Mormon 'Scripture' on those brothers: Jesus and Lucifer

[Zakuska]

I don’t think anyone really wants to debate with you anymore. We all know you are taking this all out of context. So whats the point in arguing. We know what the Scripture and Early Church Fathers mean, so we’re not going to listen to you lies.

LA LA LA LA I can’t hear you…

 

[RC_Matt]

2 Tim. 1: 15
15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Did you know that Peter also means “Seer” ergo Christ would build his church on “Seer Stones” ( ie Revelation).from God the Father.

Sounds to me like a reference to Joseph Smith in the grove of Trees and his first vision in which he Saw God the Father and Jesus Chirst.

Καγω δε σοι λεγω, οτι συ ει Πετρος, και επι ταυτη τη πετρα οικοδομησω μου την εκκλησιαν, και πυλαι αδου ου κατισχυσουσιν αυτης. Matthew 16.18, Greek

And I say also to thee, That thou art Peter (Petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16.18

The New Testament was written in Koine Greek and in that dialect both “petros” and “petra” simply meant “rock.” Peter was the first disciple to carry the Gospel to the gentiles. This scripture has absolutely nothing to do with Joseph Smith and his seer stones.

 

[PaulDupre]

Nice straw man… what Mormon thinks we will have little worhsippers praying to us? CFR

Any Mormon who has studied the Gospel Principles lesson manual currently used by the LDS Church:

These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
2. They will become gods.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father.

• Gospel Principles, Chapter 47 “Exaltation”

The manual clearly states that when you are exalted, you will have spirit children who will have the same relationship with you that you currently have with your Heavenly Father.

Q: What relationship do you have with your Heavenly Father?

A: He is your God and you worship him.

If your spirit children have that same relationship with you, then they will worship you just as you worship your Heavenly Father.

Frankly I don’t believe you when you say you didn’t know that. When I was LDS every 8 year-old knew it.

Paul

 

[majick275]

Nice straw man… what Mormon thinks we will have little worhsippers praying to us? CFR

it was right there in the gospel principles manual i linked to.

 

[RAR]

2 Tim. 1: 15
15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Doesn’t sound very Figurative to me. Here a whole trunk of the tree was lopped off. How much longer did the rest of the tree live? Apparently 70AD.

Did you know that Peter also means “Seer” ergo Christ would build his church on “Seer Stones” ( ie Revelation).from God the Father.

Sounds to me like a reference to Joseph Smith in the grove of Trees and his first vision in which he Saw God the Father and Jesus Chirst.

You quote the Apostle Paul referring to people who have turned away from him. The verse is out of context. You either did not address my comment or you don’t have a response.

RAR

 

[Zakuska]

Finally… something we can sink our teeth into:

From the LDS website:
Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59).
These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
2. They will become gods.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.
4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have–all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge.

President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: "The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments.

A very Bibilical teaching…

Rev. 20: 6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev. 21: 7
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Here is a list of Biblical verses that verify this teaching:

(Ps. 15: 1; Ps. 24: 3; Ps. 27: 4; Ps. 84: 11; Dan. 12: 3; Luke 6: 35; Luke 12: 44; John 7: 34; John 16: 15; 1 Cor. 3: 21; 1 Pet. 1: 9; 2 Pet. 1: 3; Rev. 1: 6; Rev. 21: 7)

Also from the Vatican Cathecism:

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

John 1: 12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Philip. 2: 15
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

What are “sons of God” called? Pslams 82:6 - Ye are Gods, and all of you are children of the most high.

 

[Zakuska]

Cont.

Quotes from the prophet Brigham Young:

“The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.”

Talking about your out of context quotes…

Heres the whole Discourse:
Journal of Discourses 11

Now, we as Christians desire to be saved in the kingdom of God. We desire to attain to the possession of all the blessings there are for the most faithful man or people that ever lived upon the face of the earth, even him who is said to be the father of the faithful, Abraham of old. We wish to obtain all that father Abraham obtained. I wish here to say to the Elders of Israel, and to all the members of this Church and kingdom, that it is in the hearts of many of them to wish that the doctrine of polygamy was not taught and practiced by us. It may be hard for many, and especially for the ladies, yet it is no harder for them than it is for the gentlemen. It is the word of the Lord, and I wish to say to you, and all the world, that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists at least in your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained. This is as true as that God lives. You who wish that there were no such thing in existence, if you have in your hearts to say: “We will pass along in the Church without obeying or submitting to it in our faith or believing this order, because, for aught that we know, this community may be broken up yet, and we may have lucrative offices offered to us; we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character and office, etc,”—the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.

