Mormon 'Scripture' on those brothers: Jesus and Lucifer

[Zakuska]

Dear Zakuska,

What do you think God was doing for the past two millenia since the Apostasy you mentioned? In the OT, God sent the prophets almost for all periods until Jesus came.

You are eluding to John as the Last prophet…(a very common scriptural misinterpretation) If John was the last prophet why where their still prophets IN the church over 60 years after the fact? Read Pauls writings… he talked with Prophets all the time.

Heres one example…

1 Cor 14
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Another good one…

Acts 11
27 ¶ And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
30 Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.

This droubt happend 10 years after Christs ressurection:

roman-britain.org/people/claudius.htm

 

[NewSeeker]

Zakuska said -

Persoanlly. I… Like Martin Luther, John Calvin, Welsey and many others don’t hold that it happened until possibly 570AD,

If so, then prior to 570 the church was still legitimate and still bore priesthood authority. That’s interesting, cause that church pre-570 celebrated the Eucharist, had a liturgical form of worship, venerated Mary, and viewed communion as literally Christ’s flesh and blood. So then Zakuska - be consistent and logical. Come join that legitimate church. Enroll in RCIA - like me - and become a Catholic!

NewSeeker

 

[RC_Matt]

CFR…

The Church fathers would disagree profoundly with you.

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young?

 

[Zakuska]

New Seeker,

Not what I said at all…

There was great turmoil in the church during this time. Gnostics where still alive how do we now they wheres the true orthodoxy?

We also see the transition from the absolute necessity of emersion Baptism of adults to Baptism of Infants by sprinkling also during this time.

The Wolves where ravaging the sheeps during this time… and who knows what came up.

 

[Zakuska]

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young?

Nope the ones before Nicea.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Course I beleive the Bible. More literally than most I know…

No you don’t.

According to the church fathers the particular verse you are eluding to means they have never been divorced. What happens if they marry… their first wife dies… can they remarry and still be a Bishop?

I think so, although it doesn’t matter. Why don’t you answer the question this thread is actually about. Seeing as how this thread has gotten no where.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Nope the ones before Nicea.

They did not don’t lie.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

New Seeker,

Not what I said at all…

The goofy Book of Mormon would be my guess:thumbsup:

Robert

 

[East_Anglican]

Polygamy is a disgusting sin, and a mockery to women. You should be ashamed of yourself for saying that you would like to commit that sin.

 

[East_Anglican]

No mormon poster (Zakuska, Paul G, PaPa, Good Daughter, Zerinus, whyme, BC Poulson) stepped forward to
**
Address the mormon “scripture” equating Jesus to Lucifer**

 

[East_Anglican]

Course I beleive the Bible. More literally than most I know…

Do you believe John 1:1 litrally?

In the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was God.

The word was God. The word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus is God. Not a god, God!

According to the church fathers the particular verse you are eluding to means they have never been divorced. What happens if they marry… their first wife dies… can they remarry and still be a Bishop?

I’ve studied The Church Fathers and I have never heard this before. Stop making things up. I know your whole religion is made up but stop trying to make up mine.

 

[East_Anglican]

CFR…

The Church fathers would disagree profoundly with you.

One should read The Church Fathers through the real Jesus Christ, not through the beliefs of Mormonism.

Come home!

 

[East_Anglican]

You are eluding to John as the Last prophet…(a very common scriptural misinterpretation) If John was the last prophet why where their still prophets IN the church over 60 years after the fact? Read Pauls writings… he talked with Prophets all the time.

Heres one example…

1 Cor 14
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Another good one…

Acts 11
27 ¶ And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
30 Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.

This droubt happend 10 years after Christs ressurection:

roman-britain.org/people/claudius.htm

Biblical prophets always backs up the the Biblical Prophets before them and the biblical prophets before them back them up.

Joseph Smith has no one before him to back him up.

Also, God would never tell a Prophet to rebuild his Church. The only builder of The Church is Jesus Christ.

Yes, there has always been prophets in The Church. The differance is the prophets before them back them up. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young et al, have no one to back them up.

This is how we know Mormonism is wrong. Mormonism claims Jesus Christ lost and the gates mof hell prevailed against The Church. No prophet before Joseph Smith would dare utter such blasphemy.

 

[East_Anglican]

Why don’t you answer the question this thread is actually about. Seeing as how this thread has gotten no where

Zakusa can’t answer the original question without sounding ridiculous. Therefore he is going round the houses and evading the actual question.

Zakusa knows what we believe makes more sense. He’s just being stubborn. He is posting and pretending he is answering our questions and his beliefs are holding up and just like Mormonism as a whole, it is a delusion .

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Keep hammering away at these mormon trolls:

keep the discussion focused on THEIR beliefs, THEIR ‘scripture’, and they will either fade away into the delusional cloud of multiple gods, godesses and godettes or (God willing) see the Light and come to the Christian faith.

Support our fellow Christians in persistently asking the fundamental questions of the beginnings of the mormon movement.

Read their ‘scriptures’ (pray for mercy to stay awake) and throw the quotes onto the threads.

When a mormon poster answers by bringing up a tangental or previously unmentioned topic; whip that mule and bring it back in line.

This is the good fight, these are good people in the grips of Pharisical mumbo jumbo; keep writing, keep questioning, keep pestering them to stay focused, and keep praying for their weak and deluded souls.

Robert

 

[PaulDupre]

Biblical prophets always backs up the the Biblical Prophets before them and the biblical prophets before them back them up.

Joseph Smith has no one before him to back him up.

Also, God would never tell a Prophet to rebuild his Church. The only builder of The Church is Jesus Christ.

Yes, there has always been prophets in The Church. The differance is the prophets before them back them up. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young et al, have no one to back them up.

