Mormon 'Scripture' on those brothers: Jesus and Lucifer

[holdencaulfield]

The only place Ive ever seen this written down is in an unoffical Biogbraphy of Joseph Fielding Smith.

PS. A man with out a woman nor a woman without a man can become a God. They are two halfs of a whole. (Ie One Flesh) They are Gods… because they cvan reproduce.

Read nmore here: scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76/58#58

You didn’t answer his question.

 

[Zakuska]

That doesn’t mean a god.

It Doesn’t?

'elohiym

1. (plural)
   a) rulers, judges
   b) divine ones
   c) angels
   d) gods
2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
   a) god, goddess
   b) godlike one
   c) works or special possessions of God
   d) the (true) God
   e) God

cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H0430&Version=kjv

Show me record of it being changed. And again a son of God, just shows that we are people in favor of God.

Deut. 32: 8 KJV
8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

The oldest Manuscripts read:

Deut. 32: 8 KJV
8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the sons of God.

faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hildebrandt/OTeSources/05-Deuteronomy/Text/Articles/Heiser-Deut32-BS.htm

“You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings.” (Psalm 8:5)

Being immortal does not make one a god. We all know that humans have an immortal soul.

And souls are often refered to as Angels.

Its all over the dialog thats what Justin Proves to the Jew… over and over again: (I’ll list the ones I can)

CHAPTER L – IT IS PROVED FROM ISAIAH THAT JOHN IS THE PRECURSOR OF CHRIST.

And Trypho said, “You seem to me to have come out of a great conflict with many persons about all the points we have been searching into, and therefore quite ready to return answers to all questions put to you. **Answer me then, first, how you can show that there is another God besides the Maker of all things; and then you will show,[further], that He submitted to be born of the Virgin.” **

I replied, “Give me permission first of all to quote certain passages from the prophecy of Isaiah, which refer to the office of forerunner discharged by John the Baptist and prophet before this our Lord Jesus Christ.”

“I grant it,” said he.

Then I said, "Isaiah thus foretold John’s forerunning: ‘And Hezekiah said to Isaiah, Good is the word of the Lord which He spake: Let there be peace and righteousness in my days.’ And, ‘Encourage the people; ye priests, speak to the heart of Jerusalem, and encourage her, because her humiliation is accomplished. Her sin is annulled; for she has received of the Lord’s hand double for her sins. A voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare the ways of the Lord; make straight the paths of our God. Every valley shall be filled up, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough way shall be plain ways; and the glory of the Lord thall be seen, and all flesh shall see the salvation of God: for the Lord hath spoken it. A voice of one saying, Cry; and I said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass has withered, and the flower of it has fallen away; but the word of the Lord endureth for ever. Thou that bringest good tidings to Zion, go up to the high mountain; thou that bringest good tidings to Jerusalem, lift up thy voice with strength. Lift ye up, be not afraid; tell the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord comes with strength, and[His] arm comes with authority. Behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him. As a shepherd He will tend His flock, and will gather the lambs with[His] arm, and cheer on her that is with young. Who has measured the water with[his] hand, and the heaven with a span, and all the earth with[his] fist? Who has weighed the mountains, and[put] the valleys into a balance? Who has known the mind of the Lord? And who has been His counsellor, and who shall advise Him? Or with whom did He take counsel, and he instructed Him? Or who showed Him judgment? Or who made Him to know the way of understanding? All the nations are reckoned as a drop of a bucket, and as a turning of a balance, and shall be reckoned as spittle. But Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts sufficient for a burnt-offering; and all the nations are considered nothing, and for nothing.’ "

 

[holdencaulfield]

(Definition of god on Dictionary.com)

1. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
2. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
3. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
4. A very handsome man.
5. A powerful ruler or despot.

As you can see god is often used as a term to show power, not divinity.

 

[holdencaulfield]

It Doesn’t?

'elohiym

1. (plural)
   a) rulers, judges
   b) divine ones
   c) angels
   d) gods
2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
   a) god, goddess
   b) godlike one
   c) works or special possessions of God
   d) the (true) God
   e) God

cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H0430&Version=kjv

My point is many writers used this figuratively as most religions at the time were polytheistic.

Deut. 32: 8 KJV
8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

The oldest Manuscripts read:

Deut. 32: 8 KJV
8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the sons of God.

faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hildebrandt/OTeSources/05-Deuteronomy/Text/Articles/Heiser-Deut32-BS.htm

It means the same thing. People in favor of God.

