Mormon 'Scripture' on those brothers: Jesus and Lucifer

[Zakuska]

Sounds to me like you’re trying to say, “I don’t know that we teach that.” If you want to see it written in some other places, you can start with the LDS website.

Be my guest… by all means… show me one “Official” pronouncment saying such… on the LDS website.

You claimed it… now Show your references.

 

[Zakuska]

Again, you are taking this way out of context. By gods he meant symbolically. All Christians at the time believed in Monotheism.

Symbolically Gods?



All Christians?

Hmmm then why where they battling the Gnostic Christians if ALL christians beleived in Monotheism?

Why DiId Justin Call Christ a “Second God”? Why Did Athanasius?

You guys are getting better at tap dancing around the issues than Fred Estare!

He was saying that if God can call mortal un-divine humans gods, then He can call himself God.

That is not how they interpreted it.

Pslams 82 comes Directly out of the Uragitic texts where the Head God EL sits on his throne and Judges among his 70 DIVINE sons.

Its whats known is the “Divine Council”… here… Don’t take a Heatan Gentiles of a Mormons word for it.

Listen to what the Bible experts are saying:
thedivinecouncil.com/

No this was God’s way of rebuking the idea that men can become God.

Satan Tells men that they Cant become Like their Father. And keep his commandments. God calls his Children “gods”, and gives them power to resist Satan. Which God are you really following?

 

[holdencaulfield]

I don’t think anybody is saying that Mormonism is bad, or that Mormons will spend eternity gnashing their teeth in the eternal lake of fire, or any of that stuff. I think the message that people are trying to convey is that Mormonism is not a Christian faith for the same reason that Judaism and Islam are not Christian faiths. For example, the following quotes from Brigham Young:

"How are you going to get your resurrection? You will get it by the President of resurrection, and that is Joseph Smith, Jun. Hear it all ye ends of the earth; if you ever enter into the kingdom of God it is because Joseph Smith let you go there. This will apply to Jews and Gentiles, to the bond, and the free; to friends and foes; no man or woman in this generation will get a resurrection and be crowned without Joseph Smith saying so. The man who was martyred in Carthage Jail, State of Illinois, holds the keys of life and death to this dispensation…”

“From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up of things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are - I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent.”

Sorry dude, but that’s NOT Christianity by any stretch of the imagination. Christians believe that salvation comes from Jesus Christ, NOT Joseph Smith. Christians do NOT believe that secret handshakes and passwords are required to get into heaven; give me a break, heaven’s not a tree-fort in the backyard. You can knock yourself out quoting scripture, but I can assure you that no first century Christian or Church Father ever taught THAT kind of stuff. Salvation comes from Jesus alone; Joseph Smith and sophomoric Masonic rituals have nothing to do with it. I don’t mean to be disrespectful, nor to say that Mormons don’t largely live what we would consider to be Christian lives (as do lots of Jews, Buddhists, etc.), but it is not a Christian faith and trying to promote it to people as such is patently ridiculous

Nice :extrahappy: :dancing: :clapping:

 

[Zakuska]

Quite true. Also since all the things the Early Church Fathers say agree with what the Bible says, and what the Catholic Church teaches today, we can see that no apostasy occurred.

What Like the Text of the Bible never Changing?

                                                                                                     112

JOHANN J. WEITSTEIN

One of the most controversial figures in the ranks of biblical scholar-
ship in the eighteenth century was J.J. Wettstein (1693-1754). At a
young age Wettstein became enthralled with the question of the text
of the New Testament and its manifold variations, and pursued the
subject in his early studies. The day after his twentieth birthday, on
March 17, 1713, he presented a thesis at the University of Basel on
"The Variety of Readings in the Text of the New Testament.” Among
other things, the Protestant Wettstein argued that variant readings
“can have no weakening effect on the trustworthiness or integrity of
the Scriptures.” The reason: God has “bestowed this book once and
for all on- the world as an instrument for the perfection of human
character. It contains all that is necessary to salvation both for belief
and conduct.” Thus, variant readings may affect minor points in
scripture, but the basic message remains intact no matter which read-
ings one notices 17

---

THE QUEST FOR ORIGINS 113

In 1715 Wettstein went to England (as part of a literary tour) and
was given full access to the Codex Alexandrinus, which we have al-
ready heard about in relation to Bentley. One portion of the manu-
script particularly caught Wettstein’s attention: it was one of those
tiny matters with enormous implications. It involved the text of a key
passage in the book of 1 Timothy.

