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SteveVH
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What do you mean he bowed to political pressure? He said “Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s.” His answer was astoundingly profound and just. How is this bowing to political pressure?
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debbie_h
Guest
While I can’t speak for them, we all went silent. I certainly was not comfortable with that idea & somewhat spiritually torn that I despise that teaching but am I sinning in not accepting that teaching.
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iepuras
Guest
I cannot speak for all LDS women, but polygamy is always a difficult subject. I was also a single woman in the LDS church until the age of 30 (to put it into context, an unmarried woman over the age of about 22-23 is considered on old maid), so I have a unique perspective. After I graduated from college single, I considered myself more or less unmarriageable, despite any hope I had to find an LDS husband. I went to the temple and as part of the washing and anointing ceremony, I was promised that no blessing would be denied me in eternity so long I was faithful. For many years, I thought I would never marry and relied on this promise - that I would have a husband in the Celestial Kingdom, but I would be a plural wife. As a woman, it makes you feel pretty worthless. I started to understand the need for polygamy within the LDS theology but never really accepted it. I often thought I would rather be single than be wife #462.
When I have talked to other LDS women about the polygamy issue, they dread the day when it is brought back. They hate it. A few of them admit they could leave the LDS church over it. Most of them deal with it by telling themselves that Heavenly Father would never require them to do anything in the Celestial Kingdom that would make them unhappy so they won’t be required to live the law of polygamy. Of course, they don’t think about what Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants says to Emma regarding not being happy with polygamy. Destruction anyone?
It is such a painful topic, the LDS church has stayed away from talking about the doctrine of polygamy as much as they can. In the Teachings of the Prophets manuals used in Priesthood and Relief Society, the multiple wives of the most notorious polygamist prophets (Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith) are not mentioned. The life history of those prophets is deceptive. In fact, two of Brigham Young’s wives are mentioned but the second wife was not mentioned until the first wife’s death was mentioned. There was a change for this year’s manual which is on Lorenzo Snow. The section on his life describes how he married two sisters on the same day. Of course his other wives were not mentioned. This is a huge but subtle change. I wonder if LDS leadership is trying to slowly get members used to the idea of polygamy again. Maybe this is a testing of the waters.
When I was a teenager, I knew that the one issue that would cause me to leave the LDS church was polygamy. It ended up being true. Once I learned the truth about polygamy, I was easy for me to see the truth about Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
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RebeccaJ
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I have Mormon polygamous ancestors. When I was a kid, my parents took us to a family reunion that was for the descendants of this family. When we arrived, we filled out our name tags, with the additional instruction to write the name of the wife we are descended from.
Everyone there was very proud of our polygamous ancestors. Such a question as “how did the ladies” feel was not a consideration. It is just how it was, and the Mormons I knew (particularly my family) saw it as fulfilling God’s commandments, the same as any other commandment. Something to be done joyfully, even when you don’t agree.
That being said, there is a family story regarding one of the wives, my ggggg-grandmother, who’s two sisters were already married to the same man. He approached her, and asked her to marry him. She ran off and hid at a friend’s house. Eventually, as the story goes, he rode his horse to the friend’s house and found her sitting on the porch. Asked her if she was ready to marry him yet, she said yes, got on his horse and the rest is history.
Me, I think it is creepy as hell.
Generally, what I have seen are Mormon who romanticize polygamy, those who would practice it if they were commanded to do so, and those who don’t want to think about and will worry about it when/if that time comes.
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iepuras
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Yes, creepy. My mom is a convert and my dad’s ancestors were not polygamists, so I never experienced this. I can see that the descendants would be proud. The Mormon church really romanticizes the pioneers, including the polygamists. They just ignore the bad parts of it - castrations of young men, marriages of young women to much older men that for all intents and purposes were forced marriages, wives and children who were essentially abandoned by the husband to support themselves, etc. I can see that Mormons who are descended from polygamists would be more likely to accept it. Post-WW2 converts and their descendants who don’t have the pioneer heritage would have a much harder time accepting it.
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andrewstx
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Obviously I am no Mormon any more because I do not accept Mormonism’s conclusions and theology.
I do resent your hint that all celibates, monks, brothers, friars, and religious sisters are homosexual. I just did not marry due to medical issues that make it impossible for me to procreate.
