Mormon 'Scripture' on those brothers: Jesus and Lucifer

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rbt_Southwell
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Zakuska said:
Hmmm so Joseph read a book that was locked up in the vatican Library 200+ miles away… How exactly?
Click to expand...
That wasn’t my point he copied many things from the King James Version of the Bible at the time word for word.
 
holdencaulfield said:
1864 Nov. 15—A year later, Apostle Smith
seemed to be describing the vision in a more traditional
way: “When the Lord appeared to Joseph
Smith…He [Joseph] thus describes the incident: ‘In
the spring of 1820…I saw a pillar of light…I saw
two personages…This is my beloved son, hear
him.’” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, pp.1-2)
Click to expand...
Funny…there are other accounts that consistantly identify who appeared to him…

1831 sermon by the Prophet reported by Lorenzo Snow
1833 remarks by the Prophet reported by John Alger
1834 sermon by the Prophet reported by Joseph Curtis and Edward Stevenson
1835 missionary statements reported by Samuel Richards
1837 sermon by the Prophet reported by Mary Horne
1839 interview with the Prophet’s parents reported by Wandle Mace
1840 missionary pamphlet published by Orson Pratt
1842 missionary pamphlet published by Orson Hyde
1843 sermon by the Prophet reported by Levi Richards
1843 interview with Joseph Smith published in the Pittsburgh Gazette
1844 interview with the Prophet reported by Alexander Neibaur

Heres the 1839 Wandle Mace quote:
Wandle Mace met joseph Smith in 1839, and became a friend of the parents of Joseph. Wandle wrote about his interactions with the Smith family:
Click to expand...
In these conversations, Mother Smith related much of their family history. She said their family must have presented a peculiar appearance to a stranger, as they were seated around the room, father, mother, brothers, and sisters, all listening with the greatest interest to Joseph, as he taught them the pure principles of the gospel as revealed to him by angels, and the glorious visions he beheld, as he saw the Father and the Son descend to earth. She said: "During the day our sons would endeavor to get through their work as early as possible, and say,‘Mother, have supper early, so we can have a long evening to listen to Joseph.’ Sometimes Joseph would describe the appearance of the Nephites, their mode of dress and warefare, their implements of husbandry, etc., and many things he had seen in vision. Truly ours was a happy family, although persecuted by preachers, who declared there was bo more vision, the canon of scripture was full, and no more revelation was needed. 35
Click to expand...
35 Hyrum Andrus, They Knew the Prophet (Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft, 1974), p. 116, emphasis added.
Click to expand...
 
Zakuska said:
Debateble.

Even the OT says Gods word had a beginning as will as an end.
Click to expand...
From what I know of the Mormon doctrine, you believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as being separate gods.
 
Yes…
“gods” (Little G)

But they are one “God” big G in their Godhead.

And like the scripoture says… there is only “One true God” ie The Father of us all including Jesus.
 
Zakuska said:
Yes…
“gods” (Little G)

But they are one “God” big G in their Godhead.

And like the scripoture says… there is only “One true God” ie The Father of us all including Jesus.
Click to expand...
I’m trying to understand your beliefs. So that’s very similar to the Hindu belief that all of the gods are one spirit of life force (Bhrama)?
 
Well I dont know Hindu so I cant really say.

I’ll link to the offical site: mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/

And then I really have to run… Im late getting home and my wife is going to kill me.

I’ll try to logon latter and answer the oustanding questions. #40 #41 #42
 
holdencaulfield said:
Explain this to me. This seems like a contradiction to me at least.

This seems like one God to me. Lets look else where.

Oops looks like a big contradiction. Could you please explain this to me. Don’t cite something else, just explain it to me.
Click to expand...
Its not in the least… because dont the scriptures call all those who are joined to God. god as well. Even his children. (Psalsm 82:6)

So the Bible also calls God the God of gods. And it instructs all these other gods who God is god of to worship him. You cant very well instruct an inanimate Object to worship God now can you?
 
