Mormon 'Scripture' on those brothers: Jesus and Lucifer

[Rbt_Southwell]

Here it is.

What do our mormon friends and readers think of their ‘scripture’ here? Can you explain this for us?

"We need a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, "Whom shall I send? Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, ‘Here am I, send me.’ " [Abraham 3:27]

"Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, ‘Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it.’ " [Moses 4:1]

I don’t see anything like THIS in the Scriptures!

What does this mean???

Robert

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Sorry if I shocked any of our mormon friends.

This is from the Book of Mormon. I have 8 different editions spanning 63 years (prior to the new ‘translation’). They all state the same thing.

So, wuzzup wid dat??

Robert

 

[hosemonkey]

Sorry if I shocked any of our mormon friends.

This is from the Book of Mormon. I have 8 different editions spanning 63 years (prior to the new ‘translation’). They all state the same thing.

So, wuzzup wid dat??

Robert

“Wuzzup wit dat?” is dat the BOM is a hallucination from the mind of the ever-popular Joe Smith, the stone-peepin’ horn-dog from backwoods New York.

 

[why_me]

This should explain it better:

en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ_is_the_brother_of_Satan

This is from the 1986 Ensign. Scroll down the page until you find an explanation of Jesus and Satan:

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1986.htm/ensign%20june%201986.htm/i%20have%20a%20question.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0

 

[RAR]

This should explain it better:

en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ_is_the_brother_of_Satan

This is from the 1986 Ensign. Scroll down the page until you find an explanation of Jesus and Satan:

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1986.htm/ensign%20june%201986.htm/i%20have%20a%20question.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0

WhyMe… LDS doctrine does away with traditional teaching on angels. In traditional doctrine God created angels and humans. These are separate beings, but in LDS doctrine there is no distinction because of the “spirit children.”

We were once angels and are now humans and may become Gods? This is a theological and philosophical impossibility.

RAR

 

[why_me]

WhyMe… LDS doctrine does away with traditional teaching on angels. In traditional doctrine God created angels and humans. These are separate beings, but in LDS doctrine there is no distinction because of the “spirit children.”

We were once angels and are now humans and may become Gods? This is a theological and philosophical impossibility.

RAR

No, mormons claim that we were once spirit children of god, sent to earth to gain our physical bodies. Satan because of his rebellion lost that blessing of a physical body. We were not angels but spirit children in mormon understandings.

 

[RAR]

No, mormons claim that we were once spirit children of god, sent to earth to gain our physical bodies. Satan because of his rebellion lost that blessing of a physical body. We were not angels but spirit children in mormon understandings.

I understand that WhyMe, but I think you’re splitting hairs. Spirit children and angels sound the same to me. Are you saying then that there are no angels in LDS theology?

And I believe you missed my point, which is that in LDS theology Christ and Satan are the same created being, which denies the divinity of Jesus. Traditional Christianity makes it clear that Christ is God and that angels are a creation separate from humanity.

RAR

 

[RebeccaJ]

No, mormons claim that we were once spirit children of god, sent to earth to gain our physical bodies. Satan because of his rebellion lost that blessing of a physical body. We were not angels but spirit children in mormon understandings.

---

Catholics believe that Angels are a separate creation from man. Angels were created by God to serve Him, worship Him and glorify Him.

Mormons believe that Angels are human souls that are either in a sort of semi-glorified state, like Moroni, or souls from God’s god that were designated as servants for the resurrected human who was exalted and became God the Father.

---

Catholics believe that all souls, or spirits of us humans, are created by God at the moment of conception.

Mormons believe that all souls, or spirits of us humans, were born of a heavenly mother (a goddess) before the creation of the earth. As such, we’re all brothers and sisters in spirit, from before the creation of the earth.

---

Catholics believe that Jesus is God Incarnate. Eternally begotten, eternally God.

Mormons believe that Jesus was the eldest of the pre-existent spirits. God sent Jesus’ spirit to earth in a human body in order to be tested. Jesus passed his test and so he was exalted, thus becoming a god.

---

Catholics believe that Satan is a fallen Angel.

Mormons believe that Satan is a fallen human soul, a spirit brother of Jesus and a spirit brother of you and I.

 

[East_Anglican]

It appeaers that Mormons believe that this world is in a mess due to some cosmic family dispute.

Total madness!

 

[RAR]

---

Catholics believe that Angels are a separate creation from man. Angels were created by God to serve Him, worship Him and glorify Him.

