Mormon 'Scripture' on those brothers: Jesus and Lucifer

[East_Anglican]

You Mormon blasphemers are so smart. If it wasn’t for the fact that your entire religion was made up, and that you people lie for fun…well idk.

Holdencaulfield,

They’re not that smart.

Zakuska,

You can quote as many Church Fathers as you like, it makes you a bad Mormon. We know that you Mormons believe that the original teachings were lost after the Apostles died so to use people from Church history, is to say that your belief that the original teachings of Christ and the apostles was lost after they died isn’t true.

 

[East_Anglican]

Im already in Christianity…

I invite you to enlarge yourself in it.

Why do you forbid to become part of HIS church…

“The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints”

1, What is Christianity to you?

We have The Bible and 2000 years of history to back up our claim that what we are in is Christianity. You just have an adulterer who dodged paying taxes and claimed to be a prophet and not even 200 years of history.

2, We’ll enlarge it by getting you in it.

Resistance is futile because we’re praying for you.

Your occultic underwear will not protect you from our prayers.

2, The church you are a member of is not The Church of Christ.

Your church isn’t even 200 years old. The Church Christ is building that the gates of hell have not prevailed against is eternal.

3, The person you think is Jesus Christ is The Spirit of Anti-Christ.

We know this because we know the real Jesus Christ.

4, Mormons are not saints but by our prayers and love for you, you may become one.

Resistance is futile because we’re praying for you.

Your occultic underwear will not protect you from our prayers.

 

[East_Anglican]

The LDS don’t beleive in the Trinity.

They beleive in God the eternal father and is his son Jesus Chirst and in the Holy Ghost.

They are three divine beings in One Godhead.

Just as Adam and Eve are Two Mortal beings in One Flesh.

And just how Athanasius explains it.

Mormons believe in three gods. It’s polythiestic nonsense. Islam is closer to Christianity than Mormonism.

 

[East_Anglican]

here is what mormons are teaching in their church today on this subject:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=32c41b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=7eab7befabc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1&contentLocale=0

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=32c41b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=f04a7befabc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1&contentLocale=0

so as you can see it is quite blasphemous.

Yuk.

 

[Zakuska]

Holdencaulfield,

They’re not that smart.

Zakuska,

You can quote as many Church Fathers as you like, it makes you a bad Mormon. We know that you Mormons believe that the original teachings were lost after the Apostles died so to use people from Church history, is to say that your belief that the original teachings of Christ and the apostles was lost after they died isn’t true.

On the contrary… We’ve never given an excact date when it happened. Persoanlly. I… Like Martin Luther, John Calvin, Welsey and many others don’t hold that it happened until possibly 570AD,

Example We see the teaching on Baptism Morph over that period of time. From an Absolute necessity for Salvation Given to new Adult Prosylites to a sprinkling cermony given infants. And many such other things.

The Church Fathers give us plenty of proof that the Apostasy did indeed happened.

 

[Zakuska]

here is what mormons are teaching in their church today on this subject:

so as you can see it is quite blasphemous.

Blasphemous? Degrees of Glory in Heaven?

Thats almost exactly what the 1st century Christians taught too using the exact same verses:

Another distinction between these kingdoms is that those who receive Celestial glory will reside in the presence of the Father Himself, while those in the Terrestrial kingdom will receive the presence of the Son, and those in the Telestial will have the Holy Ghost to minister to them.10

What marvelous light this vision has thrown upon obscure Bible passages! For example, what good does it do to know that there are three heavens if one does not know anything about them? Another example of a passage illuminated by this revelation is Paul’s description of the glory of the resurrected body:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead.11

In the vision of the kingdoms of glory, the Lord revealed that this passage is not just a comparison of earthly bodies with heavenly, but also a reference to the fact that there are three different major levels of glory to which a body can be resurrected:

And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one. And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one. And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differeth from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world.12

**Origen, in the early third century, revealed that the early Church interpreted this passage in essentially the same way: **

Our understanding of the passage indeed is, that the apostle, wishing to describe the great difference among those who rise again in glory, i.e., of the saints, borrowed a comparison from the heavenly bodies, saying, "One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, another the glory of the stars."13

**He further explained that the highest of the three degrees is associated with the Father, and the second degree with the Son:

And some men are connected with the Father, being part of Him, and next to these, those whom our argument now brings into clearer light, those who have come to the Saviour and take their stand entirely in Him. And third are those of whom we spoke before, who reckon the sun and the moon and the stars to be gods, and take their stand by them. And in the fourth and last place those who submit to soulless and dead idols.14 **

We shall see that Origen’s doctrine of a fourth degree for the very wicked is fairly consistent with LDS belief, as well.