The passage in question, 1 Tim. 3:16, had long been used by advo-
cates of orthodox theology to support the view that the New Testa-
ment itself calls lesus God. For the text, in most manuscripts, refers to
Christ as “God made manifest in the Hesh, and justified in the Spirit.”
As I pointed out in chapter 3, most manuscripts abbreviate sacred names
(the so-called nomina sucra), and that is the case here as well, where the
Greek word God (ΘΕΟΣ) is abbreviated in 'two letters, theta and
sigma (ΘΣ), with a line drawn over the top to indicate that it is an ab-
breviation. What Wettstein noticed in examining Codex Alexandri-
nus was that the line over the top had been drawn in a different ink
from the surrounding words, and so appeared to be from a later hand
(i.e., written by a later scribe). Moreover, the horizontal line in the
middle of the first letter, Θ, was not actually a part of the letter but .
was a line that had bled through from the other side of the old vellum.
In other words, rather than being the abbreviation (theta—sigma) for
“God” (ΘΣ), the word was actually an omicron and a sigma (ΟΣ), a
different word altogether, which simply means “who.” The original
reading of the manuscript thus did not speak of Christ as “God made
manifest in the flesh” but of Christ "who was made manifest in the
flesh.” According to the ancient testimony of the Codex Alexandri-
nus, Christ is no longer explicitly called God in this passage.

As Wettstein continued his investigations, he found other passages
typically used to affirm the doctrine of the divinity of Christ that in
-fact represented textual problems; when these problems are resolved ·
on text-critical grounds, in most instances references to ]esus’s divinity
are taken away. This happens, for example, when the famous Iohannine
Comma (1 John 5:7-8 ) is removed from the text. And it happens in a

The Catholic Church is directly responsible for altering the Holy scriptures… and we all know what John Says about that (Rev 22)

Don’t beleive me the Text has been changed?

1 Tim 3:16
Undeniably great is the mystery of devotion, Who 7 was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed to the Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory.

Footnotes
7 [16] Who: the reference is to Christ, who is himself “the mystery of our devotion.” Some predominantly Western manuscripts read “which,” harmonizing the gender of the pronoun with that of the Greek word for mystery; many later (eighth/ninth century on), predominantly Byzantine manuscripts read “God,” possibly for theological reasons.

Thes Bazyntine Texts are where the KJV BIble comes from.

The Apostasy did indeed happen.

 

[Zakuska]

Quite true. I think Joseph Smith had quite a fun time stealing peoples wives.

Stealing? From what I read in the Histories… these other men Married them off to Joseph Smith. No need for Steaaling.

You’re right. In fact I prayed for this Mormon and asked St. Justin Martyr to pray for him, because he seemed to have so much fun taking his words out of context.

You should really Ready His DIalog with Trypho. Its about his Conversion Story to Christianity. You would think he had met a Mormon Missionary?!

I gave a tall in Sacrament Meeting about Justin. They congregation loved it!

I think their church (cult) is already two feet into Hell.

Matt 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

True St. John did say that the anti-Christ had many of the same characteristics of Christ, however was a lier.

Yep and Joseph Smith Never Denied Christ had come in the flesh… so there goes the idea that he was “Anti-Christ”. Oops.

 

[Zakuska]

It is. That’s quite true. So is Judaism. Last time I looked Monotheism is a big deal in Christianity, not polytheism.

Judaism wasnt monotheistic either… until Josaih and his redactors came back from Exile and found a “magic book” in the ruins of the temple. And then set about morphing the Jews into a Monotheistic mish mash.

 

[Zakuska]

Good one, that satanic ritual you do is nothing like Baptism. Nice Try though.

Satanic Ritual?

Hmmm Its good to know all those early Christians where performing Satanic Rituals.b

At the beginning of the fifth century Epiphanius reports:

From Asia and Gaul has reached us the account [tradition] of a certain practice, **namely that when any die without baptism among them, they baptize others in their place and in their name, so that, rising in the resurrection,** they will not have to pay the penalty of having failed to receive baptism, but rather will become subject to the authority of the Creator of the World. For this reason this tradition which has reached us is said to be the very thing to which the Apostle himself refers when he says, "If the dead rise not at all, what shall they do who are baptized for the dead?"135

It is significant to find this practice surviving in those outlying places where, as Irenaeus points out, the pure old Christian doctrine was best preserved.136 As to the rest of the church, Epiphanius explains:

Others interpret the saying [1 Corinthians 15:29] finely [kalos], claiming that those who are on the point of death if they are catechumens [candidates for baptism] are to be considered worthy, in view of the expectation of baptism which they had before their death. They point out that he who has died shall also rise again, and hence will stand in need of that forgiveness of sins that comes through baptism.137

Epiphanius is reporting of the WIDE spread practice of Baptising by Proxy for unbaptized dead in the church from from Gaul to Jerusalem.

Glad to know the Apostle Paul was perfomring a Stanic Ritual. (1 Cor 15:29)

 

[holdencaulfield]

I don’t think anyone really wants to debate with you anymore. We all know you are taking this all out of context. So whats the point in arguing. We know what the Scripture and Early Church Fathers mean, so we’re not going to listen to you lies.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

I don’t think anyone really wants to debate with you anymore. We all know you are taking this all out of context. So whats the point in arguing. We know what the Scripture and Early Church Fathers mean, so we’re not going to listen to you lies.

Holden;

Some of us have been talking via PMing about this new z-clone.

This Z guy is beyond understanding. He quotes out of context and sometimes he [feign shock here: he’s a mormon] makes up the quotation.

We decided to shun him and pray he lightens up.

Robert

 

[holdencaulfield]

Holden;

Some of us have been talking via PMing about this new z-clone.

This Z guy is beyond understanding. He quotes out of context and sometimes he [feign shock here: he’s a mormon] makes up the quotation.