Mormons believe that Angels are human souls that are either in a sort of semi-glorified state, like Moroni, or souls from God’s god that were designated as servants for the resurrected human who was exalted and became God the Father.

---

Catholics believe that all souls, or spirits of us humans, are created by God at the moment of conception.

Mormons believe that all souls, or spirits of us humans, were born of a heavenly mother (a goddess) before the creation of the earth. As such, we’re all brothers and sisters in spirit, from before the creation of the earth.

---

Catholics believe that Jesus is God Incarnate. Eternally begotten, eternally God.

Mormons believe that Jesus was the eldest of the pre-existent spirits. God sent Jesus’ spirit to earth in a human body in order to be tested. Jesus passed his test and so he was exalted, thus becoming a god.

---

Catholics believe that Satan is a fallen Angel.

Mormons believe that Satan is a fallen human soul, a spirit brother of Jesus and a spirit brother of you and I.

Wow, awesome, Rebecca. Thanks for the clear and easy to understand comparison. I should print this out so I won’t forget.

Quite interesting that the LDS believe a created being can transition to become another.

RAR

 

[RebeccaJ]

Wow, awesome, Rebecca. Thanks for the clear and easy to understand comparison. I should print this out so I won’t forget.

Quite interesting that the LDS believe a created being can transition to become another.

RAR

Yeah, I recently read a description by C. S. Lewis in the book “Mere Christianity”, about the word “begotten”. To paraphrase what he wrote.

Every creature that God has created begets it’s own kind. Humans beget humans. Horses beget horses. Cats beget cats.

God created all of this of course.Humans, horses, cats, etc.

But Christ, He is Begotten. In the clearest and most logical sense of the word “begotten”, God begets God. Not, as mormons believe, that God begets humans. NO! God creates humans.

To Christians, who were raised to know nothing else I wonder if it is a statement of the obvious. For someone who was raised mormon, where the belief is that God beget a human who then became a god, this was a WOW moment. The most logical and sensible thing about the nature of God and Jesus I have ever read.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

But Christ, He is Begotten. In the clearest and most logical sense of the word “begotten”, God begets God. Not, as mormons believe, that God begets humans. NO! God creates

Rebecca,

I learn so much about our Faith on these threads and you are one of my favorites! Excellent post!

God bless you.

Robert

 

[holdencaulfield]

Here it is.

What do our mormon friends and readers think of their ‘scripture’ here? Can you explain this for us?

"We need a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, "Whom shall I send? Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, ‘Here am I, send me.’ " [Abraham 3:27]

"Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, ‘Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it.’ " [Moses 4:1]

I don’t see anything like THIS in the Scriptures!

What does this mean???

Robert

It’s just insane Mormon witchcraft. Don’t look to much into it, or you too will be seduced into the Mormon religion.

 

[East_Anglican]

Some of the things Mormons believe are so blasphemous, I feel sick reading about them.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Some of the things Mormons believe are so blasphemous, I feel sick reading about them.

And I feel very well for leaving it.

 

[holdencaulfield]

And I feel very well for leaving it.

 

[Zakuska]

WhyMe… LDS doctrine does away with traditional teaching on angels. In traditional doctrine God created angels and humans. These are separate beings, but in LDS doctrine there is no distinction because of the “spirit children.”

We were once angels and are now humans and may become Gods? This is a theological and philosophical impossibility.

RAR

You’d be more convincing if it weren’t for Vatican II…

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm

Or for the ECFs…

Historical Christianity has ever maintained that men can in fact become gods. Augustine and the Cappadocian Fathers where the first to place any limits upon the final deified state of man, but they continued to embrace that men can in fact become gods in some real sense. The Western Church never has defined for us what “becoming gods” entails and it lost favor except in the highest spiritual/academic venues. The children of the Reformation so neglected this truth that many have claimed it is unbiblical and unhistorical. But in the last 20-30 years this is changing. The Eastern Church never lost site of this truth, but Gregory Palamas in his attempt to align it with other doctrines LDS would call erroneous again weakened the final state of man. He did however continue to maintain the men can become gods.

To begin I think I will provide a long list of quotes from ECF who taught men can become gods. These are pre-Augustine so you will not find attempts to limit the final state of man to something less than all the term “gods” implies. We should remember that LDSs and presumably ECF do not believe that men can become equal to God. We should remember that no LDS and presumably no ECF do not embrace the phase, “one God” in some way.

The next thing we should realize is that Joseph Smith did not read the ECF. He grew up in a Protestant environment where everyone knew that men could not become gods. He either created this and was lucky to find that it was a restoration of ancient Christianity or he was inspired.