And souls are often refered to as Angels.

where?

 

[Zakuska]

(Definition of god on Dictionary.com)

As you can see god is often used as a term to show power, not divinity.

But why would I use a Mordern Dictionary? And not a Lexecon of the hebrews themselve?

 

[Zakuska]

My point is many writers used this figuratively as most religions at the time were polytheistic.

Including the Jews before Josiah came along and killed everyone.

 

[Zakuska]

No he was saying the humans now know the difference between good and evil as God does.

St. John refers to us a children of God, because yes God created us. That does not mean that we are gods. It is just a phrase used to show people in God’s favor. Look it up, it’s in the Old Testament.

Again, God promises us that if we remain faithful we will have a place in Heaven with Him. He does not say that we will become gods. He says that people who die will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, not become gods.

I havent seen such a good tap dance since fred astaire

Are you denying that “Children of God/Joint Heirs with Christ” are not infact called “gods”? Are you sure you want tell Jesus his Interpretation of scripture is wrong?

 

[holdencaulfield]

"And Trypho said, “You seem to me to have come out of a great conflict with many persons about all the points we have been searching into, and therefore quite ready to return answers to all questions put to you. Answer me then, first, how you can show that there is another God besides the Maker of all things; and then you will show,[further], that He submitted to be born of the Virgin.”

I can see, why you interpreted this wrong. St. Justin Martyr was merely explaining the Trinity to this person, not promoting polytheism.

Here is another work of St. Justin Martyr.

But he was not the only man initiated in the knowledge of God; for Sophocles also thus describes the nature of the only Creator of all things, the One God:

There is one God, in truth there is but one,
Who made the heavens and the broad earth beneath,
The glancing waves of ocean, and the winds;
But many of us mortals err in heart,
And set up, for a solace in our woes,
Images of the gods in stone and brass,
Or figures carved in gold or ivory;
And, furnishing for these, our handiworks,
Both sacrifice and rite magnificent,
We think that thus we do a pious work.

(St. Justin Martyr: On the Sole Government of God)

 

[holdencaulfield]

Including the Jews before Josiah came along and killed everyone.

Yes many Jews were polytheistic, this is in defiance of what God said however.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I havent seen such a good tap dance since fred astaire

Are you denying that “Children of God/Joint Heirs with Christ” are not infact called “gods”? Are you sure you want tell Jesus his Interpretation of scripture is wrong?

Yes we as Children of God are often called “gods”, it doesn’t mean that we are. My point is that humans attain no divinity after death.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Because the NIV Bible I am using was not written in Hebrew, but in Modern English.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Please answer my questions. I believe they were:

Post #40

Post #41

Post #44

Thanks.

 

[Zakuska]

Sounds more like the LDS articles of Faith and description of the Godhead:

1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

That Also follows Pauls… Un-Trinitarian… description of him:

1 Cor 8
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Paul didn’t say Christ was GOD here… but Lord. Theres also the fact that in this discourse Justin uses Gen 24 to prove there are TWO YHWHs spoken of in the OT:

CHAPTER LV – TRYPHO ASKS THAT CHRIST BE PROVED GOD, BUT WITHOUT METAPHOR. JUSTIN PROMISES TO DO SO.

And Trypho answered, “We shall remember this your exposition, if you strengthen[your solution of] this difficulty by other arguments: but now resume the discourse, and show us that the Spirit of prophecy admits another God sides the Maker of all things, taking care not to speak of the sun and moon, which, it is written, God has given to the nations to worship as gods; and oftentimes the prophets, employing this manner of speech, say that **‘thy God is a God of gods, and a Lord of lords,’ adding frequently, ‘the great and strong and terrible[God].’ For such expressions are used, not as if they really were gods, but because the Scripture is teaching us that the true God, who made all things, is Lord alone of those who are reputed gods and lords./.b] And in order that the Holy Spirit may convince of this, He said by the holy David, ‘The gods of the nations, reputed gods, are idols of demons, and not gods;’ and He denounces a curse on those who worship them.”