It’s even worse than that. Brigham Young declared, as a prophet, that every sermon he edited and published to the world was scripture every bit as good as the bible. His followers were expected to believe and follow that declaration as if it came from God’s own mouth. And they did.

Brigham young and his successors taught and published to the world (scripture!) for more than 100 years that the blacks would never receive the priesthood until the millenium, after every non-black had had the chance first. The people were expected to believe that as if it came from God’s own mouth. And they did.

Then Spencer W. Kimball declared in 1978 that he had received a revelation that then it was time for the blacks to hold the priesthood. The people were expected to believe it as if it came from Gods own mouth. And we did.

What we didn’t consider at that time was this:

If Brigham Young and his successors were speaking as true prophets of God, then Spencer W. Kimball did not receive a revelation and thus lied and was not a true prophet.

If Spencer W. Kimball really received that revelation and spoke as a true prophet of God, then Brigham Young and his successors were not true prophets.

One or the other must be true, or else it makes the Mormon god out to be an incompetent fool who can’t know the future and can’t keep his time-line straight.

Prophets in the bible did not contradict one another. But they were true prophets.

The fact is that Mormons cannot be sure that anything their prophet says is true. Anything the prophet declares to be true and the will of God can be overturned and declared false by any succeeding prophet.

And yet Mormons are expected to believe and follow whatever the prophet says as though it comes from God’s own mouth.

And they do.

 

[PaulDupre]

Course I beleive the Bible. More literally than most I know…

According to the church fathers the particular verse you are eluding to means they have never been divorced. What happens if they marry… their first wife dies… can they remarry and still be a Bishop?

Yes, of course. When a man’s wife dies, he is no longer married. All of the ECFs were very clear on this, as is the bible and the modern church.

When a man remarries after the death of his wife, he is still the husband of one wife.

But if a man divorces his wife, he is still married to her in the eyes of God and the church. If he marries a second time, he is no longer the husband of one wife.

Paul

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Here it is.

What do our mormon friends and readers think of their ‘scripture’ here? Can you explain this for us?

"We need a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, "Whom shall I send? Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, ‘Here am I, send me.’ " [Abraham 3:27]

"Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, ‘Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it.’ " [Moses 4:1]

I have heard of this accusation being tossed out by Catholics in the past, but I never saw proof so I took it with a grain of salt, I didnt realize that it was actually “Scripture”! This is DEFINITELY going in my apologetics arsenal.

I don’t see anything like THIS in the Scriptures!

What does this mean???

It means someone has a LOT of explaining to do.

Mormon pantheology reminds me of Saxon’s poem about the six blind men and the elephant.

The Elephant is the Church, it’s been there since Pentacost. Of course, taking a part for the whole (the mormon exegesis of choice) will always give a partial, incomplete [sometimes asinine] interpretation.

Ok, you got me curious here with this Blind men and Elephant thing…I just HAD to look it up:
wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/1/?letter=B&spage=3

ROFLMAO!

BOOKMARK!!!

They have all these quotes about “God” and “father” and “eternal” and such but they mean different things at different times…and totally misunderstanding the Christian concept of an eternal (no progression required), Almighty (nothing ever stronger), One (numerically, not “three gods in one purpose”), and perfect (not perfected"), God.

How can you be a LITERAL father of SPIRIT children? What is this “goddess” WIFE? This confusion drives one nuts and can only be from the pit of hell.

I dont say that to be mean, but it is simply crazy. I seek Truth, and that means having a consistent theological foundation and historical roots.

 

[holdencaulfield]

They have all these quotes about “God” and “father” and “eternal” and such but they mean different things at different times…and totally misunderstanding the Christian concept of an eternal (no progression required), Almighty (nothing ever stronger), One (numerically, not “three gods in one purpose”), and perfect (not perfected"), God.

How can you be a LITERAL father of SPIRIT children? What is this “goddess” WIFE? This confusion drives one nuts and can only be from the pit of hell.

I dont say that to be mean, but it is simply crazy. I seek Truth, and that means having a consistent theological foundation and historical roots.

Yep I much of pagan lies.

 

[East_Anglican]

It’s even worse than that. Brigham Young declared, as a prophet, that every sermon he edited and published to the world was scripture every bit as good as the bible. His followers were expected to believe and follow that declaration as if it came from God’s own mouth. And they did.

Brigham young and his successors taught and published to the world (scripture!) for more than 100 years that the blacks would never receive the priesthood until the millenium, after every non-black had had the chance first. The people were expected to believe that as if it came from God’s own mouth. And they did.

Then Spencer W. Kimball declared in 1978 that he had received a revelation that then it was time for the blacks to hold the priesthood. The people were expected to believe it as if it came from Gods own mouth. And we did.

What we didn’t consider at that time was this:

If Brigham Young and his successors were speaking as true prophets of God, then Spencer W. Kimball did not receive a revelation and thus lied and was not a true prophet.

If Spencer W. Kimball really received that revelation and spoke as a true prophet of God, then Brigham Young and his successors were not true prophets.

One or the other must be true, or else it makes the Mormon god out to be an incompetent fool who can’t know the future and can’t keep his time-line straight.

Prophets in the bible did not contradict one another. But they were true prophets.

The fact is that Mormons cannot be sure that anything their prophet says is true. Anything the prophet declares to be true and the will of God can be overturned and declared false by any succeeding prophet.

And yet Mormons are expected to believe and follow whatever the prophet says as though it comes from God’s own mouth.

And they do.

I thought blacks could only join the Mormon church because JFK made it ilegal for them not to admit them.

This means that not only is the mormon god an incompetant fool who gets his time line muddled up, but the mormon god also had to bow to the American constitutuion.

How can anyone believe that nonsense? :