Here goes (BTW, most of these come from a Catholic friend of mine who sent them to me, none are from FARMS or FAIR or Jeff L.):

 

[Zakuska]

Ignatius - To the Ephesians 4.2 It is therefore profitable for you to be in blameless unity, that ye may also be partakers () of God always.

Justin - 1st Ap. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue.(ANF 1.170).

Justin - Dial. 124 …thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming “gods”, and of having power to become sons of the Highest.(ANF 1.262).

Justin - Discourse To The Greeks 5 The Word exercises an influence which does not make poets: it does not equip philosophers nor skilled orators, but by its instruction it makes mortals immortal, mortals god. (ANF 1.272)

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 3.6.1 “God stood in the in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods.” He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church. (ANF 1.419).

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 3.19.1 He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God. For by no other means could we have attained to incorruptibility and immortality, unless we had been united to incorruptibility and immortality.(ANF 1.448). [See also 3.6.1]

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.Pref.4/ 4.1.1 …there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption. Since, therefore, this is sure and steadfast, that no other God or Lord was announced by the Spirit, except Him who, as God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption.(ANF 1.463).

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.33.4 … how can they be saved unless it was God who wrought out their salvation upon earth? Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has [first] passed into man?(ANF 1.507).

Irenaeus - Adv. 4.20.4 Now this is His Word, our Lord Jesus Christ, who in the last times was made a man among men, that He might join the end to the beginning, that is, man to God.(ANF 1.488).[see also 4.20.5-6]
Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.38.3-4 His wisdom [is shown] in His having made created things parts of one harmonious and consistent whole; and those things which, through His super-eminent kindness, receive growth and a long period of existence, do reflect the glory of the uncreated One, of that God who bestows what is good ungrudgingly. For from the very fact of these things having been created, [it follows] that they are not uncreated; but by their continuing in being throughout a long course of ages, they shall receive a faculty of the Uncreated, through the gratuitous bestowal of eternal existence upon them by God. …man, a created and organized being, is rendered after the image and likeness of the uncreated God… we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods…He shall overcome the substance of created nature. For it was necessary, at first, that nature should be exhibited; then, after that, that what was mortal should be conquered and swallowed up by immortality, and the corruptible by incorruptibility, and that man should be made after the image and likeness of God, having received the knowledge of good and evil.(ANF 1.521-522).

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.39.2 How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that thou, at the outset, shouldest hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God.(ANF 1.522-523).

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.Pref …the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself.(ANF 1.526).

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.1.1 Since the Lord thus has redeemed us through His own blood, giving His soul for our souls, and His flesh for our flesh, and has also poured out the Spirit of the Father for the union and communion of God and man, imparting indeed God to men by means of the Spirit, and, on the other hand, attaching man to God by His own incarnation, and bestowing upon us at His coming immortality durably and truly, by means of communion with God…(ANF 1.527).[see also 5.36.3]

Theophilus - To Autolycus 27 Was man made by nature mortal? Certainly not. Was he, then, immortal? Neither do we affirm this. …He was by nature neither mortal nor immortal. For if He had made him immortal from the beginning, He would have made him God. … keeping the commandment of God, he should receive as a reward from Him immortality, and should become God.(ANF 2.105).
Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation 1 …the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God.(ANF 2.174).

 

[Zakuska]

Clement of Alexandria - The Instructor 3.1 It is then, as appears, the greatest of al lessons to know one’s self. For if one know himself, he will know God; and knowing God, he will be made like God…But that man with whom the Word dwells does not alter himself, does not get himself up: he has the form which is of the Word; he is made like to God…and that man becomes God, since God so wills. Heraclitus, then, rightly said, “Men are gods, and gods are men.”(ANF 2.271).

Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 4.23 On this wise it is possible for the [true] Gnostic already to have become God. “I said, Ye are gods, and sons of the highest.” (ANF 2.437).

Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 6.14 By thus receiving the Lord’s power, the soul studies to be God; …To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord himself taught.(ANF 2.506).

Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 7.10 …they are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Saviour.(ANF 2.539).

Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 7.13 What, then, shall we say of the [true] Gnostic himself? “Know ye not”, says the apostle, “that ye are the temple of God?” The [true] Gnostic is consequently divine, and already holy, God-bearing and God-borne. (ANF 2.547).

Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 7.16 But he who has returned from this deception, on hearing the Scriptures, and turned his life to the truth, is, as it were, from being a man made a god.(ANF 2.551)

Tertullian - Adv. Hermogenes 5 Well, then, you say, we ourselves possess nothing of God. But indeed we do, and shall continue to do—only it is from Him that we receive it, and not from ourselves. For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be among those of whom He declared, “I have said, Ye are gods,” and “God standeth in the congregation of the gods.” But this comes of His own grace, not from any property in us, because it is He alone who can make gods.(ANF 3.480).

Tertullian - Adv. Marcion 25 Now, although Adam was by reason of his condition under law subject to death, yet was hope preserved to him by the Lord’s saying, “Behold, Adam is become as one of us;” that is, in consequence of the future taking of the man into the divine nature.(ANF 3.317).

Tertullian - Adv. Hermogenes 5 Well, then, you say, we ourselves at that rate possess nothing of God. But indeed we do, and shall continue to do—only it is from Him that we receive it, and not from ourselves. For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be among those of whom He declared, “I have said, Ye are gods,” and “God standeth in the congregation of the gods.” But this comes of His own grace, not from any property in us, because it is He alone who can make gods. (ANF 3.480).

Hippolytus - Refutation of All Heresies 5.29 The Creator did not wish to make him a god, and failed in His aim; nor an angel,—but a man. For if He had willed to make thee a god, He could have done so. Thou hast the example of the Logos. His will, however, was, that you should be a man, and He has made thee a man. But if thou art desirous of also becoming a god, obey Him that has created thee.(ANF 5.151).

Hippolytus - Refutation of All Heresies 5.30 And thou shalt be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved by lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease. For thou hast become God: for whatever sufferings thou didst undergo while being a man, these He gave to thee, because thou wast of mortal mould, but whatever it is consistent with God to impart, these God has promised to bestow upon thee, because thou hast been deified, and begotten unto immortality. …For the Deity, (by condescension,) does not diminish aught of the dignity of His divine perfection; having made thee even God unto His glory!(ANF 5.153).

Hippolytus - Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead.(ANF 5.236).

 

[Zakuska]

Origen - Contra Celsus 3.28 …they see that from Him there began the union of the divine with the human nature, in order that the human, by communion with the divine, might rise to be divine, not in Jesus alone, but in all those who not only believe, but enter upon the life which Jesus taught, and which elevates to friendship with God, and communion with Him every one who lives according to the precepts of Jesus.(ANF 4.475).

Origen - Comm. on John 2.2,3. …the Savior says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true God;” but that all beyond the Very God is made God by participation in His divinity…And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other gods beside Him, of whom God is the God, as it is written, “The God of gods, the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became gods, for He drew from God in generous measure that they should be made gods, and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true God, then, is “The God”, and those who are formed after Him are gods, images, as it were of Him the prototype. …Now it is possible that some may dislike what we have said representing the Father as the one true God, but admitting other beings besides the true God, who have become gods by having a share of God. They may fear that the glory of Him who surpasses all creation may be lowered to the level of those other beings called gods. We drew this distinction between Him and them that we showed God the Word to be to all the other gods the minister of their divinity.(ANF 10.323).

Origen - De Principiis 4.1.36 Every one who participates in anything, is unquestionably of one essence and nature with him who is partaker of the same thing…the nature of Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit, of whose intellectual light alone all created things have a share, is incorruptible and eternal, it is altogether consistent and necessary that every substance which partakes of that eternal nature should last for ever, and be incorruptible and eternal, so that the eternity of divine goodness may be understood also in this respect, that they who obtain its benefits are also eternal.(ANF 4.381) [see also Origen - De Principiis 3.6.1,3 (ANF 4.344-345]

Origen - De Principiis 4.1.32 As now by participation in the Son of God one is adopted as a son, and by participating in that wisdom which is in God is rendered wise, so also by participation in the Holy Spirit is a man rendered holy and spiritual. For it is one and the same thing to have a share in the Holy Spirit, which is (the Spirit) of te Father and the Son, since the nature of the Trinity is one and incorporeal. And what we have said regarding the participation of the soul is to be understood of angels and heavenly powers in a similar way as of souls, because every rational creature needs a participation in the Trinity. (ANF 4.379).

Origen - Adv. Celsus 3.28 …they see that from Him [Christ] there began the union of the divine with the human nature, in order that the human, by communion with the divine, might rise to be divine, not in Jesus alone, but in all those who not only believe, but enter upon the life which Jesus taught, and which elevates to friendship with God and communion with Him every one who lives according to the precepts of Jesus. (ANF 4.475).