This doctrine goes back much further than Origen, however. Irenaeus preserved the same tradition which had supposedly come from the elders who knew the Apostles. Many think he received it from Papias:

And as the presbyters say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy. [They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, “In My Father’s house are many mansions.” For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; also that they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father, and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, "For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."15

Clement of Alexandria also expressed belief in the three degrees, and echoed the Lord’s revelation to Joseph Smith that those in the highest degree "are gods, even the sons of God."16

Conformably, therefore, there are various abodes, according to the worth of those who have believed… These chosen abodes, which are three, are indicated by the numbers in the Gospel–the thirty, the sixty, the hundred. And the perfect inheritance belongs to those who attain to “a perfect man,” according to the image of the Lord… To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord Himself taught.17

**Clement also preached that the three gradations of glory are procured by virtue of three types of actions: **

[Clement of Alexandria] reckons three kinds of actions, the first of which is… right or perfect action, which is characteristic of the perfect man and Gnostic alone, and raises him to the height of glory. The second is the class of… medium, or intermediate actions, which are done by less perfect believers, and procure a lower grade of glory. In the third place he reckons sinful actions, which are done by those who fall away from salvation.18

 

[RAR]

The Church Fathers give us plenty of proof that the Apostasy did indeed happened.

I don’t agree with the above statement, but here is another thought… if the Great Apostasy happened, Jesus came in vain.

It doesn’t seem to follow that God would take on human flesh, die for our sinful natures, then establish an apostate church. It would seem to me that he would have waited until a more modern time to reveal himself… in fact, that may make for a good discussion in itself.

RAR

 

[holdencaulfield]

Aaaa… thats not how the early Christians such as Justin interpreted it… see my earlier posts. (See Posts #17, #18, #19, #20, #21, #22)

Again, you are taking this way out of context. By gods he meant symbolically. All Christians at the time believed in Monotheism.

Also Christ used the verse to defend himself against the Pharasees who were going to Stone him… because he was making himself equal to God. If the verse is speaking of “humans who think they are gods” then it makes no sense for Christ to use the verse in defense of his Divinity. Nor does it explain why the Pharasees where going to stone him but then where unarmed by their own scripture.

He was saying that if God can call mortal un-divine humans gods, then He can call himself God.

What you are advocating is breaking scripture, and stoning Christ along with the Pharasees.

Good one. If you want to get to name calling, heres one blasphemer. That’s what everyone who follows the made up teachings of Joseph Smith are.

Another thing… telling a Human he is going to “Die like Himself” is a little redundant… dontcha think?

No this was God’s way of rebuking the idea that men can become God.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I don’t agree with the above statement, but here is another thought… if the Great Apostasy happened, Jesus came in vain.

It doesn’t seem to follow that God would take on human flesh, die for our sinful natures, then establish an apostate church. It would seem to me that he would have waited until a more modern time to reveal himself… in fact, that may make for a good discussion in itself.

RAR

Quite true. Also since all the things the Early Church Fathers say agree with what the Bible says, and what the Catholic Church teaches today, we can see that no apostasy occurred.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Blasphemous? Degrees of Glory in Heaven?

Thats almost exactly what the 1st century Christians taught too using the exact same verses:

If Mormons could understand Scripture they wouldn’t be Mormons. They have been brainwashed to the point where reason is no longer possible.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Holdencaulfield,

They’re not that smart.

Zakuska,

You can quote as many Church Fathers as you like, it makes you a bad Mormon. We know that you Mormons believe that the original teachings were lost after the Apostles died so to use people from Church history, is to say that your belief that the original teachings of Christ and the apostles was lost after they died isn’t true.

Quite true. Also all he is doing is taking what noble people such as St. Justin Martyr said and wrote and died for it out of context. You are trying to destroy their sacrifice.

 

[holdencaulfield]

If God was once a man (like Jesus) who progressed sinlessly to exaltation, then the doctrine of eternal progression indicates that there are two kinds of deity “out there”: gods (like Elohim and Jesus) who led sinless lives and who were saviors of their own planets and gods like you and me who sinned, were redeemed by their own savior gods, and who were then elevated to godhood themselves. That seems to follow logically from what you are proposing Zak.

But that sidesteps the real issue: there is ample scriptural evidence (as you point out) that we can be gods (theosis) in the small “g” sense: through Christ’s redemption, we can take on his perfect, holy, and immortal nature- we will be “gods”. There is ZERO scriptural evidence for Joseph Smith’s imaginative, yet erroneous, elaboration of this doctrine. We will NOT become “Gods” and take on the Father’s power, might, and majesty, and end up creating worlds and populating them with our own spirit offspring who will worship us as their as their God. This is heretical nonsense.

There is only one God, eternal and unchangable, who never was a man, most certainly does not dwell on a planet near Kolob, but transcends space and time and has always been God.

NS

Thank You. :clapping:

 

[holdencaulfield]

1, What is Christianity to you?

We have The Bible and 2000 years of history to back up our claim that what we are in is Christianity. You just have an adulterer who dodged paying taxes and claimed to be a prophet and not even 200 years of history.

Quite true. I think Joseph Smith had quite a fun time stealing peoples wives.

2, We’ll enlarge it by getting you in it.

