of many. How about the middle of the ocean? Nobody owns the ocean, so maybe that would have been a good place for Him to restore His Church. Silly me! Why didn’t think of that?

zerinus

1. Called by its followers “the New Prophecy”, this movement is known to us as Montanism after its founder Montanus, a convert to Christianity. Around the year 170 he began to proclaim to his fellow believers that he was a prophet, that he was the very mouthpiece of that Spirit which the Lord had promised would “teach all things and guide into all truth” (John 14:26; 16:13). Montanus was soon joined by two women, Priscilla and Maximilla who like him delivered oracles in a state of ecstacy, speaking not in their own persons but in that of the Holy Spirit.
2. Montanus and his companions represented a revival of the apocalyptic spirit and announced the forthcoming end of the world. The Lord was about to return, and the new Jerusalem would be set up in the vicinity of the town of Pepuza in Phrygia. As preparation for the end of all things they purified themselves and cut themselves loose from their attachments to society. The Phrygians, as they were frequently called, fasted longer and more elaborately than other Christians and discouraged marriage.
   theologywebsite.com/history/montanus.shtml

Montanism- , apocalyptic movement of the 2d cent. It arose in Phrygia (c.172) under the leadership of a certain Montanus and two female prophets, Prisca and Maximillia, whose entranced utterances were deemed oracles of the Holy Spirit. They had an immediate expectation of Judgment Day, and they encouraged ecstatic prophesying and strict asceticism. They believed that a Christian fallen from grace could never be redeemed. Prisca claimed that Christ had appeared to her in female form. When she was excommunicated, she exclaimed “I am driven away like the wolf from the sheep. I am no wolf: I am word and spirit and power.”
The belief that the prophecies of the Montanists superseded the doctrines proclaimed by the Apostles
education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/Montanis
newadvent.org/cathen/10521a.htm

 

[Philothea53]

Do you have a good “no-man’s-land” in mind where you think God should have Restored His Church? I don’t know of many. How about the middle of the ocean? Nobody owns the ocean, so maybe that would have been a good place for Him to restore His Church. Silly me! Why didn’t think of that?

zerinus

Except that Mormons believe that the America is the new Zion, that when Jesus returns he will return to a rather explicit location in the United States and Americans are a favored group.

 

[zerinus]

Except that Mormons believe that the America is the new Zion, that when Jesus returns he will return to a rather explicit location in the United States and Americans are a favored group.

Mormons certainly believe that the land of America is a favoured land; but not that the Americans are a “favoured group”. The Americans in the sight of God are no different from any other people. If they are righteous, they will be favoured of God; if not, they will not be. That is the deciding factor for everyone, not whether they are “Americans” or something else.

zerinus

 

[Montalban]

Mormons certainly believe that the land of America is a favoured land; but not that the Americans are a “favoured group”. The Americans in the sight of God are no different from any other people. If they are righteous, they will be favoured of God; if not, they will not be. That is the deciding factor for everyone, not whether they are “Americans” or something else.

zerinus

Does that include Canada?

 

[mesenja]

1. How are the missionaries trained to be deceitful?
2. What are some examples of how missionaries are being deceitful?
3. Are the returned missionaries that you have quotes from still in good standing in the Church?

 

[mesenja]

You get full marks for enthusiasm Zerinus,but in spite of all your efforts, I doubt that you will convince anyone but the very gullible or the very ignorant that Mormonism is at best a bogus religion or at worst a very large cult. Your own “church” has spent millions trying to prove even a tiny part of the Book of Mormon and have failed miserably. But, I guess everyone has to have a hobby.

So anyone that believes in the Book of Mormon is ignorant or gullible? This is not an argument. Name calling should be left behind in grade school where it belongs and has no place here.

 

[dosdog]

1. How are the missionaries trained to be deceitful?
2. What are some examples of how missionaries are being deceitful?
3. Are the returned missionaries that you have quotes from still in good standing in the Church?

Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith’s denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by “anti-Mormons” and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley’s dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine, Mormonism’s history seems replete with examples of lying. Common members see such examples as situations where lying is justified. For the Mormon, loyalty and the welfare of the church are more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light. This is part of the larger package of things that lead many to describe Mormonism as a cult. “Lying for the lord” is part of Mormonism’s larger deceptive mainstreaming tactics, and conversion numbers would drastically lower if important Mormon beliefs were fully disclosed to investigators.

mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

It is clear, in my view, that Joseph Smith behaved in classic philosopher king fashion, and that the Mormon “faithful history” policy discloses a group of modern philosopher kings who feel justified in telling pious lies. “Faithful history” is a form of Mormon censorship. It suppresses all information that does not encourage Mormons to be more obedient to current Mormon leaders. Hence, facts that strongly suggest Smith and other Mormon leaders are not trustworthy are airbrushed out of Mormon consciousness.mccue.cc/bob/spirituality.htm

Former Mormon bishop explains the collapse of his faith
McCue said, “I read Mormon history as the professional historians write it, and realized that my religious leaders had misled me as to how Mormonism started, and [recognized]&a pattern of Mormon leadership deception [that] goes back to Mormonism’s beginnings with Joseph Smith.”
“The suppressed aspects of Mormon history that most troubled me indicated many instances in which Mormon leaders have deceived both their followers and the public about important matters. Joseph Smith was the worst in this regard. His tendency to exaggerate or lie when in a tight spot bears a striking resemblance to the practices of shady stock promoters I have on occasion met relative to my legal practice,” the attorney stated.
“Mormon leaders at the local level are sincere and generally unaware of the issues I had raised,” said McCue. And he says that though he is critical of LDS leaders he knows they can be “genuinely loving.” “They believe God’s will requires that they mislead their followers,” he explained.
rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon164.html

 

[mesenja]

Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith’s denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by “anti-Mormons” and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley’s dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine, Mormonism’s history seems replete with examples of lying. Common members see such examples as situations where lying is justified. For the Mormon, loyalty and the welfare of the church are more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light. This is part of the larger package of things that lead many to describe Mormonism as a cult. “Lying for the lord” is part of Mormonism’s larger deceptive mainstreaming tactics, and conversion numbers would drastically lower if important Mormon beliefs were fully disclosed to investigators.

mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

It is clear, in my view, that Joseph Smith behaved in classic philosopher king fashion, and that the Mormon “faithful history” policy discloses a group of modern philosopher kings who feel justified in telling pious lies. “Faithful history” is a form of Mormon censorship. It suppresses all information that does not encourage Mormons to be more obedient to current Mormon leaders. Hence, facts that strongly suggest Smith and other Mormon leaders are not trustworthy are airbrushed out of Mormon consciousness.

mccue.cc/bob/spirituality.htm

Former Mormon bishop explains the collapse of his faith
McCue said, “I read Mormon history as the professional historians write it, and realized that my religious leaders had misled me as to how Mormonism started, and [recognized]&a pattern of Mormon leadership deception [that] goes back to Mormonism’s beginnings with Joseph Smith.”
“The suppressed aspects of Mormon history that most troubled me indicated many instances in which Mormon leaders have deceived both their followers and the public about important matters. Joseph Smith was the worst in this regard. His tendency to exaggerate or lie when in a tight spot bears a striking resemblance to the practices of shady stock promoters I have on occasion met relative to my legal practice,” the attorney stated.
“Mormon leaders at the local level are sincere and generally unaware of the issues I had raised,” said McCue. And he says that though he is critical of LDS leaders he knows they can be “genuinely loving.” “They believe God’s will requires that they mislead their followers,” he explained.

rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon164.html

We do not lie. I was never taught to lie. I know of no General Authority who ever condoned or taught that lying was acceptable. The term and practice of “lying for the Lord” is a complete fiction. Thank you for the URLs. However save me the time and bother of wading through these sites and trying to guess what you consider as proof that the missionaries are taught to lie by giving me specifics not generalities.

 

[Don_Hepler]

I quoted only what you said; “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”

---

I am not sure that a god can be created, for that matter. As far as I can tell ‘God’ is representative of something that always was, not of something created.

Moses was told, perhaps, that in Pharaohs eyes Moses was a god because of what God worked through Moses, - not that Moses was now created equal to an omnipotent God.

HELLo what are you all talking about??? I missed the question, I love confusion, and masses of confusion is even better, but most of all, logic is better than confusion. I think I am going view another page. Get back with me when you have a stable thought.

 

[dosdog]

HELLo what are you all talking about??? I missed the question, I love confusion, and masses of confusion is even better, but most of all, logic is better than confusion. I think I am going view another page. Get back with me when you have a stable thought.

This culture of deceit goes back to the very roots of Mormonism. It began with Joseph and Brigham, and is still alive and well today. In fact, it was Joseph who introduced the notion that God himself Lies and encourages others to do so.

Tactic # 1

When a problem question is posed, the simplest response is to avoid the question. This can be done by not answering the question asked but by answering a different question.

This tactic has been employed for scores of years, and because it’s such a very well recognised form of deception or avoidance used by politicians, criminals, etc, it tends not to work with much success anymore. Even the gullible can sense something is amiss, go on to process what has been said at a sub-concious level, and then later arrive at the point where they are aware that the question was not answered, therefore feeling dissatisfied.