The Lord gave a revelation through Joseph Smith, His servant; and we have believed and practiced it. Now, then, it is said that this must be done away before we are permitted to receive our place as a State in the Union. It may be, or it may not be. One of the twin relics—slavery—they say, is abolished. I do not, however, wish to speak about this; but if slavery and oppression and iron-handed cruelty are not more felt by the blacks to-day than before, I am glad of it. My heart is pained for that unfortunate race of men. One twin relic having been strangled, the other, they say, must next be destroyed. It is they and God for it, and you will all find that out. It is not Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball and Daniel H. Wells and the Elders of Israel they are fighting against; but it is the Lord Almighty. What is the Lord going to do? He is going to do just as he pleases, and the world cannot help themselves.

Whats that???

I can be saved in the celestial Kingdom without accpeting Polygamy? I can come into Gods presence without accepting Polygmay? True I forfeit some blessings…

Tell me… if your wife was barren and couldn’t have any children… what would you do? Would you follow the Bible Law of seregates? And whats this “polygamist in your faith” Idea about anyway?

 

[Zakuska]

“Some people have supposed that the doctrine of plural marriage was a sort of superfluity, or nonessential to the salvation of mankind. In other words, some of the Saints have said, and believe that a man with one wife, sealed to him by the authority of the Priesthood for time and eternity, will receive an exaltation as great and glorious, if he is faithful, as he possibly could with more than one. I want here to enter my protest against this idea, for I know it is false…”

So… Ya gotta have mutiple wives to be a god and, through “marriage for all time and eternity;” i.e., celestial marriage, you keep those wives forever and beget your “spirit children.”

Don’t really need to comment that its out of context… did you notice the enuendo (ie …)? Thats the first flag that tells us something missing. Go see if you can see what. The Links in the last post.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the prophet Brigham Young had like 50 wives; that dude sure qualified!

27

home.utah.edu/~jay/Brigham_Young/Brigham_Young.html

 

[Zakuska]

These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.

I fail to see how one jumps to the conclusion that this means “worship”.

 

[PaulDupre]

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

 

[RC_Matt]

Cont.

Whats that???

I can be saved in the celestial Kingdom without accpeting Polygamy? I can come into Gods presence without accepting Polygmay? True I forfeit some blessings…

Wrong dude, you must ACCEPT polygamy or you cannot enter into the celestial glory, i.e., the celestial kingdom, the presence of god. You needn’t practice it; but in that event you don’t get to become a god, have your own planet, beget “spirit children” to poplulate it and all that cool stuff. That’s what we were discussing.

Tell me… if your wife was barren and couldn’t have any children… what would you do? Would you follow the Bible Law of seregates?

What’s up with this question? If my wife were unable to bear children, we would adopt. Sorry to disappoint you, but I wouldn’t go trolling for another wife if that’s where you’re trying to go.

And whats this “polygamist in your faith” Idea about anyway?

It means that you must ACCEPT polygamy, even if you don’t practice it, otherwise no celestial glory at all; not even the “light” version.

I can’t believe that I have to explain this stuff to YOU.

As has been explained to me by numerous Mormons, the purpose of celestial polygamy is to ensure that all worthy women can be admitted to the celestial kingdom. Women consist of about 50% of the population and women are usually more virtuous than men, therefore there are more women than men qualified for celestial glory (as well as those who never married). Seeing as women cannot enter the celestial kingdom without a worthy husband to bring them through “the veil,” men take multiple wives in the afterlife.

 

[RC_Matt]

Don’t really need to comment that its out of context… did you notice the enuendo (ie …)? Thats the first flag that tells us something missing. Go see if you can see what. The Links in the last post.

See my prior post.

27

home.utah.edu/~jay/Brigham_Young/Brigham_Young.html

Yup, you’re right, guess he only had 27 wives.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

See my prior post.

Yup, you’re right, guess he only had 27 wives.

But at least 23 girlfriends.

Robert

 

[holdencaulfield]

But at least 23 girlfriends.

Robert

Probably true. Hey I thought we were ignoring him?

 

[Zakuska]

Καγω δε σοι λεγω, οτι συ ει Πετρος, και επι ταυτη τη πετρα οικοδομησω μου την εκκλησιαν, και πυλαι αδου ου κατισχυσουσιν αυτης. Matthew 16.18, Greek

And I say also to thee, That thou art Peter (Petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16.18

The New Testament was written in Koine Greek and in that dialect both “petros” and “petra” simply meant “rock.” Peter was the first disciple to carry the Gospel to the gentiles. This scripture has absolutely nothing to do with Joseph Smith and his seer stones.

You might have a point If infact Peter himself where the rock Christ was refering to.

και επάνω σε σας θα χτίσω την εκκλησία μου
and upon you i will build my church

The rock christ was refering to was “revelation”"

 

[Zakuska]

Somewhere near Athnes, I think.