And I replied, "I would not bring forward these proofs, Trypho, by which I am aware those who worship these[idols] and such like are condemned, but such[proofs] as no one could find any objection to. They will appear strange to you, although you read them every day; so that even from this fact we understand that, because of your wickedness, God has withheld from you the ability to discern the wisdom of His Scriptures; yet[there are] some exceptions, to whom, according to the grace of His long-suffering, as Isaiah said, He has left a seed of salvation, lest your race be utterly destroyed, like Sodom and Gomorrah. Pay attention, therefore, to what I shall record out of the holy Scriptures, which do not need to be expounded, but only listened to.

CHAPTER LVI – GOD WHO APPEARED TO MOSES IS DISTINGUISHED FROM GOD THE FATHER.

"Moses, then, the blessed and faithful servant of God, declares that He who appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre is God, sent with the two angels in His company to judge Sodom by Another who remains ever in the supercelestial places, invisible to all men, holding personal intercourse with none, whom we believe to be Maker and Father of all things; for he speaks thus: ‘God appeared to him under the oak in Mature, as he sat at his tent-door at noontide. And lifting up his eyes, he saw, and behold, three men stood before him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the door of his tent; and he bowed himself toward the ground, and said;’ “(and so on " ‘Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord: and he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward the adjacent country, and beheld, and, lo, a flame went up from the earth, like the smoke of a furnace.’” And when I had made an end of quoting these words, I asked them if they had understood them.

And they said they had understood them, but that the passages adduced brought forward no proof that there is any other God or Lord, or that the Holy Spirit says so, besides the Maker of all things.

Then I replied, “I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures,[of the truth] of what I say, that there is,** and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things–above whom there is no other God****–wishes to announce to them.” And quoting once more the previous passage, I asked Trypho, “Do you think that God appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mature, as the Scripture asserts?”

He said, “Assuredly.”

“Was He one of those three,” I said, “whom Abraham saw, and whom the Holy Spirit of prophecy describes as men?”

He said, “No; but God appeared to him, before the vision of the three. Then those three whom the Scripture calls men, were angels; two of them sent to destroy Sodom, and one to announce the joyful tidings to Sarah, that she would bear a son; for which cause he was sent, and having accomplished his errand, went away.”

This WHOLE dialog with Trypho the Jew is to show that “God is not Numerically one”… but are many gods united in will. Under the one true God.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Zakuska:

I hope you see the errs in your ways. I invite you into Christianity. I hope you will accept this invitation because God loves you, and it hurts Him when you sin.

 

[Zakuska]

Im already in Christianity…

I invite you to enlarge yourself in it.

Why do you forbid to become part of HIS church…

“The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints”

I replied again, “If I could not have proved to you from the Scriptures that one of those three is God, and is called Angel, because, as I already said, He brings messages to those to whom God the Maker of all things wishes[messages to be brought], then in regard to Him who appeared to Abraham on earth in human form in like manner as the two angels who came with Him, and who was God even before the creation of the world, it were reasonable for you to entertain the same belief as is entertained by the whole of your nation.”

“Assuredly,” he said, “for up to this moment this has been our belief.”

Then I replied, “Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavour to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things,–numerically, I mean, not[distinct] in will. For I affirm that He has never at any time done anything which He who made the world–above whom there is no other God–has not wished Him both to do and to engage Himself with.”

And Trypho said, “Prove now that this is the case, that we also may agree with you. For we do not understand you to affirm that He has done or said anything contrary to the will of the Maker of all things.”

 

[holdencaulfield]

Sounds more like the LDS articles of Faith and description of the Godhead

Sorry the reason for this is that you don’t understand the Holy Trinity.
This is a common mistake for many people. Let me use what early Christians said about it, to explain it to you.

“So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.” (The Athanasion Creed)

 

[holdencaulfield]

Im already in Christianity…

I invite you to enlarge yourself in it.

Christians only believe in one God. That is one of the core tenets of the Christian Faith.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Please answer my questions. I believe they were:

Post #40

Post #41

Post #44

Thanks.

 

[Zakuska]

Christians only believe in one God. That is one of the core tenets of the Christian Faith.

The Saducees and Pharasees also only beleived in “One God” and Christ warned us of their doctrines.

Christ refered to some one other than himself even in his Ressurected state as “the one true God.”

John 20
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[holdencaulfield]

The Saducees and Pharasees also only beleived in “One God” and Christ warned us of their doctrines.

Christ refered to some one other than himself even in his Ressurected state as “the one true God.”

Again, you don’t understand the Holy Trinity. Did you read my earlier post? If you would like me to better explain the Holy Trinity to you, I would be more than happy.