As I said before and you seemed to ignore not everyone is the same as everyone else. And I am not a homosexual, period.
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RebeccaJ
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Adam and Eve were blessed by God. Married couples are gifted with children.
1 Corin 11:11 has nothing to do with marriage, but the relationship between the sexes (married or not), and as a metaphor for the relationship of the Church to Christ.
LDS cannot reconcile a requirement for marriage with the NT.
Matthew 19:9-12:
“And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery; and he who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry.” But he said to them, “Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it.”
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LivingWaters7
Guest
I think you misunderstood him. He wasn’t implying that. He was responding to this portion of your question-“Is the reason that Mormons so object to homosexuals, they want everyone to be temple married so that all can reach the highest degree of heaven?”
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andrewstx
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My apologies Gazelam for misunderstanding you
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gazelam
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andrewstx,
Please accept my humblest apologies if something I wrote offended you. My intent was not to make any accusations or hints, but rather to pass along some information related to the topics about which you inquired.
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Starrsmother
Guest
I just wanted to say how much I admire Andrewstx. I don’t know you, but it takes real courage to leave a faith that you were raised in as a child and I recognize that fact! You must have faced so many obstacles with family, childhood friends and even the fact that we all do tend to incorporate at least most of what our parents teach us at “their knee” in a matter of speaking, as being true! You should write a book on your process of conversion–I’d buy it!
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PaulDupre1
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I second that!!I just wanted to say how much I admire Andrewstx. I don’t know you, but it takes real courage to leave a faith that you were raised in as a child and I recognize that fact! You must have faced so many obstacles with family, childhood friends and even the fact that we all do tend to incorporate at least most of what our parents teach us at “their knee” in a matter of speaking, as being true! You should write a book on your process of conversion–I’d buy it!
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AdvanceAlways
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Thanks for answering everyone’s questions. I’d like to posit something to you here regarding the passages you have cited here. Mormons get this portion of Corinthians completely wrong.
Celestial = heavenly, terrestrial = earthly. You have to read all of chapter 15 in context. Chapter 15 is a Resurrection discourse. This is a reference to our heavenly bodies (resurrected) will be different from our earthly bodies. This has nothing to do with different Heavens. Our Heavenly (Celestial) bodies are differing in glory than our earthly (terrestrial) bodies.
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RonniSanMiguel
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Thanks so much for posting this, AdvanceAlways. I read all of it and indeed, it is all about our bodies, not where our bodies will end up. I will have to point this out to my Mormon cousin. He and I always get into religious debates. He says he will make sure I end up in the Celestial realm as his servant. Oh goody!
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SteveVH
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Good luck with that, and I mean that sincerely. I have gone back and forth on those seemingly very clear words with Mormons more than a few times and it is the same old thing. Forget about reason and just remember your “testimony”. It is truly unbelievable. I would be interested in the outcome of your conversation.Thanks so much for posting this, AdvanceAlways. I read all of it and indeed, it is all about our bodies, not where our bodies will end up. I will have to point this out to my Mormon cousin. He and I always get into religious debates. He says he will make sure I end up in the Celestial realm as his servant. Oh goody!
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RonniSanMiguel
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He is traveling for work right now. I maybe will send him an email about this. Last time I saw this particular cousin before he left for his job, I was extolling the many virtues and blessings of Catholicism and intrigued him when I told him the only place you can find the Hanukkah story is in the Catholic bible. Trying to plant some seeds and trying to get him to think. He’s convinced he’s going to be a god someday, ruling and creating. He’s very invested in this fantasy, so I doubt he will want to hear more evidence that his views are erroneous.
I do what I can though.
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SteveVH
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As Mother Teresa said, “we are not called to be successful, we are called to be faithful.” Much prayer is necessary, as well as patience.He is traveling for work right now. I maybe will send him an email about this. Last time I saw this particular cousin before he left for his job, I was extolling the many virtues and blessings of Catholicism and intrigued him when I told him the only place you can find the Hanukkah story is in the Catholic bible. Trying to plant some seeds and trying to get him to think. He’s convinced he’s going to be a god someday, ruling and creating. He’s very invested in this fantasy, so I doubt he will want to hear more evidence that his views are erroneous.
I do what I can though.
God bless.
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