Zakuska said:
Its not in the least… because dont the scriptures call all those who are joined to God. god as well. Even his children. (Psalsm 82:6)
Click to expand...
Funny that you mention this verse. I was just looking at it myself.

“I said, You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High. But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.” (Psalm 82:6-7)

This shows how humans believe themselves to be gods however they are not because like everyone else, they will die. The Psalm after words states how we are all at the mercy of God.

“Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all nations are your inheritance.” (Psalm 82:8)
 
holdencaulfield said:
Funny that you mention this verse. I was just looking at it myself.

“I said, You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High. But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.” (Psalm 82:6-7)

This shows how humans believe themselves to be gods however they are not because like everyone else, they will die. The Psalm after words states how we are all at the mercy of God.

“Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all nations are your inheritance.” (Psalm 82:8)
Click to expand...
Aaaa… thats not how the early Christians such as Justin interpreted it… see my earlier posts. (See Posts #17, #18, #19, #20, #21, #22)

Also Christ used the verse to defend himself against the Pharasees who were going to Stone him… because he was making himself equal to God. If the verse is speaking of “humans who think they are gods” then it makes no sense for Christ to use the verse in defense of his Divinity. Nor does it explain why the Pharasees where going to stone him but then where unarmed by their own scripture.

John 10
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

What you are advocating is breaking scripture, and stoning Christ along with the Pharasees.

Another thing… telling a Human he is going to “Die like Himself” is a little redundant… dontcha think?
 
Zakuska said:
So you’re calling God a Liar?

Gen. 3: 22
22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

John must be a Liar too…

1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Sounds like you have lost all HOPE… that God is able to fuffill his promises. To MAKE us his Children and Joint Heirs with Christ. (Aka gods) or as Athanaias says: " God became man to make man god"
Click to expand...
you misunderstand me. of course they aren’t liars. you don’t seem to grasp the true meaning of what they are telling you here. these scriptures are EXACTLY what is meant by the beatific vision. My hope is well founded in the one true eternal God. yours in based on an exalted man being your literal father in the hope that you can literally “grow” into adult godhood and take your place amongst the myriad other exalted men organizing matter into worlds and populating them with spirit children in an endless cycle of sin and atonement. tell me who the savior of elohims world was who dies for HIS sins?
 
the LDS prophets who told us he worked out his salvation in fear and trembling. how do you think he became a God?
 
CFR…

DId not Christ do it all without sin? Why not his father since Christ does say “He does nothing but what he has SEEN his father do before him”?
 
because LDS teaching on eternal progression says otherwise. or are you saying that only those without sin like Christ will be exalted?
 
in case you needed references:

*“My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same. And when I get to my kingdom [godhood], I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself.” * Joseph Smith general conference Nauvoo, April 6, 1844

" Some people are troubled over the statements of the Prophet Joseph Smith… The matter that seems such a mystery is the statement that our Father in heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man. This is one of the mysteries… The Prophet taught that our Father had a Father and so on. Is not this a reasonable thought, especially when we remember that the promises are made to us that we may become like him?" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp.10, 12).
 
If God was once a man (like Jesus) who progressed sinlessly to exaltation, then the doctrine of eternal progression indicates that there are two kinds of deity “out there”: gods (like Elohim and Jesus) who led sinless lives and who were saviors of their own planets and gods like you and me who sinned, were redeemed by their own savior gods, and who were then elevated to godhood themselves. That seems to follow logically from what you are proposing Zak.

But that sidesteps the real issue: there is ample scriptural evidence (as you point out) that we can be gods (theosis) in the small “g” sense: through Christ’s redemption, we can take on his perfect, holy, and immortal nature- we will be “gods”. There is ZERO scriptural evidence for Joseph Smith’s imaginative, yet erroneous, elaboration of this doctrine. We will NOT become “Gods” and take on the Father’s power, might, and majesty, and end up creating worlds and populating them with our own spirit offspring who will worship us as their as their God. This is heretical nonsense.

There is only one God, eternal and unchangable, who never was a man, most certainly does not dwell on a planet near Kolob, but transcends space and time and has always been God.

NS
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top