We decided to shun him and pray he lightens up.

Robert

Oh, you should have PMed me :crying: jk jk. I agree, actually he is worse than z, he is beyond reason. Ok shunning starts now.

 

[RC_Matt]

Be my guest… by all means… show me one “Official” pronouncment saying such… on the LDS website.

You claimed it… now Show your references.

From the LDS website:
Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
2. They will become gods.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.
4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have–all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: "The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments.

Quotes from the prophet Brigham Young:

“The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.”

“Some people have supposed that the doctrine of plural marriage was a sort of superfluity, or nonessential to the salvation of mankind. In other words, some of the Saints have said, and believe that a man with one wife, sealed to him by the authority of the Priesthood for time and eternity, will receive an exaltation as great and glorious, if he is faithful, as he possibly could with more than one. I want here to enter my protest against this idea, for I know it is false…”

So… Ya gotta have mutiple wives to be a god and, through “marriage for all time and eternity;” i.e., celestial marriage, you keep those wives forever and beget your “spirit children.”

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the prophet Brigham Young had like 50 wives; that dude sure qualified!

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

So… Ya gotta have mutiple wives to be a god and, through “marriage for all time and eternity;” i.e., celestial marriage, you keep those wives forever and beget your “spirit children.”

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the prophet Brigham Young had like 50 wives; that dude sure qualified!

Matt:

“The Dude abides.”:whacky:

Robert

 

[PaulDupre]

What Like the Text of the Bible never Changing?

The Catholic Church is directly responsible for altering the Holy scriptures… and we all know what John Says about that (Rev 22)

Don’t beleive me the Text has been changed?

1 Tim 3:16
Undeniably great is the mystery of devotion, Who 7 was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed to the Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory.

Footnotes
7 [16] Who: the reference is to Christ, who is himself “the mystery of our devotion.” Some predominantly Western manuscripts read “which,” harmonizing the gender of the pronoun with that of the Greek word for mystery; many later (eighth/ninth century on), predominantly Byzantine manuscripts read “God,” possibly for theological reasons.

Thes Bazyntine Texts are where the KJV BIble comes from.

There you have it, friends. The Mormon, when sufficiently provoked, will always reveal his disdain for the bible. Mormons have always taught, among themselves but never for public consumption, that the bible is hopelessly corrupt and untrustworthy, and that we therefore have nowhere to go for truth but to Joseph Smith.

What spirit is it, do you suppose, that fosters this kind of anti-bible sentiment?

Paul

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Excellent point again, my rabbi Catholic friend. (I learn so much from your posts)

But I am REALLY curious about those “Bazyntine Texts” which Zclone claims the KJV “comes from.”

Silly me, I bought into the scholarship of Erasmus’ Greek manuscripts which he had obtained from Spain. You know, the ones which are considered by ALL scholars (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant and none-of-the-above) to be full of textual omissions and additions of later date.

Thank the mormon gods for Zakuska! Let’s buy a babushka for Zakuska!

Robert

Oh, Paul, where is “Bazyntine” located?

 

[PaulDupre]

Oh, Paul, where is “Bazyntine” located?

Somewhere near Athnes, I think.

 

[okieflyer]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the prophet Brigham Young had like 50 wives; that dude sure qualified!

On a lighter note that would equal out to 50 mother in laws!!!

 

[RAR]

Not in the least… Did he not tell the Apostles while still alive that

They would be rejected and Killed? And he admonished them to endure to the end.

PS… I never said the Church that he and his Apostles built was Apostate. It became Apostate when the wolves took it and tore the sheep among them. Just as Christ and the Apostles prophecied would happen.

Thank you for your response, I’ll forgive the sarcasm.

In another verse, Jesus said very clearly, quite literally in fact, that he was establishing his church on Peter, his rock. Why do so many give more credibility to verses that can be read metaphorically? In my readings, Jesus seems to be quite clear when he is speaking literally and when his is using parables.

RAR

 

[majick275]

Blasphemous? Degrees of Glory in Heaven?

Thats almost exactly what the 1st century Christians taught too using the exact same verses:

the blasphemy is that we would be gods with our own worshippers praying to us.

 

[Zakuska]

Thank you for your response, I’ll forgive the sarcasm.

In another verse, Jesus said very clearly, quite literally in fact, that he was establishing his church on Peter, his rock. Why do so many give more credibility to verses that can be read metaphorically? In my readings, Jesus seems to be quite clear when he is speaking literally and when his is using parables.

RAR

2 Tim. 1: 15
15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Doesn’t sound very Figurative to me. Here a whole trunk of the tree was lopped off. How much longer did the rest of the tree live? Apparently 70AD.

Did you know that Peter also means “Seer” ergo Christ would build his church on “Seer Stones” ( ie Revelation).from God the Father.

Sounds to me like a reference to Joseph Smith in the grove of Trees and his first vision in which he Saw God the Father and Jesus Chirst.

 

[Zakuska]

the blasphemy is that we would be gods with our own worshippers praying to us.

Nice straw man… what Mormon thinks we will have little worhsippers praying to us? CFR