Tactic # 1 is an enduring favourite among the Mormon elite.

As Boyd K. Packer once said, in quoting Henry D. Moyle, “I never pay any attention to the questions… If he doesn’t ask the right questions [the questions I like to be asked], I give answers to questions he should have asked.”

Packer added, “That short statement from President Moyle held great wisdom, and on a number of occasions I have been rescued in difficult situations by referring back in my mind to his comment.”

[source: Boyd K. Packer, p.63, Teach Ye Diligently]

The use of this tactic is also encouraged at other levels in the Mormon organisation. Robert Millet, for example, encourages this type of deception to be practiced by Mormon missionaries.

youtube.com/watch?v=UMJvqB…

Tactic # 2

If tactic 1 does not work, the next step is often to simply tell a lie.

And whether it’s:

a. Joseph Smith denying to Emma and to the public, that he was having sex with multiple girls and women (both married and unmarried),

b. The Stake fortune teller (aka patriarch) telling your friends that you’ve cancelled your membership because you were an adulterer - that’s what was actually said about me, or

c. Gordon B. Hinckley lying to the FBI about his involvement in the Mark Hoffman affair

There are plenty of examples of lying among the Mormon elite.

You may wish to add to this thread by documenting the lies and deceptions from the Mormon holy men that you are aware of.

Tactic # 3

Another way to avoid difficult questions- and one which is constantly employed by the Mormon elite without the batting of an eyelid - is the absolute refusal to answer the question as if it had never been asked.

One example of this can be found in relation to Bob McCue’s experience.

Bob McCue sent a letter to prophet seer and revelator, Jeffrey R. Holland, which talked about why Bob cancelled his membership.

Holland replied to the letter, but ignored the entire content of the letter. I don’t have a copy of Holland’s reply and would appreciate a copy if anyone has a copy.
mormoncurtain.com/topic_generalauthorities.html

 

[mesenja]

This culture of deceit goes back to the very roots of Mormonism. It began with Joseph and Brigham, and is still alive and well today. In fact, it was Joseph who introduced the notion that God himself Lies and encourages others to do so.

Tactic # 1

When a problem question is posed, the simplest response is to avoid the question. This can be done by not answering the question asked but by answering a different question.

This tactic has been employed for scores of years, and because it’s such a very well recognised form of deception or avoidance used by politicians, criminals, etc, it tends not to work with much success anymore. Even the gullible can sense something is amiss, go on to process what has been said at a sub-concious level, and then later arrive at the point where they are aware that the question was not answered, therefore feeling dissatisfied.

Tactic # 1 is an enduring favourite among the Mormon elite.

As Boyd K. Packer once said, in quoting Henry D. Moyle, “I never pay any attention to the questions… If he doesn’t ask the right questions [the questions I like to be asked], I give answers to questions he should have asked.”

Packer added, “That short statement from President Moyle held great wisdom, and on a number of occasions I have been rescued in difficult situations by referring back in my mind to his comment.”

[source: Boyd K. Packer, p.63, Teach Ye Diligently]

The use of this tactic is also encouraged at other levels in the Mormon organisation. Robert Millet, for example, encourages this type of deception to be practiced by Mormon missionaries.

youtube.com/watch?v=UMJvqB…

Tactic # 2

If tactic 1 does not work, the next step is often to simply tell a lie.

And whether it’s:

a. Joseph Smith denying to Emma and to the public, that he was having sex with multiple girls and women (both married and unmarried),

b. The Stake fortune teller (aka patriarch) telling your friends that you’ve cancelled your membership because you were an adulterer - that’s what was actually said about me, or

c. Gordon B. Hinckley lying to the FBI about his involvement in the Mark Hoffman affair

There are plenty of examples of lying among the Mormon elite.

You may wish to add to this thread by documenting the lies and deceptions from the Mormon holy men that you are aware of.

Tactic # 3

Another way to avoid difficult questions- and one which is constantly employed by the Mormon elite without the batting of an eyelid - is the absolute refusal to answer the question as if it had never been asked.

One example of this can be found in relation to Bob McCue’s experience.

Bob McCue sent a letter to prophet seer and revelator, Jeffrey R. Holland, which talked about why Bob cancelled his membership.

Holland replied to the letter, but ignored the entire content of the letter. I don’t have a copy of Holland’s reply and would appreciate a copy if anyone has a copy.
mormoncurtain.com/topic_generalauthorities.html

When you get past the insulting rhetoric,the unsubstantiated allegations,the lies (or is it ignorance) and distortions maybe then we can have a proper dialogue.