When you cant beat them… make fun of their spelling.

 

[Zakuska]

Wrong dude, you must ACCEPT polygamy or you cannot enter into the celestial glory, i.e., the celestial kingdom, the presence of god. You needn’t practice it; but in that event you don’t get to become a god, have your own planet, beget “spirit children” to poplulate it and all that cool stuff. That’s what we were discussing.

Whats wrong with this picture?

The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.

What’s up with this question? If my wife were unable to bear children, we would adopt. Sorry to disappoint you, but I wouldn’t go trolling for another wife if that’s where you’re trying to go.

I sure hope your wife cant grizzly “bear” any children!

Why not Abraham did, so did Jacob/Israel? God slew Onan because he did not raise kids for his brother with his sister inlaw. (Per-The Law of the Leverite)

Gen 38
8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

It means that you must ACCEPT polygamy, even if you don’t practice it, otherwise no celestial glory at all; not even the “light” version.

I can’t believe that I have to explain this stuff to YOU.

As has been explained to me by numerous Mormons, the purpose of celestial polygamy is to ensure that all worthy women can be admitted to the celestial kingdom. Women consist of about 50% of the population and women are usually more virtuous than men, therefore there are more women than men qualified for celestial glory (as well as those who never married). Seeing as women cannot enter the celestial kingdom without a worthy husband to bring them through “the veil,” men take multiple wives in the afterlife.

PS. Ive accepted Polygamy in my heart… if God commanded me to do it. But no need to worry about it since the church abandoned the practice. And my wife has given three lovely little Zaks.

 

[RC_Matt]

Whats wrong with this picture?

The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.

Uh, yeah, it is bizarre; but it is literally what Brigham Young taught and, as part of the D&C, is canonized Mormon scripture. Ya gotta PRACTICE polygamy if ya wanna be a god; otherwise you may enter into the celestial kingdom, but ya don’t get ALL the perqs. Since you have accepted polygamy, you could qualify for the celestial kingdom; but you couldn’t enter into the fullness of celestial glory unless you practiced celestial polygamy.

I sure hope your wife cant grizzly “bear” any children!

Dude,YOU obviously didn’t go to a Catholic elementary school. Women BEAR children, which do a very good job of keeping Matt’s wallet BARE.

Why not Abraham did, so did Jacob/Israel? God slew Onan because he did not raise kids for his brother with his sister inlaw. (Per-The Law of the Leverite)

Gen 38
8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

The response to this is long winded and I don’t have time to get into it right now. Mormons have an entirely different interpretation of scripture than do Christians. In any case, this is Old Testament material, which was superseded by the Gospel; i.e., the New Covenant. If you check your bible, I think it’s in Matthew, you’ll find that Jesus spoke about two becoming one flesh, not three, four, five, 27, etc.

Ive accepted Polygamy in my heart… if God commanded me to do it. But no need to worry about it since the church abandoned the practice. And my wife has given three lovely little Zaks.

Cool! Believe me, I’ve got my share of diaper and binkie duty too…

 

[RC_Matt]

You might have a point If infact Peter himself where the rock Christ was refering to.

και επάνω σε σας θα χτίσω την εκκλησία μου
and upon you i will build my church

The rock christ was refering to was “revelation”"

That’s a difference of interpretation and the two are irreconcilable; in light of the entire passage, your interpretation does not make sense.

 

[Zakuska]

Uh, yeah, it is bizarre; but it is literally what Brigham Young taught and, as part of the D&C, is canonized Mormon scripture. Ya gotta PRACTICE polygamy if ya wanna be a god; otherwise you may enter into the celestial kingdom, but ya don’t get ALL the perqs. Since you have accepted polygamy, you could qualify for the celestial kingdom; but you couldn’t enter into the fullness of celestial glory unless you practiced celestial polygamy.

A no… you have to be a Polygamist at least in faith. No practice necessary. If God commands it I’ll do it.

Dude,YOU obviously didn’t go to a Catholic elementary school. Women BEAR children, which do a very good job of keeping Matt’s wallet BARE.

Watchu talkin about Willis?!

You tellin me the Bible is mistranslated?

Gen. 21: 3
3 And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.

The response to this is long winded and I don’t have time to get into it right now. Mormons have an entirely different interpretation of scripture than do Christians. In any case, this is Old Testament material, which was superseded by the Gospel; i.e., the New Covenant. If you check your bible, I think it’s in Matthew, you’ll find that Jesus spoke about two becoming one flesh, not three, four, five, 27, etc.

Yet we still are to live the 10 commandments (Romans 13) looks like some one is picking and choosing what parts of the bible the like and throwing away the rest.