Resistance is futile because we’re praying for you.

Your occultic underwear will not protect you from our prayers.

You’re right. In fact I prayed for this Mormon and asked St. Justin Martyr to pray for him, because he seemed to have so much fun taking his words out of context.

2, The church you are a member of is not The Church of Christ.

Your church isn’t even 200 years old. The Church Christ is building that the gates of hell have not prevailed against is eternal.

I think their church (cult) is already two feet into Hell.

3, The person you think is Jesus Christ is The Spirit of Anti-Christ.

We know this because we know the real Jesus Christ.

True St. John did say that the anti-Christ had many of the same characteristics of Christ, however was a lier.

4, Mormons are not saints but by our prayers and love for you, you may become one.

Resistance is futile because we’re praying for you.

Your occultic underwear will not protect you from our prayers.

We will continue to pray that you will accept Christ.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Mormons believe in three gods. It’s polythiestic nonsense. Islam is closer to Christianity than Mormonism.

It is. That’s quite true. So is Judaism. Last time I looked Monotheism is a big deal in Christianity, not polytheism.

 

[holdencaulfield]

On the contrary… We’ve never given an excact date when it happened. Persoanlly. I… Like Martin Luther, John Calvin, Welsey and many others don’t hold that it happened until possibly 570AD,

Example We see the teaching on Baptism Morph over that period of time. From an Absolute necessity for Salvation Given to new Adult Prosylites to a sprinkling cermony given infants. And many such other things.

The Church Fathers give us plenty of proof that the Apostasy did indeed happened.

Good one, that satanic ritual you do is nothing like Baptism. Nice Try though.

 

[RC_Matt]

You didn’t answer his question.

No surprise there, this one doesn’t seem to have an answer.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

No surprise there, this one doesn’t seem to have an answer.

But they DO answer, Matt, it’s just that their answers vary with whomever they are addressing.

Mormon pantheology reminds me of Saxon’s poem about the six blind men and the elephant.

The Elephant is the Church, it’s been there since Pentacost. Of course, taking a part for the whole (the mormon exegesis of choice) will always give a partial, incomplete [sometimes asinine] interpretation.

But hey, what do we expect when their recently deceased Prophet cum President cum CEO Hinkley told Larry King that his church welcomes people of all faiths, “for the the good they can bring and add to our faith.”

MORMONISM: a business in search of a cultural identity.

Robert

 

[RC_Matt]

Blasphemous?

Thats almost exactly what the 1st century Christians taught too using the exact same verses:

I don’t think anybody is saying that Mormonism is bad, or that Mormons will spend eternity gnashing their teeth in the eternal lake of fire, or any of that stuff. I think the message that people are trying to convey is that Mormonism is not a Christian faith for the same reason that Judaism and Islam are not Christian faiths. For example, the following quotes from Brigham Young:

"How are you going to get your resurrection? You will get it by the President of resurrection, and that is Joseph Smith, Jun. Hear it all ye ends of the earth; if you ever enter into the kingdom of God it is because Joseph Smith let you go there. This will apply to Jews and Gentiles, to the bond, and the free; to friends and foes; no man or woman in this generation will get a resurrection and be crowned without Joseph Smith saying so. The man who was martyred in Carthage Jail, State of Illinois, holds the keys of life and death to this dispensation…”

“From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up of things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are - I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent.”

Sorry dude, but that’s NOT Christianity by any stretch of the imagination. Christians believe that salvation comes from Jesus Christ, NOT Joseph Smith. Christians do NOT believe that secret handshakes and passwords are required to get into heaven; give me a break, heaven’s not a tree-fort in the backyard. You can knock yourself out quoting scripture, but I can assure you that no first century Christian or Church Father ever taught THAT kind of stuff. Salvation comes from Jesus alone; Joseph Smith and sophomoric Masonic rituals have nothing to do with it. I don’t mean to be disrespectful, nor to say that Mormons don’t largely live what we would consider to be Christian lives (as do lots of Jews, Buddhists, etc.), but it is not a Christian faith and trying to promote it to people as such is patently ridiculous

 

[RC_Matt]

The only place Ive ever seen this written down is in an unoffical Biogbraphy of Joseph Fielding Smith.
]

Sounds to me like you’re trying to say, “I don’t know that we teach that.” If you want to see it written in some other places, you can start with the LDS website.

 

[Zakuska]

I don’t agree with the above statement, but here is another thought… if the Great Apostasy happened, Jesus came in vain.

Not in the least… Did he not tell the Apostles while still alive that

They would be rejected and Killed? And he admonished them to endure to the end.

It doesn’t seem to follow that God would take on human flesh, die for our sinful natures, then establish an apostate church. It would seem to me that he would have waited until a more modern time to reveal himself… in fact, that may make for a good discussion in itself.

RAR

PS… I never said the Church that he and his Apostles built was Apostate. It became Apostate when the wolves took it and tore the sheep among them. Just as Christ and the Apostles